Vegans are correct, people just don’t want to change their lifestyle. I am not a vegan (yet) for what it’s worth, but they are definitely correct.
Would you like to go vegan and need advice?
Not the same person, but I’m in a similar position, just further along. Getting meat out of my diet was actually really trivial. Cheese is the big problem.
Fully vegan when I cook at home, but vegan options in restaurants and fast food are non-existent where I live, so I have cheese whenever I eat out. I’ve also come to terms with the fact I can never be fully vegan because I have 2 cats who need their cat food.
That’s still a big improvement. Even if you don’t go full vegan, cutting out meat has massive benefits
Dairy contains a morphine-like substance so baby calves are drawn to it. Cheese is literally addictive.
While many scientists believe cats to be obligate carnivores, one study attempted to show that many of the studies conducted in plant-based diets to not show any detrimental effects, when the test wasn’t conducted poorly or there was already a selection bias in place.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9860667/
Just something to consider. This doesn’t cement veganism for domestic felines, but it does show that better studies need to be conducted.
Cheese is literally addictive
I’m aware, but I don’t eat cheese out of choice. The times I do eat cheese are because I’m in a restaurant with family/friends and my options are being hungry the whole night, eating meat, or eating a salad with cheese in it. With those options, I take the cheese. Again, I don’t eat cheese at home.
This doesn’t cement veganism for domestic felines, but it does show that better studies need to be conducted
Fair enough. I’ll keep an eye out, but I’m immediately skeptical because unlike us humans, cats are naturally carnivorous.
If you’re offering, im always looking for good cheese, yogurt or dairy substitutes
Honestly, I’ve stopped chasing substitutes a while ago. Giving up meat and dairy is going to be a lifestyle change, that’s why people struggle so much with it. You can’t expect to just sub in imitations and keep eating the same foods. They’re not close enough to fool anyone, and they’re usually expensive and unhealthy.
The best way eat vegan is to fill your diet with minimally processed legumes, grains, fruits, and vegetables. Learn to cook a few staple meals from cultural cuisines where animal products are expensive (most cultures outside US/Canada and Western Europe) and you’ll realize how much great food you can make with a few simple ingredients and one or two pots. A huge number of them fall into the same basic formula, so if you learn one, you can easily make them all. Plus, it’s much, much cheaper than eating meat.
I’m not vegan but I do eat 95% vegan because my wife is and I agreed to buy and cook solely vegan in the house. I come from a culture with plenty of (accidentally) vegan home cooking already, so it wasn’t hard at all. But those substitutes are gross to me. Apologies to those who like them.
Could you share some suggestions for the 1-2 pot recipes with a variation or two to demonstrate? I’ve started stocking up on oatmeal and frozen fruit, then frozen veggies that I season in the air fryer. Outside of that things like hummus, green bean casserole and chili are my go-tos. I’m not exactly a great cook but I’m trying to experiment more slowly replacing other simple shit like pizza rolls, bacon and eggs, etc. Especially if I can do large quantities to freeze and save leftovers
Sure. I posted the “formula” these recipes below:
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Fry hard veggies in oil until soft - can be onions, leeks, carrots, celery, potatoes etc.
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Add spices, soft veggies, and/or pastes and stir to form a sauce - tomatoes, peppers, garlic, ginger, etc.
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Stir in your beans/chickpeas/lentils/peas. Most beans should be cooked, lentils and peas usually can be dry/raw.
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Add water, bring to a boil, and simmer. Amount and time depends on if you want a soup, stew, or just some sauce.
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Add leafy greens and anything that should be dissolved - spinach, kale, lemon, vinegar, sugar, cilantro etc.
So here is a really simple one I make at least once a week, as you can eat it hot or cold, with or without rice. It makes a great packed lunch. You can make the beans or chickpeas ahead of time or use a 30 oz can, but cooking them is much cheaper. Either way, make sure you rinse them off. I put in 1 cup dry beans/chickpeas (makes 3 cups cooked) in my Instant Pot with 4 cups water for 25 minutes for beans, 35 for chickpeas, instant release. Then I use the pot to cook the meal.
Also, you can chop and freeze most hard veggies (carrots, leeks, onions, celery, ginger, garlic). They aren’t as good as fresh, but it’s a lot more convenient if you have to cook after work.
This recipe is really flexible so I’ll just tell you what I do, but the ratios are all preference:
1 large onion, finely chopped
Equivalent amount of carrot, quarter slices
3 cups cooked pinto beans or chickpeas
1-2 cloves garlic, chopped or crushed
3 tablespoons tomato or red pepper paste (I use half of each but red pepper paste can be hard to find in US grocery stores)
Juice of 1 lemon or white vinegar
1.5 tablespoon sugar
Extra virgin olive oil
Salt and pepper
Optionally, bay leaves, paprika, and parsley
Step 1: frying hard veggies. Heat up a medium or large pot (stainless is best but any material will do) and add enough olive oil to fully cover the bottom and a bit more. It might be more oil than you think you’ll need. Fry your onions until soft.
Side note about onions: you can cook them quickly in 5-10 minutes at medium-high heat. They are ready when soft and translucent. But if you have the time and want a complex flavor in your dish, you can cook them for up to 20-30 minutes at low heat. Always salt them to help draw out the water.
Either way, add the carrots when the onions are almost done (2-3 minutes left).
Step 2: make the sauce. Add your garlic and let it cook a bit until fragrant. Add black pepper and optionally a couple of bay leaves and paprika. Stir for 30 seconds to let the spices bloom and then add your tomato/pepper paste and stir continuously until a sauce forms. About 1-2 minutes. The oil should be reddish.
Step 3: add the beans. Just stir them in and make sure they are covered in the sauce.
Step 4: water. Add 3 cups water (less if you’re in a hurry) and bring to a boil, then reduce to a simmer.
Step 5: anything that should be added to the water. Add the sugar and lemon/vinegar. This is really to taste, so you can add more when it’s almost done if it needs it. It should be just a little sweet and tangy. You can also add leafy greens like kale or spinach, but I don’t add them if I plan on eating it cold later.
Let it simmer until it’s a very beany stew (not a soup), but at the very least 10 minutes. It should be a little watery. Check the flavor and add salt, pepper, sugar, lemon/vinegar, or olive oil as needed. Parsley makes a great garnish.
This can be eaten hot or cold, with or without rice. Will keep about a week in the fridge.
I’ll reply below with a lentil soup recipe that’s more or less the same thing.
For lentil soup you need:
As much chopped leeks as you can handle. Should cover the bottom of the pot at least. Leeks are huge, cheap, delicious, and freeze really well chopped, so I always keep them stocked. You can use onions instead, but I think leeks are much better for soup.
2-3 medium carrots, quarter slices
2-3 celery, sliced
2-3 cloves garlic
2 cups dry/raw green or brown lentils or split green peas
2 tablespoons tomato paste
1/2 cup pearled barley or orzo pasta (or other pasta/grain, or just use more lentils)
Half bunch kale leaves in bite size pieces
Extra virgin olive oil
Juice of 1/2 lemon or white vinegar
Salt, pepper, paprika
Optionally, bay leaves and turmeric
Step 1: heat a pot with oil and cook your leeks, carrots, and celery until soft. Leeks cook a bit longer.
Step 2: add the spices and let them bloom. Add tomato paste and stir until sauce forms.
Step 3: stir in lentils/peas and barley/orzo.
Step 4: add 7 cups water (adjust to preference) and bring to a boil, then let simmer. Cook for 30-45 minutes (or 15-20 in pressure cooker) depending on the lentils/peas you picked. Lentils are done when they are just about bursting.
Step 5: add lemon and kale
Obviously, a lot of this is to taste. If you don’t have good fresh veggies, the broth can be a little flavorless. You can add a bit more lemon and salt, or bullion if it’s really bland. If you know the veggies aren’t great, just use more of them in the first step. You can also use less water.
You can broil the kale with a bit of olive oil and salt for 3-4 minutes until it’s crispy before adding to the soup. This will give it a less fibrous, more crunchy character.
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I live in the US, so depending on where you live these may or may not be available to you.
Cheese for me depends on the application:
On a pizza, I like Miyokos liquid mozzarella. I’ll often get a chain pizza with no cheese, add a little on top and bake for a bit.
Melted in a quesadilla, etc., I’ll usually go for daiya.
Cold on something like a burrito bowl, I like Violife or Vevan. Violife also makes a great feta.
For parmesan and blue cheese dressing, I’ll usually go with Follow Your Heart.
For cheese sauces and mac and cheese, I like to make cashew cheese sauce.
My favorite non dairy for drinking and baking is oat or soy, I just like to make sure it’s not sweetened.
I started making my own yogurt in an instant pot with cheap Asian grocery store coconut milk and vegan cultures, and it’s fantastic.
Hope this helps!
Over here all vegan cheese is violife or similar. It is not bad but lacks the cheesiness and the flavor is frankly a little weird - I suspect the coconut oil to be behind it but can’t verify as all I have available is cockonut oil based :(
Well milk is easy. Just get soy milk or almond milk as a drop-in replacement. There’s even weird ones like cashew milk. Depending on where you are at though that might be too expensive compared to dairy milk.
Where I live, soy milk is less than half the price of cow boob milk. Perks of living in East Asia, I guess.
I bought a 936 mL (1/4 gallons) carton of soy milk today, and it was only about US$1.1 (NT$35). Very affordable.
Why does Taiwan sell soy milk in gallons?
They don’t sell milk or soy milk in gallons. The soy milk I got was 936 mL. 936 mL is 0.2472 gallons, which just so happens to be close to a quarter gallon. A quarter gallon is closer to 946 mL.
When I wrote the previous comment, I actually thought that 936 mL was exactly 1/4 gallons, and it kind of surprised me. The tool I used to convert units rounded the result to 2 decimal places.
That’s even stranger! Do you have any idea why? Is there maybe a pre-metric system measurement that’s closer?
Or maybe soy milk is just 6.4% less dense than water and it’s a kilogram
Oat milk is really good too and is usually cheaper than almond milk, at least where I live.
I normally prefer soy for flavor, with oat as a close second.
For nutritional value, I think soy is the top, followed by pea, and oat way behind.
For environmental impact/needs, I think soy and oat are also among the best.
Soy milk is a miracle food and we should embrace it.
I’m working my way towards it! Did a one month trial run, now I am back to my previous diet but increasing my vegan meals and decreasing my meals with animal products.
I would welcome tips, though!
A fair amount of vegans might say that their experiences made them change overnight. I was not one of those people, as addiction is significant in me. When I was transitioning, I would go all in and keep abstaining from animal products as long as I could. Then I would mess up, and fall back into bad habits for a while. But the key thing that made the difference is that I never gave up. I’d track how many days I went without animal products and count that as my high score. Then when I tried again I would gamify it by being determined to get an even higher score.
As time went on I became more skilled at cooking plant-based, which helped keep me going since the food I was eating was beginning to taste better. Likewise my palette was growing more accustomed to plant-based foods. Eventually I messed up one last time by eating some pepperoni, but the experience was different. Because I had gotten so used to eating more wholesome meals, the pepperoni was such an intense salt bomb that I found it inedible (and that’s coming from a salt-fiend).
But the other thing that changed was in my mind. Consciously I was already well aware that vegan diets are entirely adequate nutritionally. But a lifetime of unconscious carnist societal conditioning gave me this constant feeling as if I could not survive on plants alone. That was one of the things that always got in the way - this strange feeling like I was missing something and had to eat the stuff that was missing or I would die.
But when I bit into that pepperoni I suddenly had this calm recognition: “I don’t need this. In fact this isn’t food.”
And things have only gotten easier over time. Hopefully this helps?
It does! The bits on reframing how you view food resonates. Burgers are still delicious to me, but I now feel more guilt and reach for plant-based equivalents more frequently. I no longer feel the necessity of meat, if that makes sense, so it is getting easier over time.
Burgers are something I missed a lot too! Fortunately plant-based options are becoming more common in fast food places and grocery stores. It usually does come at an upcharge though, so I don’t get them too much. Other people have mixed opinions on meat substitutes, but they have been great for me.
Have any recipe sites or suggestions?
There is a universal type of “recipe” that covers a ton of basic dishes around the world:
- Fry hard veggies in oil until soft - can be onions, leeks, carrots, celery, potatoes etc.
- Add spices, soft veggies, and/or pastes and stir to form a sauce - tomatoes, peppers, garlic, ginger, etc.
- Stir in your beans/chickpeas/lentils/peas. Most beans should be cooked, lentils and peas usually can be dry/raw.
- Add water, bring to a boil, and simmer. Amount and time depends on if you want a soup, stew, or just some sauce.
- Add leafy greens and anything that should be dissolved - spinach, kale, lemon, vinegar, sugar, cilantro etc.
This can make lentil soup, Mediterranean or South American style bean dishes, chana masala, coconut curry, and lots of other stuff. Most can be made with a single pot.
Helpful. Thanks a lot.
For more wholesome foods I like Dr Greger’s recipe books.
https://nutritionfacts.org/books/
I’ve had a few dishes from them as well, and they are really tasty.
There’s plenty of others too, particularly on YouTube. Sauce Stache, Cheap Lazy Vegan, the Whole Food Plant Based Cooking Show, etc.
Thanks 🙏🏻
Hope it goes well for you. 😁
Not who you replied to originally, but since you said you welcome tips:
Learn to cook tofu. There’s different levels of firmness, and an infinite number of ways to prepare and cook it. Try them all. Not everyone’s texture preference is the same. So the way I cook it and the way you cook it can vary drastically.
I hated tofu for ages until I found a way to cook it that yielded the outcome I liked.
Once you figure out the best way to achieve the texture you’re after, you can start worrying about seasoning it. Then you’re golden.
Same. I use the Forks over Knives app to find new recipes. But, with picky eating kids, it’s difficult to maintain a diet. Lots of black bean burgers. 🍔
Yep. I’m a vegetarian for environmental reasons. There’s a huge amount of will behind ending humanity’s reliance on fossil fuels, but very few care about ending our reliance on meat, the most inefficient source of food.
What if eat meat and just don’t have kids? Sounds like I get to be selfish and think about the environment at the same time
Noooo you have to breed for the economy!!!
No, we will not make kids affordable.
Get back to work.
I haven’t gone full vegetarian or vegan. I should for the health of our world though. I have however cut my meat consumption down to about 1# a week, usually chicken. For whatever that’s worth.
I didn’t realize I was straight up addicted to meat in my diet till I tried cutting it out. I think that’s why people get angry with vegans, cause then they gotta look inward, and then that’s gonna be this whole other thing. Oofta
I wonder how bad eggs are for the environment though?
To be fair there was a large amount of time (2010s at least) where vegans weren’t even trying to be appealling. It was either. Stereotypical vegan dishes but even more limited or extremely bad vegetarian meat. Vegetarian meat has improved a lot and more importantly vegan food is represented as less one note.
Don’t think I’m strong enough to give up dairy but respect to those who can do so without being elitist
I didn’t care for the “beyond meat” so much. I don’t mind the old school bocca burgers. Throw it on a bun and dress tf outta that burger you’ll be alright. I’ve been big into beans. Making hummus. Bean salads. Enchiladas. They really are the magical fruit. Cheese is tough I hear ya.
And they’re not all elitists. Some are just really good environmentalists who maybe aren’t so good at communicating and have maybe been burned in the past. But ya some just like the smell of their own farts.
I agree with you to an extent, but, like, what about my local farm that pasture raised pigs and cows and, yes, eventually slaughters them, how do they compare to what I think everyone agrees are terrible, the meat processing plants of the Midwest?
At least for the public at large such methods aren’t practical (not enough space to raise enough meat) and not able to produce meat at a cost the general public could afford.
It’s also still horrible to butcher the animals, I don’t consider any such killing to be humane. They are also killed at a rather young age, barely even adult just max size. You also have the forced pregnancy of the animals and odds are the pigs are still crated after giving birth, the cow calves separated from their mothers, etc.
Nothing is black and white, of course, but slaughtering animals for consumption is animal exploitation and worse for the environment. The impact is much smaller, but still fundamentsl.
Ultimately, it comes down to how we see animals, life, and the environment.
You can show a lot of differences, but the end result is always the same: Sentient beings dead way before their natural expiration.
So all the carnivorous predators are also evil?
I’m not even trying to be a jerk about it, but I’ve never been given a single good answer on this.
Carnivores have just as much right to live as their prey, as unfortunate as the cost of life is.
We, as humans, are in a rather unique position, being omnivores with many of us in the developed world having easy access to food. And those of us can make a choice to not cause the death of other sentient beings in order to have food.
Vegans can be annoying, but at the end of the day they’re right about a lot of things. It’s just that the ethics of consuming meat and animal products can be a delicate conversation, and requires a pretty big change in how one views not only themselves but life as a whole. A lot of online vegans like to approach it the with tact of a sledgehammer.
Trust me, irl vegans are usually way more chill in my experience.
Online vegan here. Just wanted to add that after a couple of years of the same jokes and arguments and demeaning comments that were forced upon you because you had to explain why you don’t want to eat what everyone else around you eats, you kinda lose your tact a bit.
Never went to somebody with a burger in hand and called him a murderer. Been called an emasculated pussy and wittle little rabbit for eating a salad so many times. Same people then complain about annoying vegans. It’s a bit infuriating.
I can understand that. Constantly needing to justify your existence or preferences is exhausting, especially when there’s a stereotype that people are using to project.
I went vegetarian for a bit. I was never vocal about it. I just skipped ordering meat from the menu and asked for veggie options from the waiter. I was surprised the amount of people that gave me shit for it. It was like, “you know animals eat other animals right?” I used to respond with: “yes, but I want to do it for ecological reasons because factory farming is destroying our environment”. I remember getting short with people after a short period of time and started saying: “I graduated from university, what do you think?”
Most of my vegan friends are so nice. Their partners eat meat and they let them live.
Very rarely will you get a “vegan gainz” type person that laughs at people that die or have cancer because they’ve eaten meat. Those type of people are completely repulsive but they’re rarely the people I’ve encountered that are vegans.
Choosing what you eat is your own thing and right to do. But when that decision becomes what defines people they become very annoying. We live in a world of abundance which we created by exploiting people, animals and nature as a whole. So when someone comes without asking and calls you a murderer and animal abused for something they themselves did until recently and still rely on modern medicine and whole set of other animal products it’s annoying, hypocritical and most importantly dishonest.
It’s really not though, inability to do something perfectly does not invalidate the efforts people make.
Nor have I implied it does. But calling people names just because you do something less than others is dishonest and quite frankly disgusting.
Except we’re talking about a situation where enough people doing one of these things has the possibility of actually ending atrocities like factory farms, as well as possibly vivisection and other animal abuses in science. You’re acting as if vegans only think about diet, when in fact I’ve expressed that everything you’ve brought up is something that vegans do make efforts to improve.
In fact you’ve never moved away from factory farms and have been completely ignoring any facts and just quoting random stuff that suits your narrative. You are not making an argument for your position, you just yelling “lalalalal I can’t hear you #GoWegan”.
No, pretty sure you’re the one whose been making wild assertions with no supporting evidence.
it’s tiring to have to use tact around people in order to placate their sensibilities.
That’s what being a part of society entails.
Yeah, well it’s still unfun!
Yet people don’t do that to vegans. Vegans are often ridiculed for being vegan.
the reality is that they will hang on to one thing they dislike and focus on that. because the alternative is the realise that they could be a better person. so easier to blame the horrible vegan.
From my experience, switching diets doesn’t require turning your world view upside down. Maybe if your reason for going vegan is some life-altering epiphany? But I think most people already understand at this point, they just don’t want to change. I’m not speaking here with judgment.
I’m vegan at home, though I’ll sometimes make some exceptions for dairy when I’m out. Explaining that to anyone who wants to share a meal with me ranges anywhere from a brief heads up to a full on ethics debate initiated by the other person. It’s weirdly common how often non-vegans feel challenged just by the existence of a vegan in their presence. Like I’m not trying to have a conversation about it. This is a very practical thing for me and that’s mostly how I see this “lifestyle choice.” It made sense for me to stop eating meat, so I did. No internal struggles or questions about my place in the world. Just logistics about how to navigate our meat-centric food culture. So yeah, I think the biggest challenge isn’t overcoming some personal hurdles, but simply pushback from people and other external factors that make it harder to change.
It’s just that the ethics of consuming meat and animal products can be a delicate conversation, and requires a pretty big change in how one views not only themselves but life as a whole
I was raised vegetarian by a vegan. I’m now a hunter and eat meat almost daily.
I find it always irritating how people constantly say “vegans are annoying”. Being Vegan would be waaaay easier if meat eaters wouldn’t be so damn annoying about their meat consumption. Just say the word “vegan” and some will lose their shit.
I’ve never met a vegan in real life who is annoying (about veganism. Maybe about other things…) Most of them it even takes a while to find out they’re vegan. Several bosses I only found out because a team lunch. Several others I only found out because I befriended them at work and after months of talking to them it finally came up one way or another. Never even be criticized by them, and likewise, I’ve never criticized them (in general I have very few issues with veganism. Maybe I disagree with them on honey bees, and not even sure that’s all vegans. Oh, and perhaps the belief that one cannot love any animal if they eat meat, but its not a topic i wish to agrue so I dont bother engaging anyway.)
Online you may have someone being more abolitionist or mutant about veganism, but even them it’s hardly an issue unless you go into vegan spaces or are commenting about certain things like that dolphin shooting, and even then it’s not really mostly on the level of whataboutism and being really extreme and preachy.
I’ve seen a lot more hate coming from non vegans, both unprompted (like this post) and in reaction to casual posts about a recipe or something on social media.
How nice for you. I lived in Montreal. the amount of vegans that won’t yell at you with a bunch of assumptions about your lifestyle and you haven’t even ordered any food yet is minimal.
On the other hand I’ve ran into far too many ‘red meat eaters with trucks’ in English speaking culture who will never hesitate to impromptu continue a dont-tread-on-me argument with randos as if we are aware what they are going the fuck on about which just makes them seem some of the most irrational, fragile, whiney, pissants I’ve ever met in my life.
Self absorbed fuckheads will come from anywhere. It’s hard to pick who to hate just based on argument. I don’t even care for their argument. I just hate them as a person.
Meat eaters: Vegans are annoying
Also meat eaters: lOoK at the bAbY wItTlE VeGaN bAbY pAnSy LoSeR WhO CaReS aBoUt aNiMaL wElFaRe bOoHoO
Vegans were annoying…
20 years ago, when veganism was getting traction in modern culture and it was all they could do to spread the idea that we might be able to not consume meat.
Everyone’s annoying and it’s fine to be annoying.
If you’re putting forward arguments for anything, it is more convincing and pleasant to be not annoying.
If you are right and annoying, you are still annoying.
I have said obvious things here, most people still need to hear them anyway.
Some people will never change unless you make it more uncomfortable to be stuck in their ways than it is to change
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20% mad about this already, that’s pretty good numbers honestly
People who “are something”, in general are annoying as fuck. As soon as you make something your identity you’ve probably fucked up.
That said I’ve tried to reduce meat consumption as much as possible, for the environment and the animals.
I agree. Militant meat eaters are just as annoying as cliché vegans but there seem to be more of the former.
Reducing meat consumption is probably the best way to go for most people (I’ve reduced mine because of my vegetarian wife and don’t feel like I miss anything) but eating strictly vegan doesn’t seem right to me. Anything that requires supplementation in the long run cannot be the final answer.
Anything that requires supplementation in the long run cannot be the final answer.
Not trying to start an argument with you, you do you, but are you aware that most factory farmed animals are supplemented with B12? Meat and dairy consumers are taking supplements, just indirectly.
Also, anybody living in cloudy areas (North Europe, North US, Canada, etc) should be taking vitamin D supplements anyway, meat eater or vegan.
No, you’re right, mass-produced meat comes from livestock with all kinds of deficiencies itself.
As I said I reduced my meat consumption - to maybe 1-2 times per week. And I try to avoid cheap mass-produced meat and aim for quality instead.
Not sure what’s worse though: cheap meat or ultra-processed vegan meat alternatives (often severely lacking protein too) filling the shelves nowadays.
Not sure what’s worse though: cheap meat or ultra-processed vegan meat alternatives
There was a big news story in the UK last year about “the end of veganism”, which was pretty funny. Basically they were watching the cheap vegan processed shit drop heavily in sales. As people get more comfortable with the diet, they tend to get more whole foods and cook tofu/seitan/peas/etc for their protein, which led to a drop in sales of trash.
Ok mooOOOOoOom. Geez.
Militant meat eaters are just as annoying as cliché vegans but there seem to be more of the former.
I eat meat from time to time, so definitely not even vegetarian, but I’ve absolutely run into more offended meat eaters than vegans IRL, but meat at dinner is a big part of my home country’s culture.
I remember my sisters’ boyfriend fuming, thinking we were trolling him by not having meat at a family dinner. The meat eating mind cannot comprehend.
Literally the only strictly necessary supplement for vegans is b12, and if you understand the science of b12, then you know that you either should be supplementing it anyway, or you’re just rolling the dice.
By contrast there are entire whole-food plant-based communities who routinely report the near-miraculous benefits they gain after adopting the diet, such as cholesterol levels that aren’t deadly.
there are entire whole-food plant-based communities who routinely report the near-miraculous benefits they gain after adopting the diet, such as cholesterol levels that aren’t deadly.
That is a far more complex topic than just meat consumption though. People don’t just go vegan but completely change their diet and actually look at what they consume.
I’ve never had high cholesterol even back when I ate meat daily. Always ate lots of salads and veggies though and didn’t snack sugary shit all day.
The thing I want to be clear about here is that a vegan diet is nutritionally adequate for all our needs, and at every stage of life.
Meat eaters don’t come in your face and call you weed whacker or tree huger whenever there’s food being mentioned.
LMAO yes they fucking do!
They absolutely do. Endless repetitions of the same tired jokes, unprompted self justifications, odd assumptions. Happens all the time. They take offense at the sheer mention you are a vegetarian or vegan, you dont even have to try to convert them. Just be there, rejecting meat on your plate during dinner.
I try to be very tolerant of the unprompted self-justifications and maybe just ask a couple questions about it. At some level they feel a change is warranted, and humans change their minds messily over years, not instantly during arguments.
Yeah, I mean they are not fooling anyone, if they bring the topic up on their own trying to tell me why they eat meat it is quite obvious they have a guilty conscience and are trying to justify it to themselves more than me.
Your approach is a lot more conciliatory though, I am usually so annoyed that I just question why they are so defensive they are telling me those things unprompted.
If you are not preaching and you get those reactions, like I said elsewhere those people are then assholes. It goes both directions of course. You have the right to make your own choices, but telling others what they should do while acting smug then it’s a different matter.
Yeah I am the only vegan I know and I don’t get shit about it from anyone. In fact, my friends and family are very supportive. If people are going after someone for being vegetarian/vegan, they are exceptionally rude and by no means represent meat-eaters in general.
I am sympathetic to the commentors who are being given a hard time for their diet but that is not a universal experience and pretending otherwise is not going to help anyone.
They do in my experience. I’ve never once criticized someone else for eating meat, but I get made fun of a lot for looking for vegetarian/vegan options.
If you just order food without going all “am actually vegan” just to let everyone know and people still make fun of you… then those people are assholes. No one should be judged on their own choices.
Unfortunately, it’s super common. When it comes to my family, they stopped rubbing my face in it once I stood up for myself, which is nice. I had to publicly call out my brother for behaving towards me the way he imagines vegans do before he fully stopped. I have friends who I enjoy the company of, I play board games and tabletop RPGs with them. If I’m round at their place and they’re cooking, sometimes they go into a tirade about how being a vegan is terrible and I have to politely ask them to stop because I’m there to enjoy their company, not defend my eating practices.
It’s thankfully gotten less common, but I honestly think that the whole “angry vegan” stereotype caused them to get on the offensive immediately, expecting a big verbal showdown. I think it’s also this perception of “you think you’re better than me, huh?”.
Now that people know what to expect, sometimes they have questions about why not dairy, or why not eggs. I’m happy to answer those questions, but I’ve never gone into the topic of my own accord.
They are just assholes. It’s not that difficult to make vegan food, they just don’t want to go out of their way to make some for you. I have bunch of vegan and vegetarian friends. Vegans are definitely harder to make food for, but if we are making some food, they better help out if with nothing else with advice or recipes. But I’ve never found it difficult to prepare extra meal or two. It’s just them being lazy.
they just don’t want to go out of their way to make some for you
But that’s the thing, they do. They just also supplement that with a healthy dose of their opinion. These people aren’t assholes (specifically my friends, there are of course assholes in every group), they just naturally get very defensive because I’m a walking contradiction to a few of their deeply held beliefs.
Are you saying people should hide the fact that they’re vegan?
My MIL went full plant based (vegan but also only raw or minimally processed foods, doesn’t even eat tofu or olive oil if she can avoid it) after watching some documentary on Netflix and it is her entire personality now, including trying to force it on my wife I who already eat vegetarian 95% of the time (everything at home is vegetarian, occasionally eat meat out if none of the vegetarian options sound good) primarily for environmental and health reasons. Every time we visit her she makes some snide and not even veiled remarks about us still occasionally eating meat and still eating dairy, her favorite is referring to any sort of cheese as “congealed cow puss”.
She also 100% believes it can cure diabetes, Alzheimers, dementia, and cancer in a matter of months and that meat and dairy cause autism.
Most likely she suppresses envy, one way or another.
She wants that “congealed cow puss” herself.
Exactly. I don’t label myself as a vegan. But when I go somewhere where they try to feed me meat/eggs, I tell them that I don’t eat meat/eggs.
It’s defi becoming more common to avoid assuming everyone is cool with whatever food.
Eh. I lived in a place that has a lot of vegans and know a lot of them. In reality I think only a small percentage of vegans do this. But the ones who do are the most vocal, and the most likely to have negative interactions with non-vegans.
People who “are something”, in general are annoying as fuck.
So do you also find people that are allergic annoying? We all are something.
That’ll just make them throw a tantrum and stop trying to quit.
“I’m going to be a cunt to people who are making an effort”
You’re giving us a bad name. 80% of people eating 50% less meat is a lot better and easier to achieve than 20% of people eating eating no meat.
I’m in the same boat with a lot of commenters here, of trying to reduce my consumption for ethical reasons. Throughout my life I’ve tried being vegan and I’ve tried being vegetarian and always failed and now am just minimizing and it’s working very well for me.
Nonetheless, that picture gave me a chuckle. Life’s a ride, might as well have as good a time as possible and that usually coincides with being uptight as little as possible.
I’ve posted more in depth responses to ‘reducitarianism’ elsewhere. In one comment I made an analogy to quitting smoking, and how ‘reducing’ my cigarette count only led to a rebound where I smoked even more than before.
It’s well known in the scientific literature that people are so inaccurate at self-reporting what, and how much of what, they eat, that questionnaire-based studies are specifically designed to compensate for these inaccuracies. So anecdotal claims of people reducing their animal consumption mean very little, particularly when data seems to indicate the opposite.
And like Ed Winter’s post gets into, you need to put the concept of reduction within the concept of justice. Fewer animals being bred and slaughtered sounds nice, but what about for the animals still being abused and murdered? Do you find it acceptable when corporations promise only to reduce carbon emissions by about 10% by 2035? Or how would you feel if police unions claimed they would disproportionately arrest black people 20% less than they used to?
Sorry but ‘reduction’ is nothing but a self-soothe to make people feel like they’re doing something good, when in reality they are just continuing their injustice while assuaging their own guilt. Just another form of cognitive dissonance.
Haha this is funny
If your goal is preserving the life of cows, everyone becoming vegan will not help; most farm animals can’t survive without human intervention.
Most farm animals have been selectively bred for traits that fit human needs, at the expense of the animal’s own quality of life. For example, chickens being bred to produce so many eggs that they become calcium deficient and their bones break under the weight of their own bodies. Sanctuaries provide safe spaces for these animals to live out the rest of their lives in the most comfort possible, while going vegan is important for a future where we’re no longer breeding these poor beings into an inherently hellish existence.
Yes, much better to have wild animals gutting each other and devouring live prey than to have any farm animals at all. Greatest plan.
Wild animal suffering is a hot debate in the vegan communities these days. There is no cut and dry answer for that. However, whatever we do or don’t do to alleviate or eliminate wild animal suffering says nothing about whether we also create and maintain our own system of animal suffering. We can end the human exploitation of animals, and doing so can teach us a lot about ending our exploitation of each other as well.
I’m not really concerned with whether animals are being exploited by humans anymore than I am the same of plants or fungi. I do think animals shouldn’t suffer because I consider pain to be of negative utility even when experienced by non-persons. With that said, I don’t think the goal of reducing or eliminating animal suffering is better-served by the total elimination of livestock than by ensuring humane farming practice. On the off-chance it wasn’t obvious, I don’t think the utility calculation is clear-cut because of the aforementioned problem of wild animals suffering.
Would you rather live a normal life and at some point be mauled to death, or live your entire life in a prison and at some point be killed more painlessly?
Yes, animals suffer and die in the wild. They also suffer and die in captivity, just in different measures, but I would argue they suffer more as farm animals.
I consider pain to be of negative utility
maybe try getting a professional to look into that psychopathy of yours
People eating less cows would drastically reduce the cow population. I’m sure they would be culled, with entire plants electing to kill the cows rather than sustain them unprofitably.
There would be other animals there instead
Oh wow, do these goalposts have legs?
Who set the goalposts of cows only? If we’re playing logical fallacy bingo, then that’s a straw man.
Okay, I’ll be serious for a moment because logical consistency is important to me.
I am responding to the image above. The image above is making the suggestion that higher rates of veganism means that cows will get to live. I am not arguing here in any capacity that we should only care about cows, I am making the statement that the premise suggested in the image, that there are cows that would be alive if there were more vegans is flawed at best.
If the image showed a fox, you’d be saying they think you eat foxes. It’s not a good faith interpretation of the argument being presented - you might as well infer that they’re only talking about men in suits, too.
This is very true. Look at pigeons, for example. Used to value pigeons as a tool for communication and they even saved lives, but when technology advanced with things like the telegram, we abandoned pigeons. Cows have been domesticated for tens of thousands of years, meaning they are dependent on us for survival, and even if we don’t use then for food, we will still have to take care of them as cows have many things wrong with they’re biology such as the fact that they will die if not milked, and no, the calf can’t keep up with that as the modern cow produces far more milk than they did in the wild so long ago. In essence, cows would either become white elephants or go extinct if we didn’t care for them.
“They have to suffer or else they would be extinct” is a very easy argument to make about other beings when you’re not the one doing the suffering. Personally, I would rather not exist than have a few short years of abysmal suffering and no chance to have a meaningful life.
I never said they would have to suffer, I’m saying without a purpose that society finds useful, the majority of society will stop caring about them.
At a high level, I have no control over your actions, you have no control over mine. We can argue until we’re blue in the face, but when someone walks away after that argument, they’re free to do as they please.
Physically, you don’t need to eat meat. I’d recommend a good dietician if you want to go vegetarian or vegan, at least until you figure enough out that you can maintain the intake of all your required vitamins and nutrients as you transition. There are more than a few of them that are typically provided by meat products for most people’s eating habits, you’ll want advice on how to suppliment that without relying on pills. Suppliment pills can be helpful, but you probably don’t want to have to take them all the time.
Eating meat can certainly be healthy too, speaking mainly for ones nutritional needs. The nutrients in meat are, in some cases, fairly rare in plants, so it can vastly simplify the job of meeting your nutritional needs.
For vegans, on a social and societal level, I agree with the concepts surrounding factory farming and the unethical treatment of the animals that become meat. No argument from me. However, thinking that any meat consumption is tantamount to murder, is not a view I share. Animals, and their meat, are eaten by other animals (including humans - separate from farming… I’m talking about actual hunting here). In nature, there’s no hesitation about this, no remorse, and no known sorrow from the animals who “lost someone” to being food. Sadness over the passing of an individual is almost (but not entirely) a human phenomenon. Same with morals and ethics… To name a few. Ethically, I don’t personally have a problem with animals dying for food. I do however have a problem with the abuse and maltreatment of animals that will become food. While alive, animals should be given some measure of dignity and respect. They should not be forced into living their lives in small cages and jammed together with hundreds of their kin in a confined space the way factory farming often does.
Eating meat does not and should not imply that a person is complicit nor agrees with the concept of factory farms or anything they do. Some people do not have the time, effort, money or focus to dedicate to finding alternatives. You don’t know their life and you should not judge based on their eating habits alone. It’s presumptive and arrogant to think that people have the bandwidth to even grok the concept of changing their entire lifestyle because of factory farms. In the same manner, vegans and vegetarians should not be negatively judged for their decisions either.
The only points of contention I have in the whole debate is that eating meat, in and of itself, whether you bought it off a shelf or obtained it through hunting, does not make one a murderer; and, while it’s fine to share ideas, demanding that others change their ways because you have an opinion, is unacceptable. If someone is curious and willing to listen, sure, chat all you want. However, telling them that their choices are wrong and that they must do something differently, isn’t a practice I can support.
At the end of the day, as most people learned from the lion king, there’s a circle of life. Things will die so other things can live. Plants will absorb the minerals and nutrients from the rotting corpses of so-called “higher” life forms, and those “higher” life forms will eat the plants to live. Those plant eaters will be eaten by other animals, who will eventually die and become fertilizer for the plants. The cycle continues. Eating animals is something that animals do all the time, and it’s not condemned. News flash, humans are also animals. We have the ability to eat and gain strength from meat. You have the free choice to either partake in that activity or not, but make no mistake, that’s your personal choice.
IMO, we should all eat more vegetables. Meats have become so prevalent that there’s basically meat included in every meal of the day. That’s a bit much. Eat a salad. Everyone should reduce their meat intake, at the very least. If you want to go all the way to being vegetarian or vegan, go for it. It’s your choice, your life, your body, and you’re free to use it, and/or abuse it, in whatever way you wish.
For me, the ethical problems of factory farms are definitely an issue. Personally, I’d rather see a regulatory solution for the treatment of animals, since it would improve the life of all of those animals (at least for the duration they’re alive), and improve their situation when they are slaughtered, so it is more humane. After they have been slaughtered, my level of care about how they’re treated, pretty much disappears. As long as the resultant product is safe and not harmful, I couldn’t care less. I’m only concerned with their life from birth to death. After that, meh. Regulatory changes would be simple and more effective than trying to change the hearts and minds of everyone in an effort to have the pubic at large, stop eating meat; bluntly, trying to convince an entire society to do anything for it’s own good, is pretty much impossible. I’m not sure what the “annoying vegans” (not all vegans, just the ones who get in people’s faces about it), are trying to prove. They won’t convince everyone, it’s basically impossible. It’s like they’ve taken on this impossible task and it’s not going well, and they’re steaming mad about it… Bro, you did this to yourself. I believe the only way to put an end to the animal abuse in factory farms, is to regulate it. I don’t know what that regulation looks like, I’m not a lawyer, nor do I have any ties to nor interest in becoming a politician/government decision making person. I know change is needed and I have no ability to enact that change, but I would vote for anyone who did.
I don’t consider death, in and if itself to be inhumane. I consider torture to be inhumane. I consider forced imprisonment in a small space to be inhumane. I even consider suffering to death, it be inhumane. Euthanizing something, can absolutely be humane. I don’t believe that factory farms are being humane by my standards.
I don’t think that asking them to be humane to their flock is too much to ask. Our food deserves it. They’re giving their life for your ongoing existence and enjoyment, the least we can and should do, is ensure they’re not spending that life in pain.
Thoughtful comment, I really liked it. Thank you for sharing
I highly recommend you check out a book called “A Bold Return to Giving a Damn”. It’s about a cattle rancher who turned his ranch into a form of regenerate agriculture. One of his main point is that the current meat industry provides cheap meat that is subsidized by the environment. His ranch is called White Oak Pastures. Fascinating book and definitely changed the way I look at meat consumption. I still eat meat but my extended family raises a cow every year so I think its a little but better than the industrial food system currently at work.
This needs to be in a BestOfLemmy post.
you don’t need to eat meat.
you don’t know what anyone else needs.
The dissonance is real
Watch Dominion.
What he said
deleted by creator
Or just don’t watch gore?
I have nothing against vegans, just do my cooking and I’ll eat anything
Do you want me to put on a maid outfit too, huh? Lazy bastard.
Not sure if sarcastic…
I am just looking for an excuse to put on a maid outfit.
Thanks for the laugh, you had me in the first half.
Because, like, yeah? Obviously?
Your question marks makes me think that your not sure either.
And you must refer to me as president
If lab-grown meat becomes even half as good (and cheap) as slaughtered meat then I’d make the switch in a heartbeat. Not to mention, imagine being able to try out all sorts of exotic meats guilt-free, or being able to eat raw meat without risk of food-borne illness and parasites? Gimme some of that cruelty-free giant tortoise meat, lemme see what that gluttonous bitch Charles Darwin was on about.
Be careful OP. There are angry meateaters among us using Lemmy.
among us
⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣠⣤⣤⣤⣤⣤⣶⣦⣤⣄⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⣴⣿⡿⠛⠉⠙⠛⠛⠛⠛⠻⢿⣿⣷⣤⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣼⣿⠋⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⣀⣀⠈⢻⣿⣿⡄⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣸⣿⡏⠀⠀⠀⣠⣶⣾⣿⣿⣿⠿⠿⠿⢿⣿⣿⣿⣄⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣿⣿⠁⠀⠀⢰⣿⣿⣯⠁⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠈⠙⢿⣷⡄⠀ ⠀⠀⣀⣤⣴⣶⣶⣿⡟⠀⠀⠀⢸⣿⣿⣿⣆⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣿⣷⠀ ⠀⢰⣿⡟⠋⠉⣹⣿⡇⠀⠀⠀⠘⣿⣿⣿⣿⣷⣦⣤⣤⣤⣶⣶⣶⣶⣿⣿⣿⠀ ⠀⢸⣿⡇⠀⠀⣿⣿⡇⠀⠀⠀⠀⠹⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⡿⠃⠀ ⠀⣸⣿⡇⠀⠀⣿⣿⡇⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠉⠻⠿⣿⣿⣿⣿⡿⠿⠿⠛⢻⣿⡇⠀⠀ ⠀⣿⣿⠁⠀⠀⣿⣿⡇⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢸⣿⣧⠀⠀ ⠀⣿⣿⠀⠀⠀⣿⣿⡇⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢸⣿⣿⠀⠀ ⠀⣿⣿⠀⠀⠀⣿⣿⡇⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢸⣿⣿⠀⠀ ⠀⢿⣿⡆⠀⠀⣿⣿⡇⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢸⣿⡇⠀⠀ ⠀⠸⣿⣧⡀⠀⣿⣿⡇⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣿⣿⠃⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠛⢿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣇⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣰⣿⣿⣷⣶⣶⣶⣶⠶⠀⢠⣿⣿⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣿⣿⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣿⣿⡇⠀⣽⣿⡏⠁⠀⠀⢸⣿⡇⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣿⣿⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣿⣿⡇⠀⢹⣿⡆⠀⠀⠀⣸⣿⠇⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢿⣿⣦⣄⣀⣠⣴⣿⣿⠁⠀⠈⠻⣿⣿⣿⣿⡿⠏⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠈⠛⠻⠿⠿⠿⠿⠋⠁⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀
Sus
Omg is that a susSy baka? im so scared they’re amogus!!
I would hope that most people who have seen much of anything about industrial ranching would have a hard time not showing a bit of empathy.
Some descriptions of hell aren’t as upsetting as seeing how those animals are kept and handled.
I only ever see meat eaters argue about what the body needs or how our teeth are meant for meat. There is no way to argue that the modern meat industry isn’t horrific, I think some carnists that react strongly to vegans unconsciously know this and react with anger because of guilt and shame.
They’re gonna lash out again.
Yeah I just don’t understand why vegans hate comedy documentaries so much/s
Become vegetarian
And then become vegan.
Step one. Stop taking medicine, as lots of pills use lactose and all the vaccines are tested using horseshoe crab blood and are tested on animals.
https://www.vegansociety.com/go-vegan/definition-veganism
Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—
One step ahead of you.
Edit: You really think this is a gotcha, eh? Given that you’ve posted the same thing at least six times?
practicable
There’s the rub. One mans practicable is another mans impossible. So it just becomes people judging other people’s choices without any real understanding of their circumstances.
It’s literally baked into the quote that that’s not the idea. I really don’t see how you’ve arrived at that conclusion and I suspect you’re just trying to finagle a counterpoint.
No I don’t. Am merely pointing out everyone depends on it to a degree and that doesn’t give people right to call them names. This is why people roll their eyes whenever someone blurts out they are a vegan. Do whatever you want to do, but you are no better than the rest. Perhaps you care more or are trying more to be less dependent on animal products, but you are still dependent.
Yeah? But the key is to become less dependant like you stated, which is what veganism aims to do. It is impossible at this current time to be independnat of them, but each passing year we do become less so.
Which am completely fine with. Am just annoyed when someone comes and calls me a murderer or animal abuser when they themselves depend on the very same thing.
Nobody did that, yet you chose to comment that annoying shit take anyway.
You are as irritating as you claim those vegans are.
Huh. Didn’t know lots of pills have lactose in them. I’d think I would have noticed, seeing as I’m lactose intolerant. But I guess they’re in such small amounts per pill to not notice?
Alright if you want to go that way, there was a legend of a Buddhist monk who let a hungry tiger eat him, if you really want to go all out just lay on the ground and let the earth take you.
As Mike says, no half measures ;)
But in seriousness, going some/most of the way there is better than not at all. And most people transition over time rather over night too anyway. Every small step helps when it comes to the environment, personal health and ethics in my opinion.
Mike has clearly never had some rasmalai.
Unexpectedly good meme
I have stereotypical vegan friends (Somehow squeeze their veganism into conversation every time!) I have slowly tried to adjust my diet for doctor mandated health reasons for the better, never been healthier but I dare not mention it, I don’t want to give them the satisfaction, one of them will try to take credit, I just know it. :P
As a vegan myself I notice the opposite a lot. Veganism becomes the topic of conversation IRL more because of everyone around me asking questions like “don’t you miss bacon” and “how long have you been vegan now?” And “would you ever eat meat again”.
And when it’s not about veganism specifically they often bring up meat when talking about food they had and then instead of contributing to the conversation, since that feels disingenuous to my ethics and I’m not a fan of lying in general, I’ll tell them “sorry I’m vegan”.
Also a lot of the stereotypical vegans that end up bringing up veganism on their own all the time is mostly just due to them likely being activists and quite honestly having to deal with the worst of the worst trying to ruin their day every day. And that shit takes it’s toll, not to mention directly staring a lot of what makes them physically sick and upset right in front of them day in and day out. Constantly being reminded of what to them is genuinely horrific. That can change a person and make them very jaded and cynical in life. And in that case, tact no longer becomes an issue to them because to them it’s a matter of life and death, and they mostly see death and this becomes desperate to make a change, even if it’s a little one.
Sorry if this made me look like a stereotypical one, I’m not trying to preach. Just trying to share what it can be like on the other side.
Also they totally would take credit. We would call it “planting the seed”. Making you conscious of the choice and hope you come to your own decision on how to and when to make it. ;)
-edit
God that’s a wall of text, I’m sorry -.-
A wall of text wouldn’t have paragraphs
Those are windows though, lol
You could always try telling them and then immediately dying as a prank. Unfortunately, it only works once…
Bold strategy
They were right though.
And they still are.
food is a big part of every culture and it is something everyone has to deal with several times a day. That already brings in a lot of opportunities where someone’s diet is relevant to conversation. And, veganism goes beyond diet. I don’t think they necessarily do it on purpose, you probably don’t notice how often you bring up specifically the opposite of veganism.
Can’t live without some delicious red meat, no if ands or buts. I will(and have) hunt it down myself if I have to.
