This it the bottom so far you mean.
Next bottom is whether the infants are conspirators or not.
Even better, infant body armor
How did you get hold of Hamas training materiel?
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OK, that’s absolutely fucked up.
Is that Baby Boomerangutan?
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Its hard to imagine how it could dive down even further but to their credit those mossad lads are clever propagandists. But I don’t know like.
Sadly war sucks ass.
If it was a command post then there must be a path for Israel to attack. It’s not like Hamas gets to use “one weird trick” to exclude their command center from being a valid target.
If Israel thought it was a military target, did every thing else right, but sucked up then it’s a sucky product of urban war.
If Israel knew it was really only a hospital and attacked anyway — then they are morally and strategically fucked. Rightfully so. (Kinda like how other countries have also overreacted to a terrorist attack and gone after the wrong target).
And of course the reality of all this probably doesn’t matters because a large number of people make up their mind first and from then on ignore and other intelligence even when it’s gathered.
as usual with this shit show of a conflict, it seems both sides are awful: hamas used the hospital as a command post which means israel has to be able to attack it, however attacking it with indiscriminate shelling is absolutely unacceptable
both entities are completely unacceptable… debating which one is more so is outrageous, and if anyone “sides” with either one they’re morally corrupt, brainwashed, or too stupid to comprehend anything but binaries
The thingis that often siding with the people in Gaza who are living in hell rightnow is intentionally misunderstood as siding with Hamas.
oh 100%!
and there are so many disingenuous arguments going around like “they voted for hamas! fuck around and find out!”… well, if you think that then you don’t get to complain about american politics (as most people do): https://www.snopes.com/news/2023/11/01/majority-palestinians-gaza-elect-hamas/
they voted for hamas…
The fact that a lot of people ignore that the Palestinians fought a civil war precisely to not have Hamas in power and lost Gaza to a Hamas takeover after the last election (2006) tells you that the zionist propaganda engines are well oiled and working.
Using a hospital as a hostage and bombing a hospital are two acts so beyond the pale that it’s pointless to argue which is worse. Both are incredibly fucked up.
Sadly war sucks ass.
Don’t try to justify the mass murder of innocent, injured and sick civilians, including children and infants. There’s literally nothing that excuses dropping bombs on hospitals. And schools. And trucks full of refugees. And people’s homes. And ambulances.
It is interesting how the same US political ideology that supports this mass murder of children are, generally, also the ones who consider zygotes to be children and criminalize pregnant women for having miscarriages. But I digress.
The point is, it’s all a bullshit power play, don’t let it distract you from your own humanity.
It is well that war is so terrible, otherwise we should grow too fond of it.
These days we have no excuse, either to go to war, or to allow for conditions in which acts of war would be an appropriate (if desperate) response.
War remains a sign that irrational, irresponsible people are still allowed to take positions of power. And so long as we cannot stop that nonsense, it is an indictment of our species, that we may not be able to adequately civilize and govern ourselves with reason, rather are yet another species of ape that is going to run its course before going extinct.
Judging from the comments, we can go lower.
“Truly this is the bottom”
Conservatives everywhere brandishing shovels: “Challenge accepted”
Someone just called this post “pearl clutching” in this very thread. We’re fucked.
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Dang dude, I guess everyone upset over the October 7th Hamas attacks are “pearl clutching” because Israelis died. “It’s just war, bro”
All I know is I have heat, fresh water, plenty of food, and today is my day off. The last people who were indiscriminately killed on these lands was 200 years ago and the biggest looming threat is NAZIs who I am not a target of other than my controversial political speech.
Can I be the most callous now? There are millions of us.
I believe they are referring to the selective outrage that this conflict has generated. Far more innocent civilians have been killed in places like Syria, Tigray, Yemen and Ukraine, but none of them, not even Ukraine, has generated anywhere near the amount of outrage among parts of the left as has the situation in Gaza.
Not even Ukraine? Man I still see people flying Ukraine flags all over my very suburban neighborhood. In a way I certainly don’t for Palestine, or Israel for that matter.
I don’t see how that diminishes anything from the current situation in Palestine. Honestly it kind of feels like a cop out way to pretend not to care. “It’s happening in these places, too, so calm down” seems like a strange way to show support for other oppressed people’s.
Ukraine was all over my circles, real and online. Maybe you hung around a different crowd?
Just wait until they find out about the Iraqi war. 1 million dead civilians. We technically committed genocide based on a lie.
No one from that administration has been held accountable despite us now knowing that they knew it was a lie at the time (WMDs). If there was any justice Dick Cheney would have been hung long ago.
I like your outlook. Besides your general observation of the Lemmy hivemind, let us know what you think about the conflict itself
It’s like everyone’s opinion is “my tribe is always right and deserves all the sympathy, the other tribe is always wrong and deserves all the suffering”. No one cares about solutions or examining why a conflict has persisted for 80 years. Humans are so predictable.
It’s not even “my tribe”.
Hardly anyone posting here is Israeli or Palestinian. It’s just distracting nonsense to divide us. Pick a side plebs. Look, those people have picked the other side. Hate them!
Hey this guy hasn’t picked a side, get them!
To be fair it isn’t the Israeli or Palestinian population is their governments. The populations are just sorta a second thought given both seem to be majority against it.
Fighting a culture war to prevent you fighting a class war.
I wish two groups of people determined to kill each other could take it away from the civilian population, to say nothing of using human shields and attacking irrespective of potential collateral damage and non combatant deaths
More like two groups of people determined to kill civilian populations. Keeping it away from civilians would defeat the whole purpose.
I think it’s older than 80 years. I recall reading about old men spitting at each other over rights to fuck the prettiest goat in Mesopotamia way before Churchill took a shit.
No, we’re finding new ways to commit familicide though!
Humans are manipulable, especially in large numbers. Humans are violent, but not irrational. It takes convincing for that.
People are absolutely irrational, especially in groups
Didn’t K say a person is smart, people are dumb. Something along those lines.
MIB was a great movie
Individually, humans are erratic, not irrational. Seeing action without reason is very rare, the thing is that the reason that lead them is often flawed. Group dynamics are a whole different beast tho, they could be described as irrational.
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The irony in this post is palpable.
Love your humour dude
“It’s like people refuse to acknowledge the wrongdoings of their own tribe.”
FTFY
Enlightened, middle-ground centrist. We found you.
Friendly reminder that a defining characteristic of a fascist is drawing hard in-group out-group lines.
(And another is the fetishization and glorification of violence against the out-group)
Wait, I’m even more confused. Are you saying the OP who posted is creating the demarcations for groups?
The person who I am directly replying to.
But make no mistake, Israel is also fascist af.
Wish there was common nomenclature for referring to posters or parts of a comment to make the context clearer. Friends say I am on the spectrum but the Psychologist said that doesn’t seem to be the case.
Like, OP1 is lame, OP2 supports genocide, etc. to clarify within a thread without having to quote or @ which I find a bit clumsy and generally gets in the way of flow.
Wish there was common nomenclature for referring to posters or parts of a comment to make the context clearer.
For comments, that’s how I do it.
Throw one, too, or three asterisks around each side of the sentence you want to highlight.
No need for special verbage or nomenclature. It’s done visually.
There should be a distinction between the OP of the thread and the OP of the comment imo. It can get confusing.
Yeah I think what I dislike about that is it breaks up the flow of whatever I am writing. There’s a coherence that is lost.
I’m accustomed to reading books or essays where there might be an excerpt, but more likely a paraphrase of what the author considers their opponent’s argument to be. This makes it helpful at times to pinpoint a misunderstanding in the author.
But yeah, having consistent rules on the internet for posting is a losing battle I think. More or less thinking out loud, appreciate the comment.
This sounds like a great idea!
I’ll clarify, I’m just putting out a reminder that being fascist is not an inherent trait, like green eyes or dark skin. Literally anyone can fall into the trap of fascist thinking. The only way to be truly anti-fascist is to recognize the warning signs in your own thoughts and worldview.
So centrism can sometimes be a trap, but don’t demonize the practice of seeing both sides. Taking a hard line with one sides is a step on the path to becoming a fascist.
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So centrism can sometimes be a trap, but don’t demonize the practice of seeing both sides.
Wise words.
It’s how Peace is achieved.
Taking a hard line with one sides is a step on the path to becoming a fascist.
And War, and death.
Pretty non fascist to my understanding. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Karra
Ah yes, the “I have a black friend” defense.
I have Jewish friends, so I trust you won’t call me antisemitic for saying Israel is structurally racist and authoritarian.
I just shown you a highly placed Arab state worker. show me a Jewish in West Bank, mind you?
If you have a Jewish friends then you really aren’t anti semitic are you?
Such a smooth brain comment.
Not to mention a huge amount of Israelis themselves criticise the current government and what it’s done.
“Only a sith deals in absolutes!”
That sounds like an “absolute” statement to me!
Glory to the Absolute!
Would that still count if it’s “In group = civilians” " out group = organizations killing civilians"?
yup agreed?
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My mind is open to considering this. Where is the line I’m drawing, which is the in-group and which is the out-group?
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Demanding an evacuation of a hospital full of patients, under the threat of bombardment, only for those patients to die of complications for not being treated, this is just a more silent mass murder.
It would be cool if Hamas didn’t fire rockets from the vicinity of schools of hospitals though wouldn’t it?
These two points are not antithetical.
There’s definitely no possibility that Israel does stuff like that and then blames it on its enemies to justify its actions. No way.
LMAO, wait, your argument is that Hamas doesn’t use human shields, and it’s all Israeli propaganda?
Hamas has been openly, proudly discussing their use of the Palestinian civilians a human shields for… Basically forever.
This isn’t unique to Hamas, it’s a common trait of all jihadist groups. Innocent victims are rewarded for their faith in heaven, and evil victims are punished in hell. So I’m their warped mind there’s no moral consequence for murdering or endangering civilians. Please let that sink in before you continue to support them.
It would be cool if the counter battery from a highly technical country hit the rockets instead of collapsed the building. Which is entirely possible.
And if it turns out that the accusation Hamas was using the basement as a command post is true, is that the new bottom?
Using the hospital for anything other than helping people is a bottom. They are both trash entities.
And fun fact: bombing/attacking a hospital is not a war crime per the Geneva Conventions Article 52, if it is being used as a military objective.
I mean, that makes a certain degree of sense, because if using protected places as a place to put one’s military operations doesn’t remove that protection, then it would become a common strategy to intentionally use vulnerable civilians as shields in that manner, and since no military is realistically going to just let their opponent attack them without a response when capable of delivering one, such a scenario would just lead to the whole idea of places like hospitals being protected being abandoned.
That’s exactly what Hamas does. No better than Al-Qaida.
Both are trash but one has been killing for decades…
Ehm, both have been killing for decades. Palestine consistently had about 10x the losses Israel had.
thats my point
Both are trash but one has been killing for decades…
Hm, either that is not really your point or you are remarkably bad at putting it into words.
I mean terrorism and putting innocents at risk is bad. But this comes because of almost a century of oppression and death so it is expected at this point. You defend yourself whichever way you can I guess. I am from a colony, so I know shit can get desperate.
You be the judge if I’m bad with words (spoiler: I am anyway) or if I just have a bad take.
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Still not a good reason to kill babies…
I would resign on the spot if I ever got an order like that. I don’t care if Nazis are resurrecting Hitler in the basement of the hospital, I can’t trade babies and children as acceptable collateral.
Because you actually exhibit humanity
To people saying it’s justified because Hamas are hiding there, if Hamas wants to kill as many Israelis as possible they could hide in a Israeli hospital and the IDF, being consistent, would bomb it just the same since it now became a military target. Right?
Yeah, you know they wouldn’t, not the same way at least. Somehow Palestinians are an acceptable collateral while Israeli, specially Jews, would never be. That’s how you know this isn’t about Hamas.
Very good point! I will steal it and pretend I’m as smart as you
Except Hamas is the government in Gaza and can setup pretty much whatever situation it wants to there, while it is hated in Israel outside of Gaza and would be prevented from taking an Israeli hospital and constructing elaborate tunnels under it. That’s kind of like saying “If Russia wants Ukraine so bad, why doesn’t it just take Kyiv?” Because it can’t. There’s a bunch of obstacles stopping it, otherwise it obviously would.
Without being too serious, don’t give the terrorists good ideas 🤣
Can’t tell if you’re just trying to sound ironically dumb or not?
Israel would storm it’s own hospital with troops as would any other country. Bombs were used in Gaza before there was security on the ground. Dropping special forces off in the middle of Hamas held territory would turn into Black Hawk Down 2
I don’t think your comparison holds up as the double standard you think it is. Isreal have been bombing locations that potentially hold their own civilians being held as hostages.
You think Israel would just let them take one of their hospital in the first place ? Why would that happen in the first place ? There would be an immediate military intervention , before they are deeply embedded
In Palestine tho, hamas does what it wants. And nobody is there to stop them. So they already are in the hospitals, and in the streets leading to hospital, and watching the neighborhood where those are.
Who would think that in a war, the people opposing you would be treated differently than your own people? This is the reality of war and not specific to this conflict.
The civilians of Palestine are not the “opposition”
The truth finds its way to the mouth.
The question is do Jewish people expect mercy from the one above? Or do they think the lord is someone they’ll explain themselves to and is supposed to be their friend and just be like yeah sweet? Like imagine how disappointed that a higher power or super intelligence would be 🤣
The bottom so far
Does no one remember the 1 million innocent Iraqis we killed based on a lie?
I would argue that is the most recent rock bottom we have come to since world war II.
We bombed people in their homes relentlessly. They were not going after military targets, it was an indiscriminate slaughter of mostly innocent people. Hundreds of thousands of children.
We have committed genocide purely for profit and power, very recently. Remember that when our government tries to defend Israel’s actions. They are following our playbook.
There have been leaked conversations from Israeli officials stating that the war between them and Hamas helps them maintain power over Israeli citizens. They are creating more terrorists on purpose to leverage control over their people. What else happens when your family gets eradicated in a bombing? You go after those that are responsible, and joining Hamas is the easiest route to exact your revenge on those who killed your family.
That study was pulled for being ridiculous. The Iraq Body Count Project estimates 7300 civilian deaths over a far larger operations area, with far more forces involved, March 21 to May 1.
Nowhere near the nightmare fuel of total familicide 🤣
That’s because apparently someone decided, without discussion, that setting military headquarters in a hospital - where babies are born - is absolutely fine and moral move.
He said, believing the IOF, who has killed Palestinians with absolute impunity, and lying through the teeth about it
Don’t forget the hasbara bots upvoting him!
Huh?
What would convince you? Based on what I can glean from various sources, it seems at least likely that the claim is true. I also don’t see what incentive the Israelis have to lie about it.
While it does seem plausible. You don’t see what incentive the Israelis have to lie about it? Really?
Well think about it for a moment. What I mean is that they already know that they will be accused of lying regardless, so why bother “fabricating” an ambiguous account when they could just as easily lie and claim that they found a giant Hamas command center?
In other words, they have no incentive to lie about the attack having achieved ambiguous results unless they are actually telling the truth. If you are going to lie, and if you know you won’t be believed regardless, why not go whole hog?
Again, they have no incentive to half-ass it unless they’re simply stating the truth.
If they don’t have something believable then the Boycott, Divest, and Sanction movement will cut off their Western support and see them on trial in the Hague.
Getting the lie right or persuading the world they really really did believe this has literal existential consequences for the politicians and generals.
Historians call that the Criterion of Embarrassment.
Sure where is the evidence of all those tunnels? Get outta here IDF shill.
It’s under all the rubble, just like the Intel on where the hostages are. 🙄
OMG Guys a large hospital has maintenance tunnels!
Until they release the drone footage of a command center down there it’s just infrastructure they’re making shit up about.
Killing a building full of women and children to go after a group of people who may or may not be in said building after they killed women and children…
Two unscrupulous groups are willing to murder innocent civilians. Sounds like two groups of terrorists.
Fuck Hammas, fuck the IDF. I’m absolutely fine with them killing each other. I’m not okay with the fact that they’re both using innocent civilians as pawns.
The difference being the IDF has consistently gone to pretty significant lengths to warn civilians and give them time to evacuate. Hamas has not and in fact specifically targets civilians. These groups are not the same.
The difference being the IDF has consistently gone to pretty significant lengths to warn civilians and give them time to evacuate.
True, but then to bombard from the air destroying whole buildings and killing many civilians to get to a few combatants under the building is not an ethical or moral move either. You don’t get a get out of jail free card for notifying up front, you have to follow through.
Telling someone to evacuate is not enough, you have to verify they have evacuated. If they have not, you should be instead sending in ground troops, and yes with a larger cost in lives and political turmoil, but that is the ethical way.
Non-combatants are not supposed to be involved in combat.
Bullshit. There’s evidence of some warnings but with literally thousands of air strikes a week there literally isn’t the resources to warn everyone like they did during the “cease fire”. And you don’t get 10,000 civilians dead in a month by warning them.
Last I saw Hamas wasn’t troubling themselves with giving ANY warnings. I’d say some>none. Where is the moral equivalence you so desperately want?
It doesn’t matter how much you warn them if there’s no military presence. The warnings they do give are nothing but a fig leaf to cover up war crimes
Hamas supporters hate this one trick!
That’s a point of view I am willing to accept
Has there even been any evidence of that?
Yea there’s no consensus that the ‘evidence’ produced is reliable. At first IDF showed the hatch to a water cistern and said it was the hatch to the network of tunnels. This new photo could just be a hole in the ground. The tour through the MRI room and truck loaded with weapons could be easily planted. Independent investigations like Forensic Architecture have found discrepancies and raised questions over the legitimacy of IDFs claims. Al Jazeera has reported that IDF had misreported facts to build a narrative.
US intelligence agrees that Hamas was operating out of the hospital, but there not much else backing up these claims right now.
**edited to remove a bad source
"Cobb-Smith has joined with the most politicized anti-Israel NGOs in pushing false or unsubstantiated accusations of Israeli violations of the laws of war […] In particular, he circulated false claims (“there was no tactical reason; there was no reasonable use of that weapon system”) as well as claims (later discredited) that the IDF used white phosphorous “in an illegal manner.” Similarly, he has been involved with the campaigns of the anti-Israel NGO known as Forensic Architecture.
Oh okey, I understand better what you mean by “not much to back those claims”
I did some quick searches on him and saw he was with amnesty international. This didn’t come up for me. I’ll remove him as a reference. Appreciate the insight to him.
They pulled that from a site called NGO-Monitor. It’s a right wing Israeli outlet that exists specifically to dismiss claims from international NGOs. It’s about as credible as the government itself denying it committed crimes.
Eh, either way, discrediting him doesn’t discredit my argument.
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/ngo-monitor-bias/
Overall, we rate the NGO Monitor Right biased based on support for the right-wing Israeli government. We also rate them Mixed for factual reporting based on the consistent promotion of pro-Israeli propaganda
Except there’s very credible evidence Israel uses WP illegally. There’s literally photos of it available online. Is that the IDF calling him biased or what?
“IDF says…”
Of course. What reason would they have to lie? /s
Maybe we should wait until there’s been a more neutral investigation before deciding it’s one hundred percent true.
What I never understand about major news stories is that so many people take everything they see at face value and then consider it indisputable fact. When there’s an international war going on, no one thinks that just maybe we’re only getting a fraction of reality communicated to us? That it must be the worst game of telephone in terms of accuracy? But then if someone even suggests that maybe there’s more to the story, they’re conspiracy theorists or they get told what “side” they’re on.
We should all be at least somewhat discerning. There’s so many different actors with interests in this war. We have no idea what else could be going on that we will never, ever hear about, nor how much spin is being put on the stuff we do hear about.
Do you really think only you had this thought? Don’t you think this is exactly what I think about your opinions? And telling this in my face literally does nothing because I am just as convinced that you gobble up Al-Jazeera/Hamas propaganda as, supposedly, I am gobbling up Israeli propaganda?
Come down to Earth buddy
You are wildly bad faith all over the comments, wow.
You went too “down to earth” and need to pull your head outta sand or whatever dark hole you have it shoved into.
If you consider logical implications “a bad faith” we have nothing to talk about
If you consider putting words in peoples mouths and strawmanning their positions “a good faith” we have nothing to talk about.
I mean independently verified. The idf has a history of lying and some of the stuff mentioned in that article has already been disproven.
What’s your explanation for the video in the article? AI-generated? Doctor’s fire exit? Aliens?
Wow, a tunnel near a hospital. There’s tunnels under my university too. Should the idf siege it?What I’m asking for is clear evidence that Hamas was using the hospital as a command center. I still haven’t seen any of that.
Oh yup gotcha. i am stopping here, calling my buddies in Hamas for confirmation
Go ahead. Maybe release another phone convo between Hamas militant one and Hamas militant 2?
Perhaps get them to send you their hostage watching schedule / calendar that the IDF was showing off as evidence too. Or the the mysteriously multiplying guns and “one take” “no editing” english video that has edits in it…
Putting aside the lack of evidence of this, and the Israeli government’s history of being caught lying about this kind of thing, how many civilians is it defensible to kill per Hamas militant, and does the calculus change if they’re children?
…or are we taking the super credible IDF line and saying the infants are Hamas militants?
Putting aside existing evidence for it
There isn’t a specific count. Just like there is no count for “how many Russian civilians has to die for each Ukrainian soldier”. Israel didn’t ask this war, Hamas did. Hamas is in charge of Gaza, not Israel.
You understand that the Israeli government funded Hamas over the PLO, don’t you? Netanyahu signed the death warrant on his own citizens to create the pretext for the genocide he’s now accelerating - Netanyahu and the Israeli government did ask for this war.
Okey that is a valid argument! Second one in a dozen of comments or so
Yes i know this mofo funded hamas and hope he ll pay for it. However, the attack on 7 October happened on Israeli territory, not the opposite. That’s still a “defensive operation” in my understanding.
I really don’t like this argument (defensive genocide? Come on.), but it’s one for Palestine in any case - look at the Israeli operation of Palestine as an open air concentration camp, and look at the casualty stats - between a dozen and five hundred Palestinian casualties per Israeli casualty, depending on your datasource and the way you slice it. This would justify the 7 October attack as defensive - which they weren’t.
Again, if you combine all that with the fact what Israel have backed the IDF, and the fact that Israel are a nuclear power with an advanced military, and f35s (compared to a paraglider and small-arms) how do you conclude that this is defensive?
I reject your second argument: the fact that one army is light years ahead of their opponent does not automatically make «offensive» whatever they do, nor does it mean that the advanced army should not fight at all. Good for them to be advanced
Regarding your first point, and the fact that there are so many civil victims for so «few» Israeli victims: agreed there are many. With some gotchas:
- a non zero number of those civilians are only «civilians» because Hamas said so. It is a known fact they count their own fighters as «civilians». I do not deny that there are indeed, true civil victims. Israel has a record of letting people know where they attack in advance, so they do have some good will credit.
- When you have a terrorist nest, next to your house, I think it’s pretty sensible to go in, and reduce their capacity to do harm. Most comments here reject even the fact that Israel had a right in first place to even enter the Gaza. I do believe they have total right to do so.
- a genocide is a deliberate killing of civilians. Only Hamas deliberately targets civilians. IDF obviously could take more care in avoiding unnecessary death, but they don’t kill for fun as much as I know
- It strikes to me that not as much pressure is put on Hamas for taking care of their citizen as it is on Israel. Hamas is ruling there, maybe Gaza’s citizens should somehow be involved in solving their problems?
I am not here to justify every death of every kid in Gaza, but I do say that Israel was provoked, and we are in «find out» phase of «fuck around», and yes, I reject the notion of «genocide»
the fact that one army is light years ahead of their opponent does not automatically make «offensive» whatever they do, nor does it mean that the advanced army should not fight at all. Good for them to be advanced
It speaks to their moral culpability, the irrelevance of Hamas’ genocidal intent, and the indefensible lack of proportionality in their response. I’m a 6’7" grown-ass man. If a 2 year old kicks me in the shin, after I’ve locked them in a cage and poked them aggressively with a stick, me beating their skull to a paste isn’t a defensible response - same applies to Israel.
a non zero number of those civilians are only «civilians» because Hamas said so. It is a known fact they count their own fighters as «civilians». I do not deny that there are indeed, true civil victims.
Similarly, Israel has been caught lying about who is a Hamas militant (they’re also making claims that every Palestinian is Hamas) - I don’t think you’re dumb or bad faith enough to argue this is at a level that changes things, so unless you’re going to argue otherwise, there’s not a point to engage here.
Israel has a record of letting people know where they attack in advance, so they do have some good will credit.
“Sure - I bombed all those schools, but I called on a bomb threat on a few of them first, so aren’t I really the good guy?” No.
When you have a terrorist nest, next to your house, I think it’s pretty sensible to go in, and reduce their capacity to do harm.
Can you define terrorist in a way that implicates Palestine and not Israel? I ask because Israel is killing far more innocent civilians than Hamas in addition to indiscriminately fucking over Palestine by cutting movement, trade, water, power, and rendering it uninhabitable with deadly consequences.
a genocide is a deliberate killing of civilians.
You’re disagreeing with the UN definition
Killing members of the group; Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
Only Hamas deliberately targets civilians.
No. Even if this were true, how many civilians are they killing per militant? 100:1? Knowing the proportion of kids killed is pretty squarely in line with the broader population, what makes you think they’re targeting Hamas? They’ve also killed 100 journalists and 48 aid workers. This is indefensible - please don’t try.
It strikes to me that not as much pressure is put on Hamas for taking care of their citizen as it is on Israel
Israel is responsible for Hamas - they propped them up over the PLO, created the oppressive conditions that would lead to sympathy for their goals - Fatah/the PLO would be in power if Israel didn’t decide to create the pretext for this genocide at the expense of Israeli lives. What would Palestine pushing back against Hamas look like when half the population are children? They’re not responsible for taking away Israel’s flimsy justification for driving them from their homes and slaughtering them.
I am not here to justify every death of every kid in Gaza, but I do say that Israel was provoked, and we are in «find out» phase of «fuck around», and yes, I reject the notion of «genocide»
That toddler kicked me after I tortured them, so I was justified in stomping their skull into a paste - fuck around and find out… What’s proportionality? You’re doing a lot of work to defend a genocide for someone that’s opposed to genocide - but you disagree with the UN on the definition, and think this is justified, so that shouldn’t come as a surprise.
a genocide is a deliberate killing of civilians. Only Hamas deliberately targets civilians. IDF obviously could take more care in avoiding unnecessary death, but they don’t kill for fun as much as I know
(a) Killing members of the group; (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.Sure seems like Israel is trying to get a full bingo card on this one even if you reject the notion of «genocide».
And before you go for the “intent” get out of jail free card…
Israel’s Public Diplomacy Minister: "Erase all of Gaza from the face of the earth. That the Gazan monsters will fly to the southern fence & try to enter Egyptian territory or they will die & their death will be evil.
Gaza should be erased!"
Still questioning a genocidal intent?
How about Bibi Netanyahu saying “You must remember what Amalek has done to you, says our Holy Bible. 1 Samuel 15:3 ‘Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass’," .
Defense Minister Yoav Gallant called residents of Gaza, about half of whom are children, “human animals” as he ordered a “complete siege” on the enclave including a total blockade of food, fuel, and electricity.
Former military officer Eliyahu Yossian said the IDF must enter Gaza “with the aim of revenge, zero morality, maximum corpses,” and toldChannel 14 in Israel on Monday that “there is no population in Gaza, there are 2.5 million terrorists.”
Earlier this year, Israeli Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich said at an event in Paris, “There’s no such thing as Palestinians because there’s no such thing as a Palestinian people.” He also said the West Bank town of Huwara should be “wiped out” by “the state of Israel,” while Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu presented a map of what he called “The New Middle East”—without the illegally occupied West Bank, Gaza, or East Jerusalem—at the United Nations General Assembly just weeks before the onslaught in Gaza began.
Sure seems like a pattern of intent. I could find you that video of Bibi back in 2002 saying much the same if you like. This isn’t new.
up to 2005 UN, EU, America, Russia, Israel and a host of middle east intermediates like Qatar: provide aid to Gaza to encourage economic growth, is inevitably siphoned off by Hamas and others for military purposes
2006: UN, EU, America, Russia, Israel: “dear Hamas totes congrats on winning an election, wonder if you could abandon your pledge to genocide Israel and pick up the two state solution discussions where Fatah got up to? Else…y’know… we’ll have to cut aid and stuff coz that’s a bit terroristy”
Hamas: “Fuck you infidel! We look forward to strangling your children in their bed” incoherent yelling
UN, EU, America, Russia: deep sigh
Israel: cuts aid, blockades Gaza
Egypt: also blockades Gaza Yo you Hamas bois are batshit insane, no way we’re having an open border with you “Muslim brothers”…
Western social science students: why would Israel do this?
I’ll keep this simple.
You have a bunch of genocidal dipshits welding small arms embedded in a civilian population, propped up by a genocidal nuclear power with a modern military and F-35s.
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Which has the ability to deliver on that genocidal intent, and has been wiping out the other at a rate of between a dozen and five hundred to one over the past few decades?
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Why did Israel prop up Hamas over the moderate, secular PLO, who wouldn’t murder Israelis?
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It’s interesting how this leaves out 17 years of choking supplies of food and water to the civilian population of Gaza, the Israeli occupation and settlements in Gaza prior to 2005, the fact that that illegal occupation had been ongoing for 38 years despite international outcry, the naval blockade amounting to an act of war of its own, and really the whole broader context of the population of Gaza being displaced by ethnic cleansing by Israel since 1948.
I must have missed the part of the Geneva Conventions that says, “unless they started it.”
Oh wait, no I didn’t. Because it’s not fucking there.
Oppression breeds war.
a vacuous truth.
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Why would you defend the maintenance of an open air concentration to house millions of children (among others)?
Israel at least has a government and a democracy, and the government even has been somewhat honest with the NSO group and their crappy spyware tools - though I’m not sure why any of this needs to involve bombing hospitals or why “a functional democracy” has to be defended with such fervour, but hey at least we can hold onto the hope that democracy itself will mean that there will be a degree of accountability for those in power
A government with officials who openly admit to wanting to eradicate what’s left of the Palestinians.
Tactical placement and all haha
We need a hell of a lot more evidence to support that than we’ve seen, it would still run into major problems with proportionality/distinction standards regarding all the civilians they killed in and around the hospital, and it wouldn’t make a scratch with regard to the other civilian infrastructure they’ve targeted.
So then when terrorists use human shields, which in this case include literal babies, it’s okay to ignore the human shields and just indiscriminately attack?
I didn’t say “it was okey”. I said i do understand why that happens. I am also saying Israel takes some steps to limit the number of civil victims, while Hamas takes none
Hamas has a different agenda. It’s an asymmetrical conflict. The intention of Hamas and Hezbollah is to provoke Israel into a genocide. Hiding among the trees to incite Netanyahu to burn down the forest.
They want nothing more then to get on video Israeli forces massacring thousands of Palestinian civilians.
So for Hamas, it’s Christmas.
The goal of Hamas is not to provoke isreal into a genocide, it’s to make people think israel is committing a genocide. It’s definitely working.
Do you think what is happening is something different?
What was the correct response, according to you?
Not bombing a hospital.
I’m not an expert. So I’d defer to Lt. General James Glynn, survivor of Fallujah on how to approach the situation in Gaza.
I’d also refer to centuries of counter-insurgency that notes that massacring civilians only drives more recruits to the enemy cause, often recruits who are willing to engage in suicide missions.
Even leaving the hospital intact and doing nothing was a better option, and in fact, Israel is not fighting a war of desperation, and can actually afford to approach violence with deliberation and consideration.
The reason Netanyahu is behaving like Trump or George W. Bush is because he likes the idea of rushing in with stormtroopers and crushing the enemy, not because it’s actually a good idea. And that’s why Hezbollah provoked him in the first place.
I am not a fan of Netanyahu/Trump/Bush neither, however you only described what not to do.
I am still convinced that taking out Hamas out of Gaza is the viable long term solution. I don’t know about the hospital, and believe IDF knows better than me
Actually I said doing nothing would be better than what they did so that is, compared to bombing a hospital, a viable alternative.
Getting Hamas out of Gaza is going to be like getting white supremacists out of the US. It’s virtually impossible, but when the hearts and minds of the public are not pissed off due to poor governance, they can be reduced to a fringe group.
So if Israel stopped its thousand-year religious resentment plan, provided relief and then promoted equal treatment of the Palestinian public (installed enforcement of civil rights) that would do a tuckfun to reduce the significance of Hamas, Hezbollah or any other terrorist groups Iran or Russia might throw into the mix.
But this requires the right-wing identity groups in Israel giving up their ethnostate and modernizing their attitude — what is a challenge even for the EU and US (though the US stopped trying over a century ago).
So I’m going to watch Israel bath Gaza in the blood of Palistianians and make the rest of the world sick to their stomachs, and we’ll all promise, yet again, never to let this happen, to never forget.
See, the consequences of Israel jackbooting like every other imperialist is built into the paradigm. Sadly it’ll also add fuel to the antisemitic fires already igniting across the world. The thing is, Netanyahu and the IDF have bought the ticket to ride, as if no lives they cared about were actually in the balance.
First of all, you’re either ignorant or an idiot if you think what Israel is doing is “indiscriminate”.
More importantly, what’s your superior moral alternative when a force breaches borders, murders hundreds, and takes and holds hundreds more as hostages, and then retreats to the cover of hospitals and schools in a dense city?
Does that force come from a people who’ve been deprived of everything, forced into a system of apartheid, robbed of their freedom and routinely bullied, tortured and killed for half a century?
That seems to be an important factor to just leave out of the equation.
“Pick up the gun…” - Bill Hicks
No. Obviously? And it’s irrelevant. There’s no symmetry here.
If Hamas puts down their guns there would be peace.
If Israel puts down there guns there would be no Israel.
Only a Hasbara clown or a complete idiot would utter such stupidity, congrats.
More importantly, what’s your superior moral alternative when a force breaches borders, murders hundreds, and takes and holds hundreds more as hostages, and then retreats to the cover of hospitals and schools in a dense city?
Let’s do a little thought experiment here. Say that everything happened exactly as before except this time they retreated and hid inside Israeli hospitals and schools, on the Israeli side of the border, full of Israeli citizens. Do you think Israel would attack those terrorists in the same way?
Probably not, because those would be THEIR hospitals. There would be no tunnel system, no munitions stores, etc etc.
Your “gotcha” thought experiment is asking whether or not a country should treat the enemy country with equal caution to their own. Did you even consider it before asking it?
Do people think Hamas wouldn’t hide in a hospital? Theyve proved many times civilians aren’t a concern
Do people think that there can’t be two bad guys in a story? This isn’t a good vs evil fight.
“Good guys” are a myth invented by Hollywood to sell action figures
Do people think that there can’t be two bad guys in a story?
You’re not going to like the answer…
It truly is a wonder some can’t think that far
Really disappoints me.
In some ways, this might reflect the futility of multi party systems. At the end of the day, coalitions of multiple groups are still split into two camps of government and opposition. We have to stop seeing every conflict as us vs them.
This is a war between two terrorist organizations, one of them is funded by the United States.
We are funding terrorism. Your tax dollars are going to infant murder.
Same as it ever was
So, that justifies killing civilians?
no, that justifies invading a hospital
Tbf you’d have to invade the hospital to clear out the Hamas fighters using it as a base, especially if they were forcing it on the hospital staff
That or lay siege to it but uh… that’d be about as effective as issuing another round of sanctions on Iran at this point.
Ok, think it though. What happens when you bomb and invade a hospital filled with civilians?
you think it through. what is the alternative?
You edited your previous comment. That’s just bad form
are you seeing things again?
Prove that you didn’t edit your comment
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To not kill babies and people in hospital care. Innocent life is never worth the victory, no matter what the propganda has told you.
When you have time to get off your unicorn and enter the mortal realm where the rest of us live, please present to us a plan to solve this conflict that results in 0 dead kids. We are waiting, as is your Nobel peace prize.
“We cannot guarantee children will not die so any suggestion we take actions to avoid it as much as possible are entirely unrealistic.”
So because I don’t have the solution to fix everything with a neat little bow on top kids should die? Nice
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Anyone who supports murdering children is terrible. All the time. There’s no excuse from anyone to support murdering children regardless of who they think might be hiding among them.
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You’re just looking to twist everything I say.
Sure just tell the civilian dressed militants to not shoot from civilian populated areas.
You think those babies were getting the medical help they needed? All the fuel and supplies being redirected to Hamas fighters and their control of the building making normal work impossible was killing kids - I bet they’re much better off with it run by idf than Hamas.
That’s literally war. Become a general/propose a way to kill /apprehend people that look like civilians while hiding in civilian places
I think Hamas is hiding inside your house. What, do people think Hamas wouldn’t hide inside your house?
Do you consider that a good rebuttal. Truly a childish mind. Of course you can’t comprehend complex situations
“Oh yeah? Well you’re a dumb kid who can’t think smart thoughts”
Fucking gotem
Proving me right. Ouch
Hamas and Hezbollah are not the public of Palestine. So it raises the question if anybody cares. Netanyahu has made it clear to the rest of us he does not.
They look just like the public and fighting from where the public lives. What is Israel to do? Just accept getting massacred.
Does getting massacred justify massacring tenfold? I’m pretty sure the United States emmisaries had this very conversation with the state of Israel.
The thing is, Hamas and Hesbollah see provoking Israel to disproportionate reprisal as a worthwhile gambit. They know Netanyahu is glad to enact genocide justified by retaliation to terror. But now the world will get to watch the horrors of war under Israeli jackboots. And it will be ugly, and the world may have opinions about the Israeli state doing ugly things. The general opinion from the international community is changing. Along with the US’ unconditional support of a regional bully.
There are better ways. But Israeli state has rejected all alternatives, and is glad to throw stormtroopers into the mix.
And yes, the people of Israel, by a significant majority don’t want an overkill response. They want a path towards peace. But the far right does like us vs. them dynamics to consolidate power. It’s the same playbook Trump uses.
I’m not an expert. I don’t know how to fix this, but the experts were shown the door, so here we are. 👀
Well that’s war when you have superior firepower you’re gonna get more kills.
When Israel massacres civilians and massacres disproportionately, it then loses the peace. It also reveals its administration is too immature to deserve international support. The indiscriminate brutality of the IDF will reflect both on the the legitimacy of Israel and its allies, hence the conditions now added to US materiel support.
I’m very glad you don’t have any responsibility in this or any state affair.
ok but if they’re hiding in a hospital you dont need to bomb it? or do anything to it? hiding is not hurting anyone.
For conflicts like this leadership that is planning attacks or otherwise leading forces that are doing attacking, simply existing anywhere outside a prison cell is threatening. Hamas leadership knows that, they’re the ones putting hostpitals at risk by being there.
right, but my point is, however inconvenient it is, we always have a choice not to bomb hospitals. People take human shields, you don’t have to shoot through the human shields.
Do I have all the answers? No, but people go to school for war. Surely this has come up before at some point in the last 20,000 years?
You certainly should do your best to not shoot through human shields, agreed. But can it still sometimes be better to shoot through human shields if that’s what it takes to get very dangerous people vs letting them escape and threaten again later? I don’t know, it’s a hard question.
hiding is not hurting anyone.
The assholes in the hospital are still shooting at the assholes outside the hospital. Though I still agree the assholes outside shouldn’t be bombing it just to get at the assholes inside.
we saw this in Bosnia and Rwanda, too. This is similar to Bosnia/Serbia/Yugoslavia in a lot of way (especially the siege of Saraievo).
Depends. Are they artillery spotters. Are they leadership trying to claim to be in a safe you can’t tag me zone. Did they just momentarily hide their guns too. Ya gotta secure that shit one way or another otherwise you’ll get another massacre.
There are no good answers
Is that really what we’re debating? We all know it isn’t.
What’s important is can they get away with it before losing the support of those propping them up.
When the US and their buddies bombed the fuck out of Iraq and Afghanistan, and we all gathered around to watch the display of “shock and awe” did we bother to find out what they were bombing? Or did we just just go “take that, Taliban and Al-Qaida”?
Anything Israel are doing has been done before by their allies. They know it’s shady as fuck, but also know they got away with it too.
When the war on Iraq and Afghanistan started, I stood with my children, one in a stroller outside of Dick Cheney 's house in silent protest. During the Vietnam war I made several trips to Washington DC to protest the war. There is no upside to war. What we can do today, is call, email your senator and congressman that you want the killing to stop, you want the USA to stop funding this genocide. Call every day, it only takes a few minutes and if everyone did that, we would have an impact.
We did actually. With embedded reporters and human rights activists keeping an eye on things to make sure. There aren’t a ton of headlines about the US bombing hospitals because we avoided doing that. Shocking, I know.
When the US and their buddies bombed the fuck out of Iraq and Afghanistan, and we all gathered around to watch the display of “shock and awe” did we bother to find out what they were bombing? Or did we just just go “take that, Taliban and Al-Qaida”?
I was a teenager when that happened and didn’t give a fuck about what’s going on in the world, honestly. I didn’t particularly care for 9/11 either tho, so there’s that.
So, what’re the chances you’ve got nothing to say about the cache of weapons & explosives they found under the hospital along with the fact that it was indeed a Hamas outpost?
???
After all you’re educated enough on the subject that you’re aware it’d been suspected as a Hamas outpost for years, yes?
???
Wonder how many people you’ve personally lied to that’ve seen through the manipulation and propaganda.
And to save you the trouble of responding, fake news, planted goods, paid actors - pick one and go fuck myself. Got it.
oh, i’m sure it can go lower. just give it time
So what have the israelis actually found??
What I saw was a handful of weapons and a laptop. Not some headquarters
Very unconvinced so far. But the fog of war and disinformation is in full swing
They release proof of the hostages being taken there directly after the attack.
It looks as if Hamas sensed the attack coming and pulled out before the IDF arrived
All the doctors there claiming there never was any Hamas there are kind of full of shit - if people with a meat cleaver walking the hallways having people with bags on their heads in tow is normal there I’m not sure what to think anymore…
It would be completely normal to take injured hostages/prisoners to a hospital, and keep them under guard. In fact it’s the required action in international law.
So no the presence of a couple bodies in the morgue and a few guys with AKs doesn’t prove shit.
You literally chose the most biased source to get your information from and are surprised when all they find are “a handful of weapons and a laptop.”
Yeah bud, they found a lot more then that, and no the people who committed the biggest Jewish genocide since the holocaust PROBABY weren’t thinking of required action in international law
You are 100% the type of intellectual to think that silence or eventual banal agreement toward you is genuine and not a placation to avoid someone who never learned how to be wrong.
Did you really just compare 1400 deaths to the Holocaust? What about the 10,000 Gazans? Are they not human enough for you?
And, no. Even CNN is running articles saying there needs to be more evidence.
Since launching its operation at the hospital on November 15, the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) have shown images of a tunnel shaft and military equipment, but have yet to show conclusive proof of the large-scale command and control center it alleges is there.
-CNN
Senior U.S. officials said Friday that they remained confident that Hamas and Palestinian militants had been operating under the complex of Al-Shifa Hospital in Gaza City, even as the Israeli military has struggled to produce proof to back its assertion that Hamas was using the hospital and its patients as human shields.
-New York Times
And I just went to go find those. I’ve been looking directly at the videos Israel released. Which are ridiculous on their face.
Yeah I did because it was the truth, and there’s no need to resort to whataboutism on the Israel/palastiniane crisis of all things. Yes I think 10,000 gazan deaths is awful, to try to just compare the situation based on numbers alone is just another manipulation, that would really only work on children. So you’re essentially a bully who tells himself it’s for a good cause.
That type of wording is incredibly common with publications trying to keep a poise of neutrality, as it is true that more evidence would clarify the situation. They aren’t denying the proof, they’re simply saying more will be needed, as any neutral publication would. Here’s a much more relavant snippet,
“The White House has backed Israel’s claims, saying that Hamas was storing weapons and operating a command node from Al-Shifa, citing US intelligence.”
My bias is trusting telescopes about 100x the strength of hubble pointed back at the earth’s surface. I think it’s a pretty fair bias but I guess we’ll see, I doubt this is a repeat of" guaranteed nuclear weapons" but obviously there’s potential.
Everyone is awful in the I/P crisis, an objective observer with the full backgroun will always, always side with Israel. The plight of the modern palastinian child is literally the only objectionable part of this and Hamas will continue to use this until they are replaced with another religious dictatorship.
Because with friends like you, eternally echoing the idea of their complete innocence, there’s about a 0% chance palestine is getting any less fueled by holy war anytime soon.
So the Palestinians are just numbers to you. Great. Thanks for the confirmation.
The last time the world took the White House’s word on intelligence without seeing the proof, we ended up with a 20 year hangover. You don’t get to handwave war crimes. You either have the evidence or you don’t. And before you say they need time to explore the tunnels, this is what robots are for. They even give a convenient video feed and if they get blown up then oh well, it was a robot. The entire assertion that they need time for soldier safety is bullshit.
Objective observers don’t accept war crimes without immediate mitigating evidence. Make believe graphics and maintenance tunnel hatches aren’t it. Neither is common middle eastern security guard equipment.
Also, you’ll notice I’ve never said Hamas was innocent. But only one side in this war is actively committing genocide.
Informal fallacies are best fallacies.
Argument from incredulity is “this sounds absurd, therefore it’s false.” That’s not what this is, this is just pointing out absurdity.
Think about it again, what’s the difference?
By the way, I didn’t say that this post claims it’s false. It’s worse. This post begs the reader to claim it’s false on the authors behalf
It’s sort of getting debated because it was used as the place where hostages where kept and where Hamas militia were operating from. But I guess that wasn’t significant enough to raise eyebrows.
Hamas should be operating out of a Palestinian military base.
(/s and if you’re not sure why please do look it up)
i used to support 🇵🇸 then they paraded innocent cadavers through their streets. Even i a communist have my limits
But bombing is always criminal. IDF are cowards to not storm in with swords shields
You used to support (Palestine) but then the (entire 5M current population of Palestinian) paraded innocent cadavers through their streets?
IDF are cowards to not storm in with swords shields
Lol?
