Absolutely shocked that the South African oligarch/gamer is a white supremacist.
He’s not a gamer just wants the incel cred
His desperation to impress a bunch of dweebs on the internet is as bizarre as it is pathetic.
I genuinely wouldn’t swap spots with Musk if it meant I had to adopt his character and reputation. Fuuuuck that I’m happy where I am.
I agree, I’d rather make a million dollars ethically than have what Elon has along with his ethics.
I feel like this is an example of the dangers of surrounding yourself with a monoculture. Maybe Elon was always exactly this way, but he was seemingly previously tempered by the notably distinct moderation policies at Twitter. Once he owned it and stripped that moderation, there’s nothing holding the pendulum anymore and he swings pretty far the other direction.
Maybe he was always this way and not public about it, but things changed for the worse right around when his trans daughter came out.
Between that and covid I think he went down a rabbit hole further entrenching things and turned into a MAGA type as that rabbit hole does to those that go down it.
And now he won’t even listen when his brother and the chair of the board of Tesla tells him he’s hurting the brand.
Edit: just to clarify, “the woke mind virus” is what thinks took his daughter away, and now he is hellbent on destroying it, not realizing it’s him who’s been infected by hate and bigotry
Between that and covid I think he went down a rabbit hole
Nahh… he was always this way. If your daughter coming out as trans “turns” you into a right-winger, it just means you were always a right-winger.
I don’t think that’s quite the same.
You might always lean a certain way, but before, he maybe didn’t really care about trans people one way or another. As soon as his daughter came out as trans though he becomes faced with a choice.
Some people when they are faced with the choice, even if they might seem like they’d go against their child, don’t.
He doubled down unfortunately and made the wrong choice.
He doubled down unfortunately and made the wrong choice.
No, that’s not the choice he made. The status quo rewarded Phony Stark for being a right-wing douchebag - long before he even had a daughter . He chose to remain a right-wing douchebag because he was rewarded for it. He simply made the choice the vast majority of the rich either has made or will eventually make.
That doesn’t make sense.
Right wing and left wing have actual meanings, not “good guys and bad guys”
Right wing and left wing have actual meanings
Yes, they do… which is specifically why there is no such thing as a “good” right-winger.
So once he wouldn’t get in trouble for openly being a bigot, he openly became a bigot?
He owes his entire life to apartheid and slavery in all senses that matter. And even when he was everyone’s hero and a real life Tony Stark, he threw a temper tantrum when divers chose to rescue children and not stroke his ego. To the point he accused one of the divers of pedophilia, ran an investigation, and used a team of lawyers to protect himself from any consequences.
Musk has always been a dipshit
I mean that checks out. Trump has made his ilk say the quiet part out loud these days
And why democracy is important as a form of error correction. People can have their opinions, and inevitably we all get things wrong (magnitude of things we get wrong varies a lot). But when someone has a large concentration of power we all have to deal with the fallout from their malfunction. Companies the size and import of Twitter, Facebook, Reddit should be democratically controlled, some kind of cooperative.
Fully agreed. The authoritarian institution of shareholders and CEOs makes large companies prone to arrogance and short-term decision-making, democratic control of these large companies would make the economy much healthier.
I can’t tell which is the bigger influence but he has certainly gone down the right wing rabbit hole and also insulated himself from all critique as a billionaire who has everyone he talks to regularly on his payroll or otherwise benefitting from him. A bad mix.
Also the part where his parents ran an emerald mine there.
Zambia. That’s where the mine was.
To be fair, gamers are the most oppressed minority…
/sarcasm
Once an Afrikaans always an Afrikaans. I bet he vacations in Orania lol
Imagine being literally the richest person in the world. You can afford anything, you can go anywhere, you can do anything. But you spend most of your free time begging for attention from absolute strangers. What a pathetic little bitch.
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Enough money helps you have the time, energy, and nutrition to craft happiness. You can pay someone to do the lawn, clean the house, and handle some day to day tasks. You can sleep without worrying if you’ll afford food and a roof tomorrow. You can get healthcare.
After that it’s up to you. If you put the money in charge you’ll be miserable. If you spend all that extra time going down conspiracy rabbit holes you’ll be miserable and try to make everyone else miserable. If you craft some hobbies that you enjoy, get in shape, maybe learn to play an instrument, go rock climbing, travel to see the sights, and generally don’t worry about what loud people on the Internet do or think of you then you’ll have a pretty good shot at happiness.
Money can’t buy happiness, but it can give you the opportunity to find it.
Kanye has really gone off the rails but still one of the lyrics he got most right…“Having money’s not everything, not having it is.” If you’ve got money, it doesn’t make you happy. But not having money is crippling and debilitating.
That is exactly it. I’ve been middle class. I’ve been poor as fuck. My mental health much prefers middle class.
Even rich people have conspiracy theories believe it or not.
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Right? If I had even a fraction of a percent of his wealth, I’d disappear into a life of anonymous bliss, never to be heard from again.
MySpace Tom comes to mind. Bless that guy.
This is the line of thinking that gets me to listen to the “no such thing as an ethical/moral/good billionaire” types. These are people who had $50 million, $100 million, $500 million, and decided they had to keep working, acquiring, and exploiting.
After awhile, it becomes competitive. Like achieving a high score on a leaderboard. Most of the billionaires are now over 70 hence the race to squeeze everything before they die so that they can “win”.
Right? If I was that rich I’d get attention by… actually doing helpful things with the money.
Shit commission a giant statue of yourself that urinates Coca-Cola into a public fountain, free coke for everyone, just go to the PP Statue! That’s what I’d do…
Course I’m female so my statue would have to be squating, that may make it unwieldy…
Creative liberties may be taken when designing a statue of yourself, so don’t worry, you can take any pose you want
If you’re squatting, it comes straight down instead of in an arc where the wind can blow it around. Easier to fill your cup that way. I endorse this plan!
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He really does need a hobby. Maybe he can take up sailing or adventuring. Then we don’t have to hear about him at all until some fawning obituary lauding his contributions to humanity and recognizing the pioneering spirit that led to his tragic and early demise.
I’ve always thought being “proud” of your race, any race, is a weird concept.
Like, you didn’t do anything to be white, or black, or asian. Why would you take pride in something you had no agency in?
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- Sexuality
Nah. Queer pride is a good thing.
It’s not pride as in “I am proud of this painting I made.” Rather, it’s pride as in “rejecting shame for being queer”.
“Pride is not the opposite of shame, but it’s source. True humility is the only antidote to shame.” -Uncle Iroh
People really don’t understand these slogans. For example, we can look at “Black Lives Matter.” It was just a poetic way to say “black lives should matter.” The problem with replying with “all lives matter” is that they don’t all matter. (Especially in American society LGBT and Native tribes don’t always do so well either.) Which is the problem in the first place. These people are denying the issues.
Exactly. “Black Live Matter” is a statement of imperative, as in “look at these people you have been ignoring”, while “All Lives Matter” is saying “there is no problem, everything is fine”.
I don’t think that is what it is saying at all. I think that is what some people saying it want to pervert it into out of bigotry. To me it is obvious that when a disenfranchised demographic is disproportionately affected by violence and persecution, that demographic needs to have its collective voice heard and bring attention to an unfair societal imbalance.
Fundamentally there is nothing in a humanistic argument that would diminish that, just for the record, regardless whether some use it as a rhetorical device to spread hate. As a humanist there is no question to align oneself with Black Lives Matter, because everyone needs to and have the right to have their voices and grievances heard, especially when they cry out in unison and in pain. Everyone.
People have no idea how if feels for kids to be made to feel as they don’t belong or that there is something wrong with them. It infuriates me that schools can’t teach inclusivity due to terrorist groups like Moms for Liberty.
But why should rejecting shame automatically turn into pride? I’m not “proud” of every part of me that I’m not ashamed of.
Plus, it’s weird how the things are seen differently. “Queer pride” is usually seen as “sticking it to the homo/transphobes”, while someone saying they’re “proud of being cishet” sounds like they just hate LGBT people (and I mean, that’s probably correct). Why isn’t “proud of being gay” seen with the same acception?
They are proud in order to fight the shame that conservatives constantly tell them they should feel for existing. It’s a tool for empowerment and fighting back against oppression.
So in your opinion, if we reached a level of society where no one is oppressed for their identity/sexuality, would it just cease to “be an idiom”?
Let’s get there first and then we decide. For now, I’m proud to be gay.
“Let’s get there and then decide” is usually not a good way to tackle issues… but I guess it’s not up to us anyway to decide, unfortunately it looks like it’s going to take a long time before that becomes reality.
That is a hypothetical so far removed from any semblance of reality that it doesn’t even merit discussion.
Might as well ask “well if we were all made of purple goo would we have anything to fight about?” It’s fucking nonsense. Human nature dictates that a majority will always oppress a minority, even when it’s not intentional. It’s selective pressure, pure and simple. If you have a population that’s ⅔ one kind and ⅓ another, the society will naturally trend to cater to the ⅔ more than the ⅓, and it doesn’t take much thinking to understand why. And even if the smaller group grows to reach numerical equity, their historical disadvantage will stay with them for many, many generations, putting everyone born into that historical minority at a disadvantage from birth.
That’s called systemic inequality, and it is real and pervasive in human societies. It’s built into the system and will never go away, so we will ALWAYS have to also create ways to alleviate it.
Entertaining hypotheticals is kind of a fundamental part of argumentation.
Human nature dictates that a majority will always oppress a minority, even when it’s not intentional. It’s selective pressure, pure and simple.
That’s not true at all. Left-handed people are a minority. Blond people are a minority. People over 2 meters are a minority. But none of those minorities are currently “oppressed” because of that.
Society catering more to the majority doesn’t mean the minority has to be oppressed. Very tall people have a lot of issues because architecture, clothing and everything else is tailored mainly to people with an average height, but try saying tall people are “oppressed” and see how many agree.
The oppression we see now is because people feel the moral superiority in “being normal”, and everything else is different, weird and therefore wrong. But just like left-handed people stopped being considered spawns of Satan in all of civilized society, we can get to that point for homosexuality too.
Saying a world where LGBT people aren’t oppressed is as likely as a world where “we’re all made of purple goo” honestly feels offensive to the effort activists have been making for all these decades.
Pride as a reaction to shame is pretty unhealthy, from a mental health perspective. There are people trying to shame everyone for everything. Don’t be fat, don’t be thin, don’t be pretty, don’t be ugly. If everyone was distractingly screaming about their pride for everything they feel ashamed of the world would be obnoxious.
I think pride as a movement made sense when everything queer was a hidden subculture.
I feel like that’s past us. There are LGBT pro-hamas groups now. I think we’ve hit peak queer when there are queer activists for groups that would hang them.
You’re also being kind of obnoxious trying to knock something down that does not need to be knocked down, ngl.
OBNOXIOUS AND PROUD, BABY! 🌈
Anyone that claims to be proud of being white or straight is doing it in opposition of black pride, or queer pride, etc. It might as well be the same as the all lives matter outrage.
Because that’s a logical flaw. “If black people and white people deserve the same rights, and black people can be proud of being black, why can’t white people be proud of being white?”
The difference between normal people and racists is that normal people might think of it as weird, but don’t talk about it because they don’t really care about “white pride”, while racists openly declare it and use the “fallacy” to stir the pot.
I can’t believe I’m being downvoted on Lemmy of all places for thinking “white pride” is bad and and the alternatives aren’t. I don’t even have a rebuttal, I’m just flabbergasted.
Edit: I was 0/5 when I typed this.
I’m being charitable and chalking it up to people with 0 social awareness or life experience who don’t realize how much they are enabling the real bigots.
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Maybe some healthy open discussion would do us some good then, instead of barricading oneself behind semantic barbed wire in fear of having ones beliefs challenged.
Short answer - because the original events were called “Pride” and other events that followed that model and style can literally trace the name to two organizers of the original event, Brenda Howard and Robert A. Martin.
Long answer…
What is important to remember about Pride is it is specific. Gay, Lesbian and Bisexual liberation marches pre-date Prides but they were more like a conventional protest and they were poorly attended because you had to expect police violence. They were dour, focused primarily on the pain and hardship of oppression. It was mostly people dressed to look respectable marching with signs to appeal to the cis/hetro masses in a “hey look we’re actually just like you!” kind of way.
“Pride” was different. They organized the first event around the concept of Independence day style activities. It was supposed to have the feel of an emancipation celebration and was originally intended to become a National day of observance of the five days of Riots at Stonewall, something that a lot of queer people decided to rally around as essentially the literal fight for independence of queer culture in the US. Shortly thereafter a lot of cultural aspects of Queer community done for fun that actually create a culture like Ballroom culture, Drag performance, dance, theater, caberet, burlesque, various bizzare kink related specialities were spotlighted. Pride took all that stuff that was happening in the shadows and turned it into a public festival. In part it was intended as a “fuck you we are not afraid and there is more of us than you think” but it also gave the public a look at the spectacle of open queer joy. That it was fun and weird meant it became a proper festival. It spread and other events that followed that format also became “Prides”. Over time other communities and sub groups within the growing coalition came to define their own means to celebrate together and also came to call then things like “Trans Pride”.
So at least in part the “Pride” portion is a historical naming convention for a very specific style of event and festival with a tracable history. It is helpful to understand that “Pride” has a secondary and silent implication of Pride Event "Woo Happy Pride! " is at some point like wishing someone Happy Christmas. “Proud” is in part an event theme that euphemizes that original “fuck you, our culture is valid and we won’t be shamed out of the public eye.”
Someone going on about “cis pride” is at some point basically just trying to carbon copy a format of protest made for a specific purpose while entirely misunderstanding the original usage. Some argue they don’t really need a specific public culture festival or a protest because they are the dominant culture. They get their culture fest from national and religious tinted celebrations and they are accepted as a norm so the protest element is unnecessary. It more comes across more as someone who just doesn’t like how queer people have claimed a slice of public space and want to have yet another party to celebrate themselves. It’s like throwing an Independence day style celebration but when there is no commemorative event at it’s core and no independence that needed to be fought for at all.
Yeah, I guess there’s a huge distinction between pride as an emotion and Pride as an event at this point. Maybe that’s also why it’s seen with a very different meaning, I don’t think “””cis pride””” ever had an event, and if it did it was probably just a gathering of transphobes chanting slurs.
Straight prides… Have existed… and you are correct that the theme of straight prides were more about creating a narrative about how cis hegemony is unfairly under attack by the LGBTQIA making them in effect anti queer bigotry parades driven more by spite than anything. The organizers of such events have had traditionally firm links to the alt right.
The end effect of the Boston straight pride event was like an empty parody of a Pride event that just looks like an American Independance day celebration with a bunch of people wearing jeans and t-shirts waving American flags with a bunch of signs saying stuff like “Remember who gave birth to you” and a bunch of Trump related signage making it kind of vaguely indistinguishable from any other conservative rally.
The fact that when given a chance to organize a straight pride parade it just tends to take on the nationalist symbols of the country it is performed in kind of demonstrates that maybe there isn’t a whole lot of point to the event celebrating straight culture as the participants can’t really identify what is unique about being straight themselves because you are just supposed to assume it as a default…
Oh. I looked up “cis pride” and found nothing so I assumed that was it.
Then yeah, that just reinforces your last comment. I still think the difference in treatment feels unfair, but I can’t really blame it when LGBT people take these occasions to show off their best side and straight ones show their worst instead. I guess it’s a conversation for a different century (when hopefully we all learned not to ridicule people different from us).
Because it’s the same thing as gloating when you win. It makes you look like an asshole rubbing it in the face of the less fortunate.
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That’s because of the current situation though. People who say it now are like that, so “normal people” don’t say it because it would automatically mean being grouped with them. So only people who don’t care about being labeled as homo/transphobic keep saying that and the “stereotype” reinforces itself.
Or rather, as I said in my first comment, I don’t get why should anyone say they’re proud of being cishet, same as for being proud of the opposite. But we don’t think people in a gay pride parade are being “heterophobic”, it’s seen as a normal thing (by most reasonable people, I mean).
If we look at current society I get the difference in treatment, but from a neutral point of view it’s weird that virtually the same expression, just with sexualities swapped, is seen as either empowering or discriminating.
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I still don’t see why something that rightly stopped being a source of shame should turn into a source of pride.
The circumstances of hetero and non-hetero people are vastly different and that’s obvious, but that doesn’t mean they should be “proud” of that. Saying you’re proud of something doesn’t make the people who discriminate you for it disappear.
I know a debate has derailed when social splintering turns it into a semantic game of RISK.
Given the amount of people that seem to base their whole personality exclusively using this list, it will be a long while before we can move away from these as a collective.
It’s the most interesting thing about some people, that’s why.
Overtly stating anything about your identity is one of the dumbest and most boring things.
I don’t care how you identify. It doesn’t tell me anything about you, and it doesn’t tell me anything about the thing. And generally, it’s considered rude to talk about a person’s identity.
You’d be better off telling me something you’re interested in.
John Doe (likes trains)
There are two kinds of people… No wait, three kinds of people that care.
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people who are emotionally fragile, mentally ill, or otherwise can’t handle literally any friction of any kind in any of their interactions.
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people who are excessively polite, virtue signaling, it SJWs. These people don’t care for themselves but they care SO MUCH because they think it makes to OTHER people.
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people who are afraid of complaints or legal action (business, public figures, etc)
I can count on one hand the number of times identity has mattered in a human interaction I’ve had.
The amount of energy we waste of identity is fucking absurd considering the literal zero value or brings to the world.
You don’t care. LGBT people are not necessarily prideful because of you. They’re prideful because of the half of America that wants them oppressed, imprisoned or dead because of who they are.
If that’s not you, they’re not talking about you, but they are still facing a lot of homophobic people. Until that ends, pride is the correct reaction to those people.
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Sometimes there’s basis for patriotic pride. As a specific example, I live next to Russia, in a free country that respects LGBT rights. I know for a fact that those rights would be completely eroded if Russia conquered us. Therefore it makes sense to take some pride in my country and the armed forces of my country who are strongly discouraging that from happening.
So your pride is defending what you find is right, and your nation happens to be aligned with it currently. If your nation became homophobic, you wouldn’t follow it, would you?
If your nation became homophobic, you wouldn’t follow it, would you?
No, I would not. But I’m not sure if I could be able to translate that into any action that had effect.
Sexuality
When people talk about “LGBT Pride”, they’re not talking about the “a feeling of deep pleasure or satisfaction derived from one’s own achievements” definition, they’re talking about the “confidence and self-respect as expressed by members of a group, typically one that has been socially marginalized” definition.
It’s almost like words can have more than one meaning.
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I would argue otherwise. Prides have always had a political aspect and part of that was a way to get a sense of numbers. Suppression of LGBTQ identities by early “support” groups encouraged narratives of it being rare, that it is natural to be lonely and shut away without a community. If you are small as a minority you tend to be meek and hide. Gay hook up spots were designed to hide people so true numbers were often impossible to have any notion of how many people were actually there. Some were just utterly flabbergasted by the numbers when police raids caused everyone to flee at once… But the news the next morning would make it sound like there was only a handful.
Consolidation and visibility, the understanding of strength in numbers has always been a factor of Pride. So to has been education and safety campaigns. While it has been a place to acknowledge the dead and bring hope to those who are afraid to be out it is absolutely for those at the festivities itself too.
And then everyone clapped.
I think of Pride as an acceptance of your sexuality, whatever it may be. The pride in question is a self esteem that comes from being comfortable in who you are.
Well when they have different meanings for everyone then what good are they? I often feel like when you point out things like the OP here, there’s a moving of the goal posts, or no true Scotsman-ing, what goes for one doesn’t go for the other. It’s an interesting question, why is it ok to be proud of your sexuality, which you have no control over, but not be ok to be proud of your color of skin, which you also have no control over?
Just redefining terms ad hoc depending on which side one happens to identify with makes the whole conversation suspect.
The last point could be argued, most people say/mean “proud of being their friend/brother/whatever”, and having mutual esteem with someone does take a degree of agency. It’s obviously moot if you have family ties with them but they hate you, but I don’t think I’ve ever seen people being proud of achievements of people who hate them.
The rest I agree, it feels weird unnecessary tribalism most of the time.
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A bit of stretch but this why I don’t like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protected_designation_of_origin. It is supposed to guarantee quality, but why wouldn’t someone be able to make the same quality of cheese given the same cows and quality process anywhere else? It seems to be some kind of weird territorialist pride.
It’s a matter of economics and quality over time. These regions have chosen to tool up for making foods and commodities that are essential to the Euro Zone and arguably the world.
If they go out of business, the quality and availability of the product overall will certainly suffer. And it may not be so extreme as going out of business; if they miss out on a capital investment because some investor sees potential in a competitor making a product elsewhere, maybe it’s death by a thousand cuts.
So we protect their brands. Yes, it is technically anti-competitive, for the greater good. And at the very least, for the good of the Euro Zone.
If it wasn’t for the unfair advantage of the PDO, maybe other regions would be tempted to tool up too, which could encourage quality and/or optimizations that would reduce the price, that could benefit the people too.
It doesn’t seem fair for the people who weren’t born in one of those privileged regions which were given many PDOs. It reminds me of feudal birth rights in some way.
I’m not sure, it is for the greater good of everyone eventually.
Also, some PDOs are captured by industrial groups who keep buying the little producers who made the PDO, and it protects them from competitors. This articles translated from French describes the situation in France: https://www-lafranceagricole-fr.translate.goog/a-la-une/article/759488/contrls-par-les-gants?_x_tr_sl=fr&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=wapp
why wouldn’t someone be able to make the same quality of cheese given the same cows and quality process anywhere else?
They would, but the opposite wouldn’t be possible because of regulations. I feel like it’s more of a “this product has been made in a place which enforces good practices, so you can be sure it’s healthy (to a degree)”. It’s kind of like originals and bootlegs, bootlegs could be as good as good originals, but originals will never be as bad as bad bootlegs.
It’s not just for quality, but for authenticity too, I think.
Foods that are fermented or aged can take on a unique flavor profile, based on the unique blend of bacteria and mold and yeast in the area. Even using the same milk from the same cows and processing it the same way, cheese that is naturally aged in a cave in France might taste different from cheese that’s aged in a cave in West Virginia. Not necessarily better or worse, quality-wise, but different. Not authentic.
Weather patterns, seasonal changes, and soil conditions are also distinct and varied in different places. The same grapes grow differently in German soil than they do in Kansas. The grass that the cows eat grows differently in different places, and this can have a significant impact on the flavors of the milk and cheese.
I’m American, but I used to work in a fancy wine store that sold a lot of imported cheese and groceries. I imagine that in practice, PDO must seem like an annoying mix of over-regulation and jingoistic propaganda – especially to someone in Europe. But it does seem to serve a purpose, even if in an overbearing way.
I think being proud of local food culture is more like community spirit or neighborhood pride. It’s like saying, “here’s something ingeniously delicious we created using only our limited local resources.” I don’t think of that quite the same way as “pride” about race, gender, sexuality.
Pretty sure they could sell the bacteria/mold and produce the same climate conditions in controlled room. I’m not against quality labels, I just don’t like the territorial aspect of it. I think authenticity is a bias based on public image and imagination.
In the abstract, yes, but when a group of people is oppressed because of one of those identifiers, it stops just being a born trait. It also identifies that you’re oppressed. Celebrating who you are with regards to that kind of trait (sexuality, sex, race, etc) isn’t a celebration of being born a certain way. It’s a celebration of self acceptance, and an act of rebellion.
You aren’t proud of what you were born with, you’re proud of what you were born with, because some people have tried to punish you for that what.
We can add college in there. Choice of college means next to nothing about someone’s intellect and personality. Usually it’s just rich and/or “legacy” people getting into the prestigious schools. They are almost always pushed into it, or convinced into it by others.
It’s a participation prize. Congratulations, you were born.
I “proud” of my poor eye sight, and and “proud” of my genetic high cholesterol 🎊🔥💯
I don’t get it. Why would one be? The whole point of pride is to in some sense feel and experience joy over the things that we like about ourselves or that stand out in a positive way. But maybe I’m missing something.
With whites you definitely have a point, but it’s a little different when whites have at various times in history attempted to erase your culture in numerous ways, including outlawing your language, clothing, music, dance, martial arts, traditional healing systems, religious beliefs, hair styles, etc, while converting you to what they believe to be valid and acceptable.
That’s being proud of your culture though, not your race. Culture is something you willingly engage in, and you definitely have the right to be proud of it (and that includes Italian culture, Greek culture and all other types of white culture as well).
But race? Saying “I’m proud of being black” means nothing when American black people and African black people barely have anything in common that isn’t the color of their skin.
Culture is very much tied to race and where those people came from. It still happens now. It should be obvious without explanation. It’s not at all difficult to find stories about black students sent home from school because their hair is “not ok.”
Culture is very much tied to race
True that. Candice Ownens is the perfect example of a racist POC disowning their entire culture to not be associated with anyone but white Republicans. She’s culturally white and it’s a choice.
It’s tied but it’s different. A lot of third+ generation immigrants have the same customs as locals, and you wouldn’t tell them apart if not for physical traits, for example.
It’s also weird how stuff that used to be shamed about turned to reasons of pride. We (as in, non-racist people) realized shaming people for their hair is stupid, why would being proud of it not be just as stupid?
It’s not weird at all. If one race has systematically tried to beat you down throughout history and convince you that your race and culture are inferior, there’s all the reason in the world to reclaim respect for all that your people almost lost, and tell that race to fuck off if they don’t like it, and be proud of it. Gay pride isn’t race based, but it’s definitely a similar thing from a different direction. It sounds like you need to spend significant time sitting and talking with people of cultures that have been through it.
It’s correct to demand equality and apologies for what happened in the past, but beyond it isn’t that just “pride” in being/having been discriminated?
I would love to talk more about this with people who are directly involved in it, but even then, races/sexualities are not a monolith and that person I spoke to might have a completely different opinion from the rest. Plus I feel like you need to be very intimate with someone to have that kind of talk, so it’s not easy at all. I also comment my opinions on the internet because it’s a simple way of finding people who disagree and might give you a different point of view.
isn’t that just “pride” in being/having been discriminated?
No. I can’t imagine there’s a single person who has ever felt legitimately proud about being discriminated against in a manner you suggest.
Proud of continuing the traditions of one’s ancestors so they aren’t permanently lost to historic racism or diluted in the modern melting pot, via artistic expression, etc, yes.
You still have plenty of time to talk to people and change your viewpoint.
That’s different though, the point of gay pride is recognising that your value in society and your person ought to be respected, against a larger imposing force or hivemind so to speak, just like black pride, etc, and valuing your open expression of pride, closeted queers could just as easily argue that being in the closet is about valuing your own person on an internal level rather than how others may expect you to express yourself - ie, you may value yourself in a way different from how society does. Just like how some sex workers view themselves as tools, not sex toys but rather as healers and value themselves as such, once you dig deep down on all this, you’ll realise that gay pride is as much a “reaction” of the person to society as being closeted would be, one is preferable to individualist cultures, the other is more conformist, either way you pick your poison.
Seriously, I said similar from a different direction, not the same.
Lying about who you are is not psychologically healthy and should not be praised or encouraged.
People who unironically feel conflicted about being proud of overcoming or experiencing XYZ, e.g. taking a big dump or something as simple as eating an extra large McDonald’s double junior whopper, would like to dispute that pride is more often than not understanding that being ashamed of something is giving away your agency, by automatically saying, that was bad, the end, whereas being prideful at least gives you opportunity to reflect on the value of the experience itself rather than to simply paint it as inherently good or bad.
Because racist people still exist and still control the narrative, that’s why. Pride is protection.
I always read black as “American black people”, and there there definitely is a shared culture, of having ancestors that were slaves and not knowing where in Africa they came from because the slavers didn’t care
That’s because their ancestors experienced a forced diaspora and slavery that was partially designed to destroy their sense of culture and identity. It’s a distinct group of people from Africans. Black is just how they choose to refer to themselves.
These sociological definitions aren’t always perfect. Strictly speaking, Musk is African, but he isn’t who you usually think of as part of that group.
This is the most obnoxious pedantry I’ve ever heard. Black Americans celebrate their old world origins just as much as Irish Americans celebrate theirs. They can’t be more specific to the tribe or country because that knowledge was fucking erased. Black is the culture, broadly speaking.
If you belong to a group that has been historically oppressed, being proud of your race/culture is a sign of rebellion.
It’s weird to have pride in race if you experience no adversity because of it. Since white people don’t face the same kind of challenges white pride just feels like “I’m proud of my privilege”, whereas with black pride it’s more “I’m proud of who I am despite the challenges I face because of it”. Same goes for other things like LGBT pride, it’s celebrating who they are even if it cause them a lot of hardship.
Couldn’t it be sort of an affiliation with the full history of the White Man, for better or for worse? I don’t take pride in my skin color, but it does represent a fascinating time in human history and early human migration. This is purely academic of course, no actual person who says they are “proud of being white” would ever say that or likely even be aware of the history and the science, but it could be.
The problem lies in the definition of “pride”. You can be proud of who you are without comparing yourself to others. You can be proud of who you are without thinking less of others, or treat them as inferiors. In fact I’d say it’s mandatory but not everyone gets that.
Not sure where I’m going with this, not arguing for or against per se, just exploring the concept because it’s complex, interesting, and sadly ever so topical.
Agreed
Anyway “white” is too broad an identifier to mean anything, unlike groups which have had their cultures systematically oppressed. There’s already widely accepted celebrations of “Irish pride”, “Italian pride”, “Polish pride”, etc. Not a lot of specifically “English pride” celebrations because the British empire already made that the default for centuries.
This “pride” thing is specifically meant to mean “we survived, and continue to survive.” Anyone advocating for “white pride” doesn’t even understand what they’re talking about. There is no “white identity” to be protected because it has never been under threat of annihilation. It’s like stationing a battalion of troops around a public park in a suburb because you’re convinced that The Enemy wants to take it over. Nobody’s coming for your playground equipment.
If you look close enough at the definition of any word, it kind of breaks apart.
It’s all semantics either way, just treat people with kindness and respect, and then you can be proud of who you are. That said, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with being “proud” of ones features or traits. For instance, I have very blue eyes that have passed down through a ridiculous number of generations (n.b. not the exact same set), and I’m “proud” of them, in the sense that I’m glad I have them, that they remind me of my heritage and ancestry and family, and I hope that they will pass on to my offspring. I won’t cry myself to sleep if they don’t, but I think it’s “nice”.
Is there something wrong with me feeling this way? I don’t think so. How could it be? It’s nobody’s business how I feel about my eyes. I go out of my way to treat people with kindness and respect, and I am proud of that. But also the eye thing.
Maybe that’s the problem, perhaps we should just stop nagging and lecturing each other on our identities and preferences all the god damned time. Aren’t you all tired of it also?
I can relate, I also have a weird hair quirk my grandma had as well, I like it and I’m glad I have it, but I wouldn’t really say I’m “proud” of it.
Yes, in the end it’s all semantics and there’s nothing really “wrong” with it, I just find it weird, like astrology or ultras, idk.
I just find it weird, like astrology or ultras, idk.
I think you accidentally hit the nail on the head there. When you and I feel proud of our features, we are proud over the features themselves- not proud of identifying as part of the group of “all blue eyed people” or “all weird hair quirk people”.
It’s the affiliation with, to a greater or lesser extent, some group, and that group’s interests:
As a proud blue-eyed person, I couldn’t care less about what all other blue-eyed persons think, and unless there’d be fewer than a thousand left of us I couldn’t even conceive of any collective agenda such a group might have had.
As a proud black person, I would be highly motivated to care about and affiliate with all other black persons, because they would share experiences with me, and to a great extent negative or hateful.
As a proud homosexual, I would likewise affiliate with others of my kind or who have had similar experiences.
Even as a proud Ultras member, I can see how you would affiliate like so, even if the reason for it would rest on an artificial division between some arbitrary group- belonging to Ultras is not a physical trait, it’s made up, but there at least is some rationale.
As a proud white person? If white people were selectively persecuted, I sure as hell would affiliate with them, but they aren’t.
So, Elon dislikes that white people can’t be proud of being white.
Why would a person of any race be proud of their race? Shouldn’t people be proud of their own accomplishments, and those of the people they’ve helped?
I never really understood the rationale here. I support Pride Month for example, but I think the language is kind of wrong.
Shouldn’t people be proud, despite traits which have historically been denigrated?
This is a serious question BTW.
When your ancestors have been targetted, racialized, abused and enslaved for centuries and the effects of that are still felt to this day, and when you are still being racialized and abused because of the colour of your skin and your heritage, you feel like you have nothing to be proud of. The world is telling you you don’t matter, that ‘your kind’ deserves it.
THAT’S why POC are so adament about being proud. Because when a racist tells them they’re worth nothing, and when the world tells them they’re nothing, they need to rely on themselves and their community.
Being proud is resistance. Against all the shit that has been done to POC, and the shit that is still being done today.
White pride is not resistance, other than resistance to the idea of black pride taking over from a centuries old status quo where white people were the only ones who ‘mattered’. You’re not resisting anything with ‘white pride’. You’re taking away voices and dignity of POC.
It’s no wonder the only people who unironically say ‘white pride’ are fucking nazis. That should inform anyone about the whole concept of it. Don’t weaponize your whiteness.
In my mind, LGBTQ Pride is generally called that because Shame was, at least in contemporary history, a huge driver in suppressing LGBTQ existence and freedoms. If it was called LGBTQ No-More-Shame, it would remain antithetical but might not be as catchy. I’m sure other groups will employ the same argument, but it is difficult to overstate how powerful shame and social stigma specifically suppressed LGBTQ expression, and still attempts to in some ways.
There are other better choices than No-More-Shame.
LGBTQ Honor / Dignity / Glory (on second thought, this one may conjure images of bathroom stalls, so maybe not this one)
Dignity is pretty solid.
To be fair, the right would immediatly counter with “white dignity” or “straight dignity” and accuse everyone holding up LGBTQ±dignity or black dignity of denigrating white dignity and complain about an atmosphere where “whites aren’t allowed to feel the dignity of their race anymore”.
Because that’s just how they work.
I think there are a few major problems here:
There legitimately are powerful people who are systemically oppressing non-whites/non-straights.
There is a significant amount of people that lack empathy and have never experienced personally this type of systemic oppression, and thus don’t believe it’s real. This is particularly evident on the right where empathy is in short supply. See also: my abortion is the only moral abortion, the government shouldn’t be supporting these freeloaders (but make sure my HUD/food stamps/social security show up on time!), Obamacare needs to be abolished (but don’t drop me from my insurance I need my meds!), etc.
Back to point number one, even the blue team has been unfortunately ignorant about the level of systemic oppression and often serves as a validating factor. It’s one of the small things that I think have been positive about the social media era, these stories are getting to far more people than they used to. When I was in school in the 2000’s, if you asked basically anyone in my predominantly white school (including me, tbh) they probably would have said racism is basically a solved problem and is only a tiny little fraction of the actual experience for POC/LGBTQ++, etc. People with empathy pick up on this faster, but if you say ACAB in a room full of blue team, you’re probably still going to get a lot of pushback…
Speaking of ACAB, a big part of the problem is that people just do not fucking get nuance. Most of even the staunchest ACAB supporters don’t believe that everyone who is a cop or will become a cop is a bastard/bad person, the point is that the institution of policing in this country is systemically racist, systemically corrupt, and systemically insulated from consequences in a way that is unjust and bad for society. Or, shorter, we have heard of the Stanford Prison Experiment, and know that when you give people this type of power you can expect bad things. Thus, there isn’t a way to be a moral cop because the system removes the ability to stay moral, which is also why a lot of those that we would call “good” cops are forced out of the field. Anyway, pretty fucking hard to fit that on a bumper sticker, so we end up with things like ACAB/BLM/Pride, etc.
Extremely well said!
Yeah, but at least then you can retort with saying “that’s not a very dignified thing to say” while sipping tea with your erect pinkie finger.
Also, I would just open up the gaytes on Pride month, henceforth known as Dignity Month. Let the straights celebrate their missionary position all month long!
Idk the stereotype that gays are indignant polyamorous debaucherists still persists to this day. Even though the straights are still equally as debaucherous. Put differently, people have a different perception of guys who have a lot of Tinder hookups as opposed to guys that have a lot of Grindr hookups. Gay men are much more likely to be slut-shamed than straight men.
I don’t actually think Dignity is a better choice than Pride, I just didn’t feel like being argumentative to someone who I think was receptive to my initial argument. I agree with you 100%.
He’s completely wrong too. Celebrating American, European, or general Western heritage is very commonplace, to the point that the US even has a holiday for itself. If that isn’t enough for someone, then odds are they’re just a fucking racist.
Most of the time, there’s a country or region you can celebrate the heritage of. The only exceptions are Jewish people and black people, but that’s because they had forced diasporas, persecution, and/or slavery. Their ethnic identity to a region was stripped from them.
I think everyone should be proud of their race, which is the human race… No matter ones ethnicity, sexual orientation, etc. we are all the same race. Yes, I know in this context race means something else. But, my point still stands. If everyone would stop worrying about our little meaningless differences and realize that we are all the same race. We would be much better off. Yes, I know that will never happen.
This has always bugged me. It’s strange how labeling someone as “racist” actually works in the racists favour; you’re partially validating their point by implying there’s a greater biological gap than actually exists.
Bigot works well as a replacement if this bugs you, and it’s probably more accurate, people with “racist” views are more likely to be homophobic too.
I mean, idk about other cultures/langages but it does feel weird as fuck to french speakers that English even has a concept of “race” for humans in the first place. In french we only use the word “race” for animals. If you want to refer to someone’s ethnicity, well, that’s the word you use (“ethnie”). Although iirc the distinction is quite recent (from the enlightenment period or something).
And we also have the word “raciste” which refers to one’s belief that there are human races, it doesn’t validate that belief.
I’m considering this from the perspective of taxonomy. Race is basically a synonym for “subspecies” which is pretty fucked up.
Yeah iirc that’s also why human races aren’t really a thing in french.
Although we do use that word for animals’ breeds (which are just subspecies iirc) but I guess that’s just because it wouldn’t really be french if there were no weird exceptionsAt least the French got that going for them.
Hurry up and overthrow your government already, everyone is waiting for one of your classic revolutions.
yea yea yea we’re waiting till the very last moment so it can look all theatrical and fabulous
Nah, racist is a descriptor of a viewpoint, not something that’s inherently built into people because of their ethnicity. So it makes about as much sense to say that calling someone a racist is “validating their point” as saying calling someone a flat earhter somehow validates their ideas about flat earth theory. It’s just a silly line of reasoning.
Biologically we’re the same species, not the same race. There’s no concept of race in humans
Why would a person of any race be proud of their race?
In the cases of actively oppressed people, particularly people that were assigned a race regardless of actual national origin, and then were denigrated for being that race, it’s a point of pride to say that “our people” (who you basically forced “us” to become not on the basis of our shared heritage or nationality but purely on the basis of lumping together everyone with the same color skin) survived and thrived, and eventually developed our own culture despite the shitty circumstances.
White people don’t fit into this category because nobody forced people to be white and then said they weren’t citizens in the country or that they could only live in certain towns, forcing them to band together as one and develop their own white people culture with basically strangers, and nobody robbed them of their history and forced them into brutal chattel slavery for hundreds of years.
Edit: Most white people who care to do so still have an understanding of their lineage, national origin, religion, and/or festivals, and many of those are or were celebrated in their own ways: St Patty’s Day, Octoberfest, Christopher Columbus Day (which was basically an Italian pride day originally), Catholic holidays, Jewish holidays, etc.
This opens a whole new can of worms for me.
Can a gay person who has never experienced homophobia rightfully celebrate Pride Month?
Can a black person who was adopted by white parents and has no black cultural influence be proud of being black?
In any case, I understand the sentiment, I’m not saying “I don’t understand why black people want to be recognised and celebrate the victories afforded to them by their ancestors”.
What I don’t understand is the specific vernacular of the word “pride” in these cases. Rosa Parks was a BAMF, but why would I be proud of her? I didn’t put the idea in her head, I didn’t give her the courage to sit at the back of the bus.
Whether I’m black or white has no bearing on whether I should be proud of anything outside of my own influence; I’m convinced identity politics gets us nowhere.
Those gay people wouldn’t have a need to celebrate Pride Month.
Sadly, no gay person on this planet has never experienced homophobia, even in the most LGBTQ+ friendly countries in the world.
Strangely enough, we’re closer to a gay tolerant society than an ethnic tolerant society (not factoring in transfolk).
One of my cousins is a gay teen but has never experienced homophobia first hand, only vicariously through media and online, which is notable.
Whether I’m black or white has no bearing on whether I should be proud of anything outside of my own influence; I’m convinced identity politics gets us nowhere.
When you’re born, you aren’t just dropped out of the clear blue sky onto a level playing field fully defined by the merits of your own actions. Life isn’t a lone survivor video game.
You’re born in context: historically, financially, genetically, and otherwise. Some people take pride in their heritage, their lineage, their culture, their traditions, etc etc etc. Just because it isn’t your cup of tea and you’d rather only celebrate what you consider to be your own accomplishments (and I say it this way on purpose because without your born context there’s no guarantee that your life would’ve turned out as it did) does not mean everyone views the world the same way.
I think more generically you should ask yourself why it bothers you so much when people celebrate aspects of their identity.
I’d largely have no problem with “white pride” festivals if the concept even made any sense at all (which it doesn’t, and which is why it’s basically “white power” with a tiny PR tune up), but these “events” are basically just Klan rallies. Versus look at most pride festivals. They’re full of people dancing and singing and genuinely celebrating things they have in common with one another (or in some cases, like with gay pride and ally ship, things they simply have an affinity for).
I think you may be viewing my thoughts through an uncharitable lens. I am not bothered at all when anyone celebrates any aspect of their identity.
I’m a white Australian; my ancestors committed atrocities, yet, I do not feel shame for their actions, because I wasn’t involved. I can only take shame in how I have acted.
To reiterate, the definition of pride is localised to the individual. It doesn’t make sense to be proud of someone else’s accomplishments if you haven’t helped them.
A parent may feel proud if their child has done well, they have contributed to their success. However, if my college in a different department gets a promotion, I shouldn’t.
Now extend this to people you don’t know, and it makes no sense at all.
To reiterate, the definition of pride is localised to the individual. It doesn’t make sense to be proud of someone else’s accomplishments if you haven’t helped them.
That’s just what you think / feel / opine / believe. Pride has many definitions, and people often take pride in their ancestry which they cannot possibly have helped because they didn’t exist the entire time they lived their life. Humans aren’t fully rational and again, aren’t dropped in greenfield without context on a level playing field. Also, you apparently don’t feel much pride for your heritage, but you still benefit from it. Your achievements and failures are partially possible and/or caused by your birth situation. If, by birth lottery you were born a Palestinian, you might have died in childhood before ever going to school or college.
A parent may feel proud if their child has done well, they have contributed to their success. However, if my college in a different department gets a promotion, I shouldn’t.
Who are you to tell others that their feelings are valid or invalid?
Ultimately, I’d suggest that you take a look inward because I don’t think a lot of your problems with these things stem from a logical place either but also an emotional one. To be human is much more than a fancy calculator, and it’s perfectly fine to feel various feelings without them necessarily being rationally justified. There is only, in my opinion of course, a problem when people start to use emotions to justify violence or other forms of abuse.
But life isn’t generally, and being human isn’t certainly:
I did one good thing = I have earned one smile.
EDIT: Outside and inside and in addition to all of this, I think it’s perfectly fine and even kind of justified to feel proud of others because we are all ultimately only members of one race: the human one. I haven’t marched at LGBTQ+ pride but it wouldn’t bother me to do so if someone genuinely wanted me there for some reason, and I take pride in the positive achievements of lots of other people who I did nothing to help all of the time.
You seem to be assuming a lot about my position, and getting most of it wrong.
My only stance thus far is one of definitions. Yes, I know the definition of “pride” has changed, which I’m trying to illustrate is an issue.
Elon’s “white pride” rhetoric stems from nationalism, which stems from the conventional definition of “pride”, which is:
a feeling of deep pleasure or satisfaction derived from one’s own achievements, the achievements of those with whom one is closely associated, or from qualities or possessions that are widely admired
The pride displayed here is that of perceived inherent superiority, which leads to bigotry.
Rationality and emotion aren’t mutually exclusive. Empathy has flaws, it causes people to become hijacked by emotion. Conversely, compassion is a choice, even psychopaths can be convinced behaving compassionately is in their own self interest.
So, I don’t accept the assertion that feelings are an acceptable metric for evaluating the validity of a claim. I’m convinced it’s wrong to be proud of an identity.
I appreciate your measured arguments here, and they echo my own thoughts over the years. I’ve always struggled to see the upside to celebrating any sort of heritage. I can’t really find fault with any of your assertions, but it’s such a classic “white guy on the Internet” take that it reflexively feels bigoted to a lot of people, I think. It doesn’t make any sense to me when people take pride in their ancestry, but folk can be happy about whatever, I guess, as long as they’re not denigrating others.
Elon’s “white pride” rhetoric stems from nationalism, which stems from the convention definition of “pride”
You’re acting like Elon or a klansman (same picture.gif) sat down and read a dictionary definition and came up with this. He didn’t.
Rationality and emotion aren’t mutually exclusive. Empathy has flaws, it causes people to become hijacked by emotion. Conversely, compassion is a choice, even psychopaths can be convinced behaving compassionately is in their own self interest.
Of course they’re not mutually exclusive, you were pretending they were by saying someone’s “correct” feeling of pride can only be derived from their own achievements.
Rationality is a man made concept. Humans are not purely or perhaps not even mostly rational.
So, I don’t accept the assertion that feelings are an acceptable metric for evaluating the validity of a claim.
What claim are you even talking about? You’re the one tossing out claims left and right, like it’s morally wrong to go to a pride parade unless you’ve personally experienced homophobia… Meanwhile you’re side stepping the very relevant and obvious thing: that someone acting positively due to unearned pride harms absolutely nobody.
You’re getting confused by rhetoric because you’re overly concerned about the dictionary definition of co-opted words. Just because it’s called white pride and gay pride doesn’t mean that the intentions, the events, the attendants, or anything philosophically backing any of it are remotely the same. Straight pride is practically a homophobic hatred event, gay pride is largely a block party with fun and revelry.
you should be a little ashamed that you benefit greatly from their actions. Nobody thinks it’s your personal fault, were just trying to get you to see how you have an unfair leg up over your darker skinned counterparts. Nobody wants you to apologize, you yourself didn’t do anything. We just want you to understand that it’s a little fucked up how your life is easier in general just because you’re white, and we want you to try and figure out why that is
Spare me with the condescension. I don’t feel ashamed for something I have no control of.
Of course I want the same outcome as you, for people who have been historically discriminated against to have the same opportunities as me.
It is fucked up that things are easier because I won the genetic lottery, and was born male, and straight (mostly).
That being said, I have no obligation to make up for the sins of my fathers. However, I do have a moral obligation to fight injustices to the best of my abilities, this would be the case, regardless of the dice roll of life.
it’s impossible to never experience those things when they’re institutionalized. You don’t have to actively feel or even know you’re being supressed when it’s going on behind the scenes.
I get the sentiment, and it’s not a black and white (sorry for the pun) answer I think. And yes, celebrating your culture should be good for everyone.
Unfortunately, some people saying “pride” mean “There are great things in the culture and people where I emigrated from” and some people mean “the culture and people where you emigrated from are trash”. And “white pride” has historically been used by people meaning the latter.
Pointing out that “white pride” COULD also mean the former doesn’t remove the implication it comes with for the latter. If I wanted to express the former, I would pick different words. A person doing otherwise usually either expresses ignorance, callousness to the second implication, or them just trying to get away with saying it meaning the second thing by hiding behind the first.
Just to clarify, I’m not asking about the implication of “white pride”, just the semantics of pride in general.
It reminds me of “Black Lives Matter” - of course they do, but too many people heard “only black lives matter”, when what they’re trying to say is “black lives matter too”.
These twits responded with “All Lives Matter”, which, of course, is also true, but the implication is the discreditation of the suffering of black people.
I think a lot of these issues, unfortunately, are a failure of the Left. There are so many slogans which are either poorly thought out, or intentionally inflammatory. For example, “defund the police”, “all cops are bastards”, “math is racist”.
We can’t expect the Right to read between the lines, it’s up to the Left to use better language so we don’t give them more ammo.
The right will often purposefully misrepresent whatever the left uses as a slogan. So only so much can be done there. As for the use of racial pride, I find that often those who can claim no accomplishments in themselves will often claim pride by association. They could claim pride in race, but really any group. This could be considered a defense mechanism for their own ego as they are not okay accepting their own short comings.
Deliberate misrepresentation can only be employed if one understands the original intent.
If a malicious person wants to try to convince others “Black Lives Matter” means “only black lives matter”, they may have a pretty clear shot (assuming they’re trying to convince someone Right of Centre).
If it was rebranded to “Black Lives Matter Too”, then they would have a harder time trying to be deceitful.
I’m convinced there are more people in the camp of failing to read between the lines.
In either case, language games are important; playing poorly will lead to catastrophic outcomes. The worst part is this is so easy to correct for - a little bit of imagination will illustrate predictable backlash, or lack thereof.
Fair enough. My conservative family is on the side of purposefully misunderstanding, but I can understand that some may just misunderstand and we should mitigate that when we can.
God damn, I don’t envy you.
Having a family which is consciously malicious must make for some very frustrating conversations.
I, on the other hand, have a right-of-centre family who are mostly just too dull to extrapolate, and spend too much time on FB.
At least in my case I can sometimes dispel misconceptions.
Besides my severe trust issues I am fine, life is better now that I have mostly cut them all off.
This is human nature at end of day. If it’s not being white/black, it’s your football team, what country you’re from, or on lemmy crap like whether you use Linux or not.
I never understood it myself but people are morons.
Because in this case it’s talking more about KKK type of “white pride”.
It’s totally okay to be proud of aspects of your heritage. It’s important to also own up to harm done by your ancestors too, especially when you benefit in tangible or intangible ways from that history, which becomes less expected of you the more injustice was done to your ancestors vs done by your ancestors. However… “White” is not a race, white is a skin tone, there is no universal white heritage, even “European immigrant to America” is far from a monolithic heritage. “Black” being considered a heritage confuses some people but that’s because “black” is shorthand for two things that aren’t directly skintone. “Black” refers most commonly to the shared experience and built/rebuilt heritage of the descendents of slaves who’s culture and heritage were stolen from them, brought mostly to the Americas from West Africa, and then systemically oppressed for generations. “Black” can also be used to describe people who share the experience of oppression based on their black skin color regardless of their specific history.
I think white people have the least to be proud of of any other people.
What have we accomplished? We stole land, science, math, technology, the whole concept of civilization, and pretty much anything else you could think of, from non-white people. We stand on the shoulders of colored giants, and act relish the scent of our own shit because of it. Literally a lesson in “history is written by the victor”.
Basically all we really have that’s purely our own is our art, philosophy, and religion. And even a lot of that is stolen and built upon.
Why would a person of any race be proud of their race?
I support Pride Month for example,
why would a person of any gender would be proud of their gender? You seem pretty selective.
Anyone still on Twitter at this point for whatever their reasons, have to recognize what group they are in.
Sadly my local emergency services still uses them to let the community know what’s going on. Denver PD is still doing a good job updating their page and I wish they would move to Mastodon here sooner rather then later
You could suggest to connect their Xitter to a mastodon server so it automaticaly forward posts (crosspost), could be a good thing for a first move!
Yeah, I’ve seen people complain about bots on mastodon but generally I’m all for it. Especially for accounts that you don’t interact with too much but more-so just want updates from.
deleted by creator
Looking at my twitter feed it’s immediately obvious what group I’m in; Gays. Gays everywhere.
It’s not that easy for a lot of users. People created a network on it and they can’t change so easily as theirs jobs depends on these networks.
That is true and is something those in control of these sorts centralized social media services count on. Why Reddit was so cocky about the impact of the protest just blowing over. Sort of did. We the people feed the powerful and cannot stop.
I was thinking about researcher and research. A lot of people working in these fields and people interested in these fields can’t move to somewhere else. They would change but it’s really hard and everyone has to move.
The way things are going they are not going to have much of a choice.
Yep, if you have a Twitter account you’re a Nazi. Full Stop.
“If there’s a Nazi at the table and 10 other people sitting there with him, you got a table with 11 Nazis.”My Mom told me I couldn’t have a second helping of ice cream, she’s LITERALLY Hitler!
Commenters will be seething against Elon Musk while simultaneously using his platform for 4+ hours a day and still pretend they’re good people.
Like buying a Tesla at this point. You’re a Nazi cunt if you do so 🤷
Damn, TIL I became a Nazi when I first visited my grandparents as a child. Thanks for letting me know, at least I can lean into it now. /s
People were unironically comparing this man to Tony Starks lol. 🏃🏾♂️
Phony Stark
Ironman was the bad guy for that whole civil war thing. … oh fuck
Um…hate to say it, but Steve was the bad guy in Civil War, not Tony.
It’s all blatant army propaganda either way, does it matter?
Guys guys guys! No fighting!
Anyway, the real villain was Zemo.
The funny bit is that originals Tony Stark was meant to be utter human scum but Hollywood wanted to make him less of a douchebag.
I mean there was a point where he was someone worth championing…now? He’s scum.
For context, here’s the full tweet Elon is endorsing as all these articles are omiting it for some reason
Jewish communties have been pushing the exact kind of dialectical hatred against whites that they claim to want people to stop using against them.
I’m deeply disinterested in giving the tiniest shit now about western Jewish populations coming to the disturbing realization that those hordes of minorities that support flooding their country don’t exactly like them too much.
I’m curious. In this context, what are “whites”? Are Jewish people not white now or something? Or does “white” mean something else to him?
You would have to measure your head to convince Elon that you’re white enough.
I’m pretty sure by white he means white, non-jewish europeans which also includes white americans since they’re from europe aswell but wether jews are considered white depends on who you ask. I believe that most jews don’t think of themselves as that either, though some do. I’m guessing it has something to do with being an oppressed minority. Then again white supermacists for example don’t consider them white either because they’re not “pure” or something.
I don’t think there’s any conclusive answer to this. In my opinion focusing on skin color is a stupid question to begin with. Asians aren’t generally considered white either though they seem pretty white to me. Friend’s wife is black but her skin is barely darker than mine. Go figure.
I’m Jewish and I put ‘white’ in the race checkbox when I’m asked and I certainly have all of the advantages that go with white privilege, but I’m also aware that there’s a significant segment of other white people who don’t consider me white, and plenty of others who only consider me white when it’s convenient to them. Even when Jews aren’t oppressed in the West, they are an “other.” There are other groups like that too- Basques and Roma come to mind. But they’re far less visible in the U.S.
They mean normal. Non-ethnic. You know how there are aisles in the grocery store for foods from various cultures? Think of the potato chip aisle. Default human, with basic features and simple ideologies. Christian, western, self-determining, literate but not erudite, proud and apathetic, powerful and resigned, and thoroughly egocentric.
That’s how they see the world. It’s a special level of narcissism borne from generational privilege. When they talk about “whites,” that’s what they mean, because they don’t have any sort of self awareness or concern for how they are perceived by others.
Draws a lot of attention to the fact that “white” is a construct that is tied up intimately in supremacy narratives. Irish and Italian people were at times not considered “white” because they were discriminated against as immigrant populations. To the supremacist, whiteness defines an “us” so whether Jewish people are considered “white” is really depends on the level of anti semitic sentiments present.
It’s part of why “White Pride” is a really bad idea. Part of the experience of being white is tied up in the legacy of exclusion based on class or othering and how genocides, murders and exploitation based on the ideas of white supremacy shaped the world through empire and those systems haven’t exactly been dismantled. Until whiteness is basically “fixed” so that this is a factor of the distant past the correct way to interact with one’s own whiteness is more to reflect on the complexities of the history and modern application of it and realize that while being light skinned isn’t something to be ashamed of throwing a party about it is still in poor taste.
Jewish people have never been “white” to antisemites. (Real antisemites, I mean, as opposed to people who have the gall to say Palestinians are human.)
“are Jewish people white” is one of those questions where the answer seems to ebb and flow with the tides.
Jewish people generally receive the same treatment as Anglo-Saxon/Caucasian people from society, as they have similar skin tones, but they are minorities in the sense that Judaism has been famously historically discriminated against.
Huh, my dogs are going crazy. Weird.
Thanks for transcribing the tweet so that others don’t have to give it excessive clicks. This might be his new worst mask off moment.
Unfortunately, a bunch of people will probably act shocked while continuing to use the platform that he owns 80% of rather than move to alternatives.
I appreciate you providing the actual tweet… but I have no idea how to translate it. The double/triple negative really throws me for a loop and I don’t even know how to read this. I assume there’s more that has Elon talking white pride somewhere else? Am I blind or naive in not seeing the problem in the post?
Edit: Oh, I see, the post BEFORE that one was saying asking people to “just come out and say ‘Hilter was right’” if that’s what they believed and this was a response by someone. Ouch.
Jewish communties have been pushing the exact kind of dialectical hatred against whites
Translation: Jews are woke anti-white “cultural Marxists” pushing “reverse racism”.
that they claim to want people to stop using against them.
Translation: antisemitism and woke stuff are literally the same
I’m deeply disinterested in giving the tiniest shit now about western Jewish populations coming to the disturbing realization that those hordes of minorities that support flooding their country don’t exactly like them too much.
Translation: I don’t care about Jews recognizing antisemitism in minority populations.
I honestly have no clue which minorities he’s talking about here, or if it’s just some generic conflation of all non white groups.
Elon is slowly but surely tearing down everything he has created.
Elon is slowly but surely tearing down everything he has
createdBought.
Always a good distinction. Ever see presentations from the actual founders of Tesla? They are impressive.
What has he created? He bought himself into Twitter and Tesla… and the work is essentially done entirely by other people. i.e his employees
Yep. And his pet projects that he personally drives always crash and burn. He’s the one that pushed the autopilot feature hard despite his engineers publicly objecting.
what has he created
One of the best PR campaigns in modern history. Just five years ago people on both sides of the political spectrum were seeing this guy as one of the smartest humans alive, who would actually put man on another planet.
Then he got rid of the PR team and started doing his own PR, and it went as well as it always does when Elon has direct control.
That last part can and probably will happen despite his public perception
Elon is slowly but surely tearing down everything he has
createdbought.Fixed that for you
Every single accomplishment he has involves buying a company that was already doing it, establishing himself as a “founder”, and then taking all the credit.
He could have gotten away with it too. I never drank the Kool aid with that guy. I know the charismatic sales tech evangelical type too well. I deal with them daily at work. When they stay in their lane they are fine, they bring in the business.
He’s tearing down everything that other people created, you mean?
I was about to buy a white Tesla but now I’m not so sure about the Tesla at all, but especially that combination.
All he had to do was shut up. He could’ve thought all this stuff, maybe done some of it, and still been hailed as a hero. But the more he opens his mouth, the harder he makes it for anyone to overlook who he really is.
The lack of self-reflection going on here is so painful to watch.
Or he’s unlocking the only way to sell EVs to American conservatives.
Except that so far he hasn’t faced any real repercussions. He keeps selling cars and internet and getting contracts from NASA. A bunch of banks may have to write off their twitter investments but, much like trump for several decades, it will not significantly impact his ability to get new credit.
deleted by creator
The guy that still has no idea why his kids hate him, at it again.
Am I out of touch?
Why were they even adversing on Ten?
You mean 10-Chan?
…do you mean xitter?..
Tell me you’re South African without you know.
I’m honestly not going to do business with anyone who still maintains a presence on that platform much less advertise on it. Cheers to IBM for stepping up.
I find an odd sort of satisfying humour that we know exactly where IBM draws the line, and it’s right there.
It hasn’t always been exactly there though…
All the more reason to have a hard line there now, I suppose.
Yep, now look up the dark past of basically any large corporation that existed at that time… wild stuff.
it makes me wonder why, when we see WWII movies or documentaries, why they are doing everything analog? Typewriters, handwritten letters, when we know they had IBM computers, which were sold to the Nazis including during the war, in direct contravention of sanctions. Could it be they want to hide that unsavory bit of history
Early computers were weighty, unreliable, and insecure. We’ve come a long way with network management, parity checking, digital encryption, smaller machines, and input devices that don’t require punch cards. Even if we thought they could have adopted widespread use of computers in the 1940s, it would be a long time until people adapted to the sudden change.
You couldn’t even purchase a modem until 1958. ARPANET was the first wide area network actually put to use in 1970 connecting computers on opposite coasts of the United States after four years of development, and it largely wasn’t improved upon until ARCNET in 1986.
The Nazis literally used custom made IBM punch cards to keep records of their undesirables. I know society at large was mostly unaware of computers, but did they did play a role in WWII. We see cipher devices like Enigma in historical documentaries and fiction, but we don’t see the computers that calculated bomb and rocket trajectories, and least of all the Nazi’s database which seems quite well buried in footnotes, though it was critical in the holocaust.
I still stand by the answer to your likely rhetorical question is that it wasn’t really hidden that much it simply was utilized so little that the exact sites and personnel that used computers of the time are incredibly few in number, so while easy to document and possibly quite impactful: it also wasn’t a very big part of the era as a whole.
I find some dark amusement in knowing there is a wiki page called “IBM and the holocaust” haha. Not gonna read it though
Tldr the arm tattoo #s were the ID in the IBM asset tracking database for the efficiently run coal mines.
Doesn’t have to be a line, might just be the last straw
Twitter/X is going to end up selling boner pills and conspiracy theories. Way to burn through 44 billion dollars, Elmo.
He dismantled a liberal and progressive worldwide platform, that was 44 billion well spent to him and his financial backers. Everything else is just his personal fun, kinda like how you drive a scrap car through the fields one last time to see how long it runs without oil.
I’m not seeing where the “return on investment” comes in. I just see a lot of wasted money.
The return in investment is the rise of fascism. Capitalists are scared of the people and are trying to control the narrative now.
If we take from the list of investors e.g. the Saudis - one revolution like the Arab Spring not happening is worth alone the entire 44 billion, but of course their share was smaller than that,
