Thank you Nome @NomedaBarbarian
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@NomedaBarbarian on Twitter:
Thinking about how I’ve been lied to as an #ADHD person about what habits are.
That apparently is not what neurotypical folks get to experience.
Habits are things that they do without thinking.
They don’t have to decide to do them. They don’t have to remember to do them. Things just happen, automatically, because they’ve done them enough for that system to engage and make them automatic.
That system…which I lack.
Every single time I have brushed my teeth, it’s been an active choice. I’ve had to devote thought and attention to it. It’s not a routine, it’s not a habit, it’s something that I know is good to do, and hopefully I can remember to do it.
Every single time I exercise, or floss, or pay my rent, or drink water, or say “bless you” when someone sneezes,
It’s because I’ve had to actively and consciously engage the protocol.
It never gets easier.
Just more familiar.
It’s part of my struggle with my weight–exercise never becomes a habit, and every single time I do it, it is exactly as hard as the first time. It takes exactly as much willpower & thought.
I got lied to about how it would just “turn into a habit”. And blamed, when it didn’t.
Drinking water isn’t a habit. Feeding myself isn’t a habit. Bathing isn’t a habit.
I spend so much more energy, so much more time, so much more labor on just managing to maintain my fucking meat suit.
And now you want me to ALSO do taxes?
ON TIME?
Uh… No. This suggests that NTs act like drones, without any thought. Like they’re sitting on the sofa, then they just get up, wander to the bathroom, brush their teeth, then get into bed and think “wow how did I get here hahaha what a habit, eh?”
ADHD is many things but it ain’t this.
I think there’s this myth of “the neurotypical”… It’s a generic point on a scale that represents the most significant overlap, not any specific person. I genuinely believe no one is “neurotypical”, rather some tend towards it and others further away. That’s the spectrum. Plus some people might be closer to NT with some things but much further away with others.
For example, I have a pretty good degree of focus, I remember things pretty well, but I struggle to organise my thoughts and can’t bear to touch other people or certain textures. I’m sure everyone is a bit like this. Some people more so, some people less.
And that isn’t to minimise that there are people out there who really struggle to fit into the “best fit” of Neurotypical-aimed social design.
So why the need to create a mythical group of “Neurotypical”? Is it a need to define ourselves in opposition? Is it to make ourselves feel more unique? Is it a perverse form of gatekeeping?
The upshot is, that until we move towards realising that individuals have individual needs and requirements we aren’t going to make substantial progress and describing (and prescribing) otherness only seeks to alienate folk that might otherwise help.
People aren’t neurotypical… Systems are. I think that’s what I meant to say.
ACTIVATE DENTAL PROTOCOL
ERROR: BED MODE ALREADY ACTIVE. UNABLE TO ACTIVATE DENTAL PROTOCOL.
ND is the new introverted.
Only introverts think deeply, get anxious, or enjoy academic pursuits. Do you have a counterexample? Oh, well that person just doesn’t know they’re an introvert, so the pattern still holds!
Same with ND/NT. Nobody is neurotypical according to this definition because everyone has something they struggle with or are quirky about.
Damn as a neurotypical person reading this it blows my mind. Yes, my habits are absolutely automatic, to the point I daydream through them. Am I just misunderstanding something or are you saying every adhd person struggles to form habits?
Jesus, that’s insane. Either I have 0 habits, or OP is right. Everything I do, I do “manually” , and have to put effort and thought into it.
Thanks for speaking to the other side, because that’s so hard to believe. I don’t know about everyone with ADHD, but it definitely seems to be a common shared experience. The only habits I do completely without thinking are a) putting my seatbelt on in the car, and b) picking my phone up like 100 times a day. Anything bigger, even something like eating, is something I have to will myself to do.
And when I’m trying to form a “habit,” like certain types of note taking or task planning at work, no matter how effective it is and how much I like it, I never manage to do it more than about 3 weeks before my brain just completely shuts off that pathway and it’s like I forget that process exists altogether.
If I don’t put my meds on my nightstand AND have a reminder on my phone, I will forget them most of the time. Daily activity, takes almost no brain power, and it still doesn’t trigger in my head as something I need to do unless I physically see it.
ugh, I constantly forget to eat. People would ask “how the hell can you FORGET to eat, for two days” and I’d be like. “three days… I think”.
LOL, relatable. I also had to literally train myself over years to feel hungry, and all that training goes away when I’m really stressed. Living with a partner is the best thing for my eating habits. He needs to eat, so I eat… at least once a day.
The range of ADHD is wild, I’m just always hungry, I have to consciously stop myself from randomly eating any food in my proximity. If there’s a box of crackers, or leftovers in the fridge, I’ll eat them, even if I ate an hour ago, if I don’t make a conscious effort to remind myself that I ate a meal already. Adderall has helped with me being aware of when I’m not actually hungry, but when the drugs wear off in the evening, I have to be careful about cruising the kitchen/pantry.
A few days late, but I just stumbled across the community. I know that when I was on meds I wouldn’t eat for days. Without meds, I’m just Homer Simpson saying “ooh a piece of candy” all day
Dude. Three days isn’t even my record, and I don’t feel hungry during that time, like at all. Or if I do it’s this vaguely distant feeling that isn’t nearly as important as whatever I’m hyper focusing on at the moment.
How did you train yourself to feel hungry? I need to take medicine to feel hungry and I want to take control of it
Sorry for the long message ahead :)
This is a TL;DR list I wrote to help when my cousin was struggling to eat and having stomach aches whenever he did eat:
- By medical definition, “anorexia” just means low/no appetite. Anorexia nervosa is the intentional eating disorder.
- Anorexia can cause stomach pains, especially following a meal. Fix this by eating frequent small meals or snacks.
- Cut your diet down to bland food and introduce different things in slowly or document your food intake to figure out if there are any allergies/intolerances causing you to not feel well.
- Make food a routine using external motivation to eat, such as alarms, calendar invites, or planning meals with coworkers/friends.
- Suggested rule of threes: 3 meals, 3 snacks, at least 3 hours apart. Set a timer!
- Find easy meals you can always eat. Whether it’s takeout or just something super easy to make, have a staple you can always fall back on when you don’t want to think about food. A rice cooker with a steamer basket was a game changer for me, and lately it’s been Trader Joe’s frozen foods.
Learning #1 was what made me realize my relationship with food was unhealthy and needed to change. #2-3 might not apply to your situation but I’m leaving them in case anyone else needs it.
#4 and 6 really are the answer to your question. When I got my first job out of college, I ate lunch daily with coworkers even if I had no desire to eat, which greatly helped the last thing I’ll share: I redefined what I thought of as hunger.
I realized even when I didn’t consciously feel the need to eat, my body had symptoms. I paid attention to things like lightheadedness, a tightness in my stomach, and shakiness, and started considering those to be “feeling hungry.” After forcing myself to eat more consistently and listening to my body, I actually started to feel hungry on a regular (daily-ish) basis.
Oh, and for a year or two I lifted weights 3x/week and that made me hungrier than I’d ever been in my life. The first three months I always felt hungry. But that’s a bigger commitment than the other suggestions :)
I hope this might help you!
I already do all of those things except the weightlifting, and I think burning more kilojoules would be counterproductive to my goals given I want to do the opposite. Making it easy to eat doesn’t cause me to feel a subjective sensation of hunger, and I don’t get those other signs of hunger you describe like lightheadedness or shakiness either. I get a tightness in my stomach, which my nervous system interprets as fullness and turns into a “no more eating” signal.
I’m asking how to feel hungry.
My mom. Super skinny her whole life. People thought she took care of herself, but I knew that she forgot to eat for days.
I used to think that would be nice. I have the other end of it where I am constantly nibbling for dopamine hits.
Yeah. I’m super skinny. I have trouble keeping weight on. I’m 6’1, male, and like 144 lbs. It’s not good for ya.
This happens to me all the time. People will ask about the last time I ate, and I’ll tell them “Uhh… I think I had a granola bar for breakfast… two days ago.” Today I ate two full(ish) meals. The last time I remember eating that much is almost three weeks ago. It’s gotten to the point where people think I’m intentionally starving myself, but I just genuinely don’t get hungry. I have no urge to eat, so I constantly forget.
My girlfriend takes me out to dinner twice a week. Most of my calories come from those two weekly nights out. Add in my time blindness and I’ll think that I ate breakfast in the morning, but then realize that it was the previous morning and that I just never noticed the passage of time.
Yeah, for thing like the seatbelt, it’s just part of the process of getting in the car, right?
Whereas with the phone, it’s the dopamine chase that our brains don’t have the right machinery to override reliably.
Oh shit the seatbelts are a great example, I’d maybe add that typing on a keyboard is another thing that feels habitual. Everywhere else the 3 month rule applies pretty well in terms of maybe picking them up and randomly immediately dropping.
Can a neurotypical chime in and say whether seatbelts and typing are habits to them like brushing teeth?
Neurotypical here. I don’t call it habits, I prefer autopilot. My autopilot is so strong that I’ve made dinner/cleaned house while on the phone without even realizing I did it. Like seriously get off the phone and look around and wondered when did I do that? I also have driven to work instead of shopping because I am so used to only leaving the house for work. You can set a clock by my daily routine down to the minute.
Sometimes I finish showering, and I was so heavily on autopilot while thinking about other things that I have no memory of if I actually washed my body or not, I just trust that I did
I have ADHD and sometimes when I get out of the shower I’m like, “wait: did I wash my hair?” Then I reach up to feel it and sure enough, it feels greasy; I forgot.
I can physically feel when my body isn’t clean so that’s easy (water rolls off me like a duck, LOL!). Hair is different 🤷
I never manage to do it more than about 3 weeks before my brain just completely shuts off that pathway and it’s like I forget that process exists altogether.
This is me. How can you just “forget” something you’ve developed into a routine and done daily for a month? I do though. Shit.
The more I hear about ADHD, the more I wonder if I have it. Is there something I should be doing?
If not experiencing those things would dramatically make your life better, might go see a psychiatrist about evaluation?
Doesn’t bother me, but my SO is of an other opinion
I am not every ADHD person, but this could have been written by me. I had NO IDEA that you could have something be so ingrained that you don’t think about it. Even if I develop a “routine” of doing something, it is NEVER automatic. I have to put mental effort, even if small, into every task or it won’t get done.
After reading this my definition of habit would be better termed routine. I develop a routine and I try to stick to it. Also I could have a great routine and it lasts for a month or so and then it’s just, I don’t know what else to call it but ‘gone’. It’s gone. That routine is gone.
It’s very common among autistic people and neurodivergent people in general, it’s called executive dysfunction. Essentially your brain has trouble both making and initiating plans. Every time I brush my teeth I have to remember to do it (this is not automatic, all my toothbrush stuff is set up as a visual cue any time I’m near the sink), focus on my task as I go to the bathroom so I don’t forget why I went there, remember to take my medicine first so that I don’t have to swallow them after brushing my teeth, floss, and brush.
The last two parts sound very simple (and they are, which is why this is so frustrating for many people), but sometimes I will stand in front of the bathroom sink for 5 or 10 minutes, knowing I need to brush my teeth, WANTING to brush my teeth, but it’s like whatever ‘go juice’ neurotypical people have a limitless supply of is just limited for me. Finally after standing there and psyching myself up I can do it, but it does take legitimate effort to initiate the process even if I follow through on all the parts smoothly. I couldn’t tell you exactly why this happens even though I can obviously recognize that it is happening, I kind of suspect it has to do with wonky sensory integration problems (common in ADHD and autistic people).
It’s like sleep paralysis in a way - you are aware you need to do something (move / brush teeth), you want to do something or something bad’ll happen (panic / dirty teeth), you keep telling yourself to do it in your head (can’t breathe / disappoint everyone), but you just can’t make your body move.
I hate that feeling of knowing I need to do something and wanting to start, but actually doing it is like my body and mind are weighed down by concrete.
I realized when I was 20 that I can’t form habits. I’ve tried my whole life, but everything I do is an active choice, which makes it difficult to do anything at all long term. Things get boring and repetitive and after a while they aren’t interesting enough for me to get my executive functioning to do them anymore. Most things that I do daily, like brush my teeth, are actually things I do out of fear of the consequences of not doing them.
When I worked as a CS rep and had to log into my phone every time I sat down, it was a conscious effort that required active management, every day, for four years. When I get up in the morning to take care of and feed my pets, it’s an active checklist, and while I have a routine of sorts, different parts get missed often, like turning on my coffee machine, opening windows to cool the house, or even turning lights on. I’ve been on a mission to automate as much as possible in my home because things like my fish die otherwise.
The only time I’ve ever experienced auto-pilot has been while driving. And frankly, that scares the hell out of me because I lose time when that happens and have no idea if I did anything dangerous (I’m reasonably sure not because it’s happened often with others in the car, but the feeling is still there).
I was blown away when I first saw this meme. I had no idea habits were supposed to LITERALLY become automatic. When people would tell me “Do something every day until it becomes a habit” I thought they meant “Do something until you stop forgetting to do it” Not “do something until your body just takes over and autopilots through it and you never have to think about it again”. Now I really understand why productivity advice is so useless. They’re all designed to “hack a habit loop” and I have no habit loop.
It actually kinda pissed me off when I learned what it’s like for neurotypical people. I felt like I’ve been unfairly misled and then judged for being misled.
I can daydream through some actions, but it’s rare, and I fuck up whatever I’m doing. This is because I’m splitting my attention and not actually following a habit.
Starting any activity, including brushing my teeth, is always a conscious choice. I cannot “sleepwalk” into the bathroom to start my day.
A story here. I was in a relationship years ago, every morning this person would wake up and slap the button on their alarm. If they woke up before the alarm, or if the alarm failed, they would still reach over and slap the button. It was a habit.
I cannot develop habits like that. But I’m also not tripped up by habits. There’s no “walk down the hall and automatically turn left”.
The only upside to my particular situation is that I’ve never been hyperactive. Attention deficit, but no hyperactivity. It allows me to have at least some discipline in my day. But that has to be planned out and actively adhered to. It’s a constant struggle, but not as bad as some people I’ve known over the years.
Wow. I honestly thought I was just lazy. Thank you for sharing. Everything other than sleep requires energy and effort. I wish I knew before I was in my 40s that I had ADHD!
Trust me, our minds are equally blown by how your brain works. Like, what ? It’s automatic ? How does that even work? For me, automatic is things like clenching my teeth or flinching at a certain type of sound, but I wouldn’t call that a habit. For me, a habit is something I can’t stop the impulse for, like smoking. All daily practical functions are intentional or not at all. Even “routines” are just forcing yourself through the checklist, it’s never automatic. You’re like fucking robots I swear.
That gave me a good laugh. I guess I never thought of myself as fortunate in that way, fascinating. But hold on, I have another question now. What about playing musical instruments like learning guitar? Wouldn’t that constitute a habit that becomes automatic after enough practice?
I see where you’re going with this. But no. My partner is a musician. It’s a habit for him. He needs it. He plays religiously. Me though ? One day I might decide I absolutely have to learn the guitar right now, then I’d force myself through enough practice to be passable, then put the guitar down and never touch it again. Or even more likely, I’d rush out, spend $5k on gear, bring it home, set it up and by then I’ll have lost interest completely, so I’d tell myself I’ll actually play tomorrow. And then never touch that stuff again. I tell people I’m an oversharer (also an adhd thing) because there’s no room for skeletons in my closet. It’s already full of all my forgotten hobbies.
Sorry, I’m confused. There’s no question that there are musicians with ADHD, right? So how did those musicians manage to practice and automate their playing if habit-forming is such an uphill battle?
They choose to practice, again and again and again and again and again. And every time, it’s the same amount of effort as picking up an instrument for the first time.
Very few things are true for every person with a given neurodivergence. But this is one of the more (most?) common things that people with ADHD struggle with, some to a lesser, some to a greater extent.
As a neurotypical what I don’t understand is, how did the OP get fat in the first place, if they lack habitual behaviour?
They seem to be saying that every single time they ate junk food /fatty food, it would have been a conscious choice that they had to think about first.
Or am I misunderstanding it?
do you drive a car? ride a bike? walk? those are habits.
Reminder that this, like many things associated with ADHD, is normal for neurotypical people, too.
It tends to be more common or more pervasive for people with ADHD, but it isn’t exclusive to people with ADHD.
General tip: Whenever you see someone claim that a certain way of thinking is exclusive to people with ADHD, they’re most likely wrong.
I think the rubric is basically whether or not the behavior is disruptive to your life. Many neurotypical people do those things from time to time, but if it becomes overwhelming and pervasive, and keeps you from functioning effectively, it’s time for an evaluation.
I’m sorry… What?
For neurotypicals… Habits are automated processes? Brains have that function built in?
On some days, it feels like I have to breathe and blink manually.
No, neurotypicals don’t just automatically go exercise. Its a choice they make.
Yep, and not just that either. It’s like that all the time. Ha it’s are just things you do without thinking, like reaching for your phone or wanting a smoke/drink/snack.
Now, choosing to set aside a time of day and a routine for something, like exercise, can help ease the barrier to starting that thing. This is sometimes described as a habit, though it is not, psychologically speaking, a habit.
You always are mentally and actively doing something otherwise you’d be unconscious. Habits just means the mental resistance becomes a lot lower. If you struggle to brush your teeth, it’s a lot of effort to initially get you to go the bathroom. When it’s a habit, there’s usually a trigger that gets you to go to the bathroom without having to expend all that energy as much. Unconscious habits are automatic which are different.
Yeah this. I don’t automatically do things without thinking.
I like to make a cup of coffee each morning. It’s a habit. I don’t really spend time thinking about whether I’m going to do it first thing each morning because it’s so deeply ingrained - of course I will want to do that tomorrow when I wake up. I’ve performed this ritual so many times that I do know all the steps (although I do occasionally fuck it up).
However, I’m not going through this process like an automaton free of thought - somewhere between the bed and the kitchen there’s still a decision that I’m going to make a coffee. Some mornings I pee before coffee, some mornings it’s after - there are decisions being made.
Neurotypical here, as far as I know.
No, there is nothing about brushing my teeth that’s automatic. At some point during the evening I usually notice fuzzy-feeling teeth, or as I’m nodding off while reading my book will think “oh no, I never brushed my teeth…” There is always some small element of discipline to getting up and doing the thing. But I can usually remember without having to set an alarm or post a sticky note, if that meets your definition of “habit”.
Exercise is brutal and IMO, that never gets easier, either. In contrast, I generally have an easier time with mental discipline & focus compared to physical tasks.
Strangely enough, as a (mostly) white Millennial woman, the majority of my peers now claim to have adult-onset/adult-diagnosed ADHD. Maybe this is an accurate diagnosis for some. And even if it’s an exaggeration in other cases, who cares, as long as the coping strategies or medication is improving someone’s quality of life.
What’s sad to me, though, is when the diagnosis becomes an all-consuming identity and an excuse to stop trying altogether, a way to shut out the rest of the world. These women I know who excelled in school and work or had creative hobbies and traveled the world, now they just post mental health memes all day and joke about how it’s impossible to get out of bed. And if anyone suggests maybe they TRY getting out of bed and see how it feels to participate in X, Y, Z activity like we used to, then come the accusations that we’re clueless NTs who will never understand what it’s like to struggle.
And that’s just not true. NTs also work hard and struggle at times…that’s life. So let’s just make sure all these diagnoses are helping and working FOR us rather than AGAINST us. And sometimes forgetting to brush your teeth is just … forgetting to brush your teeth.
The habit is the part that says oh I should brush my teeth.
But it’s also the part that says, nah, I should just keep playing on my phone.
They’re both habits. The one you engage in more is the one that will probably end up happening without some effort and self discipline.
Making new habits when you have strong habits encouraging you to follow old routines is never easy and takes practice to get right, neurotypical or not.
It seems that this aligns best to my experience. Habits encourage you to do something and it kind of becomes easier - but not automatic. Definitely never automatic. E.g. with teeth brushing - I will not automatically brush if I am not at home. It may also be difficult if I accidentally fall asleep on the couch…
Yeah, the word for automatic behavior is compulsion/addiction. It’s a step beyond a habit. Nearly as hard to change (without help) as breathing.
Yes, that’s how habits work. They are mostly automatic.
No, that’s not how brushing your teeth, flossing, taking the time to exercise or drinking water works as those are not habits at all.
PS: Drinking water might be the exception. You might be able to create a habit out of it… by taking the concious choice to always make some water readily available…
I have entirely forgotten glasses of water and plates of food for 6+ hours at a time that are directly next to me. The struggle is real.
That just means you are oblivious.
As far as I know, I’m neurotypical and stuff is still the same for me as OP. I don’t think it’s a neurotypical or not thing, I just think different people form habits differently.
Executive dysfunction is a symptom of lots of issues, you might well be neurodivergent to some degree. For me it’s Executive dysfunction. Time blindness. and a degree of face blindness. All of these things are super disruptive to my life.
As someone who thinks he has ADHD and not Bipolar is now confused after reading this. I feel like I have habits but I’m like half way in half way out on this. Feel like I’m straddling the fence.
Oh. Manic Depressive? ADHD make sense sometimes? Of fucking course. I’m smart, compassionate, wise, and PERFECT.
Half the time.
Then I realize how much of a peice of shit I was when I KNEW I was like that.
Not dismissing OPs issues, but you feel like you relate because SOMETIMES you do.
I fucking hate my brain.
I most recently got diagnosed. Had no idea I went into mania until the doc said so. I’m no Kanye west but I have my moments.
I think both the duration and intensity are important. I’ve seen ADHDers online describing their brief spurts of focus and productivity as the “Hour of Power”
Which is a bit of a misnomer. I know we’re all time blind and it feels like fifteen minutes, but that spurt can occasionally go four or five hours.
Alternately, we can have a few slightly productive weeks where everything is easier. I’m undiagnosed, pretty sure I’m ADHD, but I do occasionally have two-week productive cycles. Getting up early, completing tasks, maintaining a routine involving eating, exercising, and showering.
And then when it all comes crashing down, I never do any of those things on time again (or at least until years later, when stress put me in another two-week cycle).
Manic episodes, on the other hand, regularly last over a week at full intensity. From what I hear, the person feels like a god while the episode is going on. They make plans that are downright hubristic, because literally nothing feels insurmountable to them.
Can an ADHD person have two weeks of suddenly being able to maintain routines? Yeah. Sure. Two hours of nothing seeming impossible? Absolutely. But unless the two are combined, it’s not a manic episode.
Are these traits of aspergers, too? Asking for … reasons.
Autism, BPD, and ADHD all have overlapping symptoms. These traits, executive dysfunction, are definitely common between autism and ADHD.
