Even with the new 100% tariff on electric vehicles imported from China, BYD would still have the cheapest EV in the US. According to a new report, BYD’s lowest-priced EV would still undercut all US automakers at under $25,000.
After discontinuing the production of vehicles powered entirely by internal combustion engines in March 2022, BYD has been at the forefront of the industry’s shift to EVs.
Honestly in my opinion it is time to remove all tariffs on EVs under 25k and let anyone who wants to fill that slot in. American car manufacturers refuse to fill the market need.
Honestly in my opinion it is time to remove all tariffs on EVs under 25k and let anyone who wants to fill that slot in.
One essential thing bears repeating: it’s not the manufacturer that bears the cost of tariffs, it’s the customers. Or said another way, if BYD cars double in price in the US, it’s American customers who will pay the difference.
A certain presidential candidate loves to beat that drum but consistently fails to mention that the immediate effect of new tariffs is making Americans poorer.
There are some situations where imports being cheaper is due to foreign government subsidies undercutting local production and tarrifs are the wat to level the field. Frequently this gets warped into protectionism, allowing local production to have a leg up while continuing their crappy business practices, like most US auto manufacturers.
In this case the 100% tariffs is mostly the latter. It was not a thought out rate based on any kind of logic, just an emotional overreaction.
We do not need someone in office proposing reactionary, emotionally based tax policies.
foreign government subsidies undercutting local production and tarrifs are the wat to level the field.
Also, lack of labor, safety, and environmental regulations. Chinese companies literally own slaves, no worker can’t compete with free. Combine that with safety and environmental, you get cheap manufacturing.
Dont forget spyware as well! Lots of that built in.
That exists in USA’s supply chain too.
Prisoners are the most glaring omission from the Constitution’s abolition of slavery.
Undocumented immigrants are exploited even harder than other working class people living in America, and that’s the real reason that neither party will do more than give lip-service to securing the border, or even talk about going after employers who hire undocumented workers.
Do you think that prison labor and undocumented workers are a significant portion of the labor used to produce EVs in the USA?
Prisoners may find it difficult to make the commute and show up on time for a factory shift.
But actually yes, their labor contribution is a significant component in the supply chain.
For example, if an undocumented worker labors to produce food, that frees up another person’s labor for working in a factory.
Some of the things used in the automotive industry that are made by prisoners:
-wiring harnesses
-interior components like seat covers, upholstery, and floor mats
-lighting components like headlights and interior lights
-repair and refurbishment of government fleet vehicles; brakes, body work, painting, mechanical repairs, etc…, which also frees up the labor of skilled mechanics to work on returning broken EVs to the roadOther goods and services produced by prisoners that indirectly assist the production of EV’s include:
-circuit boards, mostly for government use, but lower demand for civilian circuit board manufacturing capacity lowers the prices of EV components
-office furniture
-eye-wear, including prescription lenses and safety glasses that might be worn in the EV factories
-metalworking, including making toolboxes, lockers and shelves that may be found in EV factories
-government warehouse & distribution jobs free up civilian labor that can go into EV supply chain logisticsSo directly, absolutely not.
Indirectly, probably.
??? China has literally been subsidizing BYD to help it to beat out foreign manufactures and to make it competitive in foreign markets. So yeah, there may be some protectionism involved, but there is definitely an argument that China is unfairly subsidizing BYD, making it impossible for rival companies to compete.
https://electrek.co/2024/04/12/china-gave-byd-an-incredible-3-7-billion-to-win-the-ev-race/
And we’ve been subsidizing ours too. We just do it differently than straight up handing them money. (Although we’ve done that before too)
The main issue is that China seems to subsidize BYD quite a bit more than other countries do. In addition, this seems to match China’s general policy of finding ways to give its own companies advantages in foreign markets, while limiting the equivalent from other countries
Yes, yes, yes.
But why does the West, which has been technologically ahead the entire time, can’t produce a cheap simple EV?
Like sure, China is propping up their shit maybe more than the West is, but why can’t we get one small inexpensive simple car?
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the reason we don’t do it is
pretty much purely ideologicalmoney wouldn’t go to the executives pockets immediatelyMost of the subsidies that article was talking about are actually domestic buyers subsidies.
But wouldn’t that be communism?! We wouldn’t want that! 😱
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I mean the tech is still new as well as the point that SSJMarx mentioned. To add to the list of reasons to make expensive version of cars first:
- New tech is more expensive usually
- Not everyone has the budget to openly spend 20K plus on a new vehicle, which means lower demand
- Since not everyone will just buy a new car, companies need to make as much money per unit sold which means luxury cars make more sense
- additionally lowering demand is the fact that not everyone wants an EV or feels comfortable driving them (due to its different fueling method)
I do expect that over time manufactures will begin to release cheaper EVs over time that are aimed for average consumers.
I’m sorry, but that makes 0 sense.
Not everyone can spend 20k, so let’s make 100k cars?
And when China is selling such cheap cars, let’s stop them too, because there is no demand?
There is nothing logical about your arguments.
Pretty sure other incentives have been implemented for other car companies like tax rebates. Let’s not forget the fossil fuel industry being subsidized still…
You’re correct, but what I was, not clearly, talking about is increasing the incentives so its easier for people to purchase electric vehicles. You do bring up a good point that fossil fuel subsidies should also be reduced to better reflect its true costs.
During global boiling crisis we should completely reverse and start taxing fossil fuel
The complicated thing about that is it will harm your average worker until cheap alternatives are available.
?? Then why tarriff EVs?
Those incentives don’t just apply to US companies only which is what China is doing with their state-owned companies.
Yes, that is a reason for having tariffs to offset the government subsidy. But “100% tariffs” instead of one set based on the actual impact of the government subsidies is an emotional overreaction.
What would be the alternative? China is no releasing numbers to how much they subsidize BYD, I doubt BYD would want to be that transparent either.
From my point of view the US could either wait, try to study and figure out the puzzle for how much China subsidizes BYD in order to come up with a good tariff amount, all while China still accomplishes its goals, or they can put tariffs now and make adjustments later. For all we know, 100% tariff may be too low, we don’t know for certain.
Let me know if there’s a better plan that’s being talked about.
The 100% tariff was Trump spouting the first thing that came to his lips during the debate. It was stupid and as you pointed out, it might not be high enough depending on subsidies received by BVD. Or it could be way too high, because of the reduced costs to manufacture like most things we buy from China.
A better plan is for knowledgeable experts to evaluate the situation and set tariffs, which is the normal process.
Or the other option, subsidize American EVs. They’ve been trying to do that, but pretty half assed, to the point where only Tesla and a few Chevys qualify.
My understanding is that the subsidize are to also encourage american manufacturing which those companies you listed satisfy. These subsidies are incentives for manufacturers rather than buyers, as it encourages these companies to change their manufacturing process which would lead to reduced costs.
Yeah, tax incentives and consumer rebates won’t encourage investment in American EV manufacturing capacity because they could disappear overnight and the extra capacity would then be wasted.
Free money to build new factories will do it though, and that’s what Uncle Sam has been spending on - its less risky to tool up a factory for mass production of a low margin family sedan when somebody else is paying for the tools and you won’t lose money if your new model sedan doesn’t sell enough units to cover the one time factory startup costs.
allowing local production to have a leg up while continuing their crappy business practices, like most US auto manufacturers.
What US manufacturers? There is only GM, Ford, and Tesla left. People are so ignorant of the market here while simultaneously telling us all “how it is” with their strong, uninformed opinions.
The point of tariffs like that is to allow us made vehicles be the option of choice to buy.
The $25,000 ev means it’s a cheaply made car at what would have been an awesome price at $12,500, but not so great at $25,000.
American manufacturers could/would never be able to compete against a $12,500 ev sedan. So the tarriff keeps American evs bloated prices from looking too unreasonable. They can still compete against a $12,500 car being sold for $25,000
The higher price point caused by passing on the tariffs to consumers hurts the manufacturer through reduced sales.
Tariffs do hurt companies by driving potential sales elsewhere.
Or they would, if the product wasn’t still the cheapest available by 10-30% after the tariffs.
it’s not the manufacturer that bears the cost of tarriffs, it’s the customers.
And the locals that lose their means of providing for themselves.
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Are you really just completely ignorant of the purpose of tariffs?
Re-read what I wrote:
the immediate effect of new tarriffs is making Americans poorer.
Do tariffs work? Maybe. You also have to remember that China will retaliate and impose tariffs on US good, so overall the effects of tariffs are rarely a net benefit for anyone - which is why they’re rarely a good idea.
But the fact remains that the day after tariffs are applied, Americans lose access to cheaper goods. That’s just a dry fact.
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okay so…tomorrow is just not important?
Again, reread what I wrote: I made no comment on the long term efficacy of tariffs. All I said was that when a presidential candidate says “we’ll make China pay”, it’s factually incorrect.
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Give me an affordable glorified golf cart so I can zip around town and run errands and then plug it in at home and do it all again in 12 hours.
Fuck yeah! But I don’t want to pay $12000 for that.
Fiat Microlino
edit: not that affordable actually for what you get.
Citroen Ami
I just heard about these recently, and they sound amazing!
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Mitsubishi i-MiEV
Damn… Same. I was always excited for Elio which was supposed to be American made and use a moped engine that got insane gas mileage and cost 7 grand. Before their factory was bought from underneath them and they scammed everyone out of their money.
I will also take a glorified golf cart at this point.
US cars wouldn’t cost so much if the corporations would stop overloading the cars with features I don’t want. Here’s what I need: Car to go Car to charge
Here’s what I want: Radio AC/heat Electric windows
The wants are not even requirements.
A Bluetooth speaker set would be nice too. That’s not very expensive. Nor is the tablet in the dashboard. You could get both for less than a thousand dollars.
The features really aren’t the problem. They just refuse to stop price gouging.
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I really want an OPEC (one person electric car)
Backup cameras are required by law for safety reasons. Same with ABS, seatbelts, airbags etc, but a LOT of things can be ripped out.
Heat/AC are really required as well in most places.
I’d be happy if an Android or iPhone was a REQUIREMENT. It’d run the car as an app, be a nav system, entertainment and everything, plus keep the cost down even further.
Crank window (note only one!) on the ONE door with an emergency push out window on the other side. Speakers? No. A mono, Bluetooth connected one in the headrest is plenty.
It would need to be able to cruise at 70mph, but all the other little changes would mean huge weight savings and a single person “bubble shape” would be real aerodynamic. A standard 120v plug would be all that would be even offered. Keeps coat and weight down.
The closest I can get is a Renault Twizy!
Nah, I don’t need google updates being a critical component of my transportation. Mobile phone as an OPTIONAL ceter console, sure, but the vehicle must still work without it.
BYD cars are actually more feature rich than US cars from what I see. One of their big selling points locally was karaoke from the infotainment system.
Yeah, as with most things in the US currently, prices are artificially inflated. They’re doing this because they’re trying to keep up the facade that ‘these are just the new prices cuz inflation’ when it’s painfully apparent that it’s not. They’re trying to pocket as much of our money as possible and they know if competition is introduced they’ll be forced to cut into those sweet sweet greedflation profits. I’m honestly never going to buy another US made vehicle if I can help it. My next vehicle will more than likely be foreign electric, and seeing this post just solidifies I’ve made the right decision.
And these Chinese vehicle prices are artificially deflated.
They’re trying to pocket as much of our money as possible and they know if competition is introduced they’ll be forced to cut into those sweet sweet greedflation profits.
I’m honestly never going to buy another US made vehicle if I can help it. My next vehicle will more than likely be foreign electric
I don’t really follow this line of logic. You state that companies here are artificially inflating their prices but then state that you’ll buy a foreign brand electric, which is going to be one of the exact same companies that you accuse of inflating prices. There are only a handful of US car makers, GM, Ford, and Tesla, and only 1 of those 3 put out EVs in any meaningful quantity.
What is it you’re not understanding? Honest question, no sarcasm. I’m stating I won’t buy a US vehicle, and my next will most likely be a foreign electric. Did I state something false because US manufacturers aren’t meeting a threshold of electric vehicles produced? Market is shifting to electric, which means even if they aren’t now, they’ll probably lean into electric in the coming years. Again though, no relation to either of the statements I made.
Because all those foreign manufacturers are already selling their vehicles here and for comparable prices to the tiny share of remaining US companies that still exist (GM, Ford, Tesla). If you think these high prices are just US companies being greedy, then how do you explain VW, Hyundai, Kia, Toyota, etc selling their cars for the same price?
In reality it’s all about the battery manufacture. It’s the most expensive component and BYD is vertically integrated (they even mine their own lithium, they are a huge battery manufacturer in their own right and sell cells to other companies to make cars) and has done extensive research on making it cheap with their BYD blade. Nobody can afford to compete with them, but it’s not because they’re getting subsidies. It’s because they’re a company that’s built completely different when you compare it to buying batteries from third parties.
The cry foul that people make is no company would’ve survived in building that sort of initial vertical integration without the government propping them up. That’s right, but I don’t see the US trying to develop an industry that even compares.
This is obviously false as Tesla has their own battery factories and still can’t sell that cheap, Korea has Samsung and LG manufacturing batteries on a comparable scale and Hyundai/Kia can’t sell that cheap, Japan has (partnered with Tesla) Panasonic and can’t sell that cheap. China is heavily subsidizing these vehicles. You can’t sell an equivalent car for less than half the competition, tens of thousands of dollars cheaper, just because you happen to be vertically integrated in manufacturing a big part of the car.
like how the cost of gas is artificially deflated in the USA ?
Yes.
From your tone, it sounds like you think that’s a bad thing, yet it also seems like you’re arguing for more of the same from China.
The major difference is China is subsidizing green technologies that are good for curbing climate change and the USA is subsidizing harmful shit that’s killing us all
Give me a break. China has some of the most lax environmental regulations on the planet which is why all the nastiest shit on the planet is produced there. To pretend like they’re some bastion of environmental protection is laughable.
Yes, they are subsidizing green technology but this isn’t for the benefit of the people, it’s for the benefit of the government as they want the rest of the world to be reliant on them alone. About a decade ago they did this same exact thing with photovoltaics and put a ton of solar manufacturers out of business because nobody could compete with a pocketbook the size of the Chinese government’s.
In China, abandoned EVs are piling up all over the place. Can you point out what about this is good for the environment when EVs only begin to offset the pollution created from their production after they’ve been driven around for a few years?
https://www.bloomberg.com/features/2023-china-ev-graveyards/
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_dioxide_emissions_per_capita
https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/co-emissions-per-capita
Does your gut have any published studies?
They’re also building 95% of the world’s new coal plants: https://www.carbonbrief.org/china-responsible-for-95-of-new-coal-power-construction-in-2023-report-says/
New coal construction has basically stopped everywhere else, including the US.
“Per capita” is also doing some heavy lifting. Nature doesn’t care about per capita. It cares about overall output, and China’s is enormous. They’d need to produce over four times less co2 on a per capita basis to be equivalent to US output. They’re closer to two times.
And these Chinese vehicle prices are artificially deflated.
Deflated thanks to the buying power of the US dollar. That’s just more US economic policy rebounding on itself.
You state that companies here are artificially inflating their prices but then state that you’ll buy a foreign brand electric
Domestic automakers are running enormous administrative overhead, thanks to their focus on stock buybacks and investment in kitsch features like AI. That, plus the high cost of computer chips created by the AI/Metaverse/Crypto bubble which is, itself, feeding into buybacks and other corporate accounting tricks to boost executive and board compensation.
Chinese firms don’t have that baggage. So they don’t need to put enormous markups on their vehicles. The real cost to produce for a new car (especially a small one) is fairly low and you can still turn a big profit on volume if you can outcompete American automakers on price.
There are only a handful of US car makers
Thanks to decades of consolidation. But those car makers have millions of workers spread across dozens of factories. They command hundreds of billions of dollars in domestic capital. Its not like these are three smol beans fighting the Big Scary BYD. These are three of the wealthiest and most profitable businesses to ever exist on the planet.
And they can’t compete.
Deflated thanks to the buying power of the US dollar. That’s just more US economic policy rebounding on itself.
Deflated because China is subsidizing these vehicles directly as they’re state owned companies. What are you even talking about with the buying power of the US dollar?
Domestic automakers are running enormous administrative overhead, thanks to their focus on stock buybacks and investment in kitsch features like AI. That, plus the high cost of computer chips created by the AI/Metaverse/Crypto bubble which is, itself, feeding into buybacks and other corporate accounting tricks to boost executive and board compensation.
Really? Let’s see some names and numbers. How much did Hyundai invest in the Metaverse and crypto. How much have they spent on stock buybacks? What about Toyota, VW, BMW, GM, Tesla, Honda, and MINI. What percentage of their overhead accounts for these investments exactly? This reads like incoherent ramblings of all the things you don’t like in the world but focused at car companies.
The real cost to produce for a new car (especially a small one) is fairly low and you can still turn a big profit on volume if you can outcompete American automakers on price.
So what’s the exact cost to produce a new car?
Thanks to decades of consolidation
Uh, what? Are you referring to the decades of 1900-1910? GM has owned their subsidiary brands for over 100 years along with Ford and Tesla is a relatively new company. What consolidation?
They command hundreds of billions of dollars in domestic capital. Its not like these are three smol beans fighting the Big Scary BYD. These are three of the wealthiest and most profitable businesses to ever exist on the planet.
And China commands hundreds of trillions of dollars, which is who automakers are really competing against.
Three of the wealthiest and most profitable businesses to ever exist on the planet? This is legitimately hilarious and so false. GM was bankrupt 15 years ago. Ford has had to survive on government loans which it wasn’t able to pay back until recently and both have a market cap of ~$50B. Tesla is an outlier as they’re valued extremely high for their financial situation and what they’ve produced thus far and most people agree that they’re a bubble waiting to burst. By what metric are they the most profitable and wealthiest?
Also, aside from all this ignorance, what’s your justification for the bulk of the US auto market, made up of foreign companies, selling their cars for the same prices as these three domestic companies?
Deflated because China is subsidizing these vehicles
What do you think those $7k US tax credits for new EVs constitute?
A subsidy that applies to everyone in the market, not just the “home team.” That’s the difference between subsidies to entice consumers to buy EVs and subsidies to put your competitors out of business to the detriment of everyone but you.
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You’re right, and they have a history of government sponsored corporate espionage and industry subsidies that support this.
However, this is an unpopular opinion on Lemmy. Ask me how I know…
it is time to remove all tariffs on EVs under 25k and let anyone who wants to fill that slot in.
How to force other car makers to build more reasonable EVs at more reasonable prices is an important question. But the answer isn’t “Uyghur labor camps”.
Okay fair point. What about regular old prison labour?
You mean prison slavery? That’s the US, get on it lol
Hey I’m not discriminating, I think US and China compete very well on prison populations.
Not really, and you can thank every president after and including Nixon for that. Specially Nixon and Reagan though.
How reliable do you think those numbers are?
Reliable enough for Wikipedia, it seems.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_United_States_incarceration_rate_with_other_countries
Yeah a cursory look does seem to confirm the USA is a world leader in locking people up!
China is sadly far behind in yet another key metric. But they’re making good headway by having almost as many Uighers in camps as their entire prison population!
Thanks for the sources.
Not a thing where I live, so I didn’t even consider that.
American (and european) car makers can’t fill that market need due to higher labour costs and stricter environmental laws.
Also the fact that the chinese government heavily subsidizes electric auto makers skews the market in favour of the chinese manufacturers.
It’s the Walmart business model. Move into a new area and undercut your competitors just long enough to put them out of business. Once this happens you have the market over a barrel and can charge however much you like.
I seriously don’t understand how people keep falling for this rhetoric and claiming this is all about protecting US companies when there are only 3 US companies left and they barely makeup 1/3 of the US auto market.
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At some point though the benefit of moving away from fossil fuels infrastructure outweighs the labor and strategic protection afforded by tariffs. IMO we are at that point- if we keep on doing what we’re doing for another 30-50 years union jobs probably won’t matter when vast parts of the world become uninhabitable
Those environmental benefits are lost when they’re built in a country with some of the most lax environmental laws in the world and then shipped halfway across the planet.
They also seem to be of questionable quality as in China, they have abandoned EVs piling up all over the place. There’s nothing good for the environment here.
https://www.bloomberg.com/features/2023-china-ev-graveyards/
then Incentivize EV reuse as home scale batteries
This is a good use for the old battery packs but it’s not like you can just park the derelict car in your garage to power your home.
These packs will need to be processed and then resold as battery storage banks. This also ignores all the pollution created from producing these cars in the first place along with the pollution created from recycling the car only for them to be treated like disposable junk and tossed into the garbage after a couple years.
why can’t the car just be parked in the back (or front) yard permanently with a tarp over it?
You could do that and then live in it while renting out the main house to someone else for profit. This is a million dollar idea.
I wouldn’t buy such cars if I’d know they were X% made with human suffering.
Yeah I’m fine with just taking a train that will last way longer and is staffed by my local citizens who are being paid for their labor and effort and rent a well made car made from a respectful compamy or buy it if I need it long term.
But I guess I might just be a conservative socialist cause I don’t think mass produced with slave labor, with stolen raw materials still from Africa, millions of individual electric vehicles is still any form of solution for anything least of all climate change.
But sure let’s praise china for doing the uber model of electric cars.
America owns the fossil fuel industry. That is what all those “invade countries to steal their oil” memes are about.
Tariffs + subsidies of our own + improvements of public transit/city planning
Buying chinese electric cars ain’t gonna help the environment.
They also make better cars. That also helps.
For example Volkswagen has no EV that even comes close to a BYD in terms of quality.
Are these cars capable of passing U.S. automotive safety rules? Or is this argument moot because they can’t be legally used on U.S. roads?
The Chinese are able to sell cars into the EU so I am sure they could come up with something they could sell here.
BYDs cars seem to be pretty good. They pass the EUs safety tests.
We talking about the same “rules” that allow regular Class D license holders to drive a 40 ft RV with no additional training? Or perhaps the same rules that allow Cybertrucks to even exist on public roads?
Americans love to talk shit about safety standards when they don’t even exist at home
No you’re talking about licensing rules not crash safety standards. They’re completely different.
Yes, but also yes. Whole lot of “light trucks” on your roads with worse crash safety https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jN7mSXMruEo
The commenter doesn’t deserve the downvotes
Why did Ford dump all of the models that offered a variety of price points ?
Because they could afford to be profitable and not care about 90% of the US consumer body.
Same with GM and Dodge RAM. They quit making lots of cars to save money for themselves. And now the US has betrayed the US consumer again pushing a green agenda while maintaining OIL hegemony in vehicles for the masses.
Now we have fewer types of vehicles, lower inventory, higher prices, 10 year car loans, and restrictions on getting the green vehicles that we were encouraged to want. American Dream has become the American Delusion.
It’s the same cycle we had from back in 2002, under the Bush Hummer tax cut. Government subsidized light trucks and made gasoline artificially cheap, so people went out and bought these enormous vehicles and dumped millions of gallons into them for power.
Then 2008 hits, gas prices go vertical, car loans go bust, and the Big 3 are out begging for bailouts. Obama delivers (while Mitt Romney signs his own death warrant in Michigan by telling Detroit to go bankrupt) and rides a popular wave of support for saving the American auto industry from itself. But he doesn’t bother to do any kind of regulation or curb the consumption of fossil fuels, because that would make soccer moms still driving their 10 ton vehicles sad.
Then the bubble pops in 2020 thanks to COVID and everyone runs into receivership again and we’ve got to flood the zone with taxpayer bailout money.
But that’s okay, because COVID actually gave us cheap gasoline again! So we get another era of cheap gasoline and big cars and a brand new automotive industry bubble.
Gee, I hope history doesn’t repeat itself.
:/ sorry bro
The funny thing is y’all in the US still have a better selection of vehicles available than we do in Europe, it’s just mostly not from American marques.
I recently got my hands on a USDM Subaru. It has more options than the EU spec one so I figured I’d look at the US Subaru website and yup, even for current model years, they have WAY more options available in terms of both models and trims. Y’all still get the WRX sedan, we only get the Impreza hatchback with a naturally aspirated engine. We don’t get the Ascent either.
You guys also get things like the Toyota 4-runner, Volkswagen Atlas, etc in terms of SUVs that are pretty big, but not gigantic.
Canada is already set to implement a 100% tarrif while claiming it wants people to switch to EVs. Why are we making affordable EVs unaffordable if we want average people to make the change?
Car companies have had more than enough time to build these cars and they already have a $7500 or larger advantage they can use to compete with Chinese made cars. They refuse to make cars that will come in under 25K. I say fuck them.
They just increase the cost by that rebate too
American cars are priced by what someone will pay, so any rebate or tax incentive just raises the price
same problem with unregulated higher education prices + loans
because the auto industry is a huge part of the American retail market and they’re afraid this will give China a huge edge on taking over the global economy, which it totally will, but it is the fault of the USA for not supporting their domestic industries.
Because China is not fairly competing with other countries. They are subsidizing BYD manufacturing and supply chain with the goal of making BYD the largest electric car company in the world. Yes, their vehicles would probably still be cheaper than other manufactures even before subsidies (Lower cost of living in china, ignoring of fair wages, ignoring of environmental concerns all reduce costs), but they are unfairly trying to make the world reliant on their products.
That being said, i do agree with your sentiments that we should be making it easier to purchase electric cars. Providing additional discounts or high turn in credit for returning your current gas car would be appreciated so that we can actually make progress on reducing global warming.
Lower cost of living in china, ignoring of fair wages, ignoring of environmental concerns all reduce costs
Not making land yachts and not actively having a temper tantrum over the market transitioning to EVs might both be contributing factors as well.
Please oh please just let me buy a BYD without hassel Canadian government, even In Alberta I will daily it
I have a BYD Seal here in Australia. You yanks are missing out
We miss out on so much from the rest of the world but we have so many pridefully ignorant people that will die on any hill that might improve our lives.
I’d personally love to have more than 0 weeks of government required paid time off, sick days, the top reason for bankruptcy not be medical bills, and no more mass shootings but I will most likely be dead before any of that happens.
I really want the Dolphin but I definitely am in no way near being able to afford it yet.
My mother in law has the Dolphin, its really roomy for a car that size and quite nice to drive
Oh yeah? Wheres your carrier battle group, bub?
You guys will protect us, we give you Pine Gap
We will protect Pine Gap 🙃
I’ll take interest when their labor practices are closer to humane and further from indentured servitude.
Yeah say what you want about American cars but at least they’re from unionized factories
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American car manufacturers refuse to fill the market need.
keep in mind, at the around 15-25k price, you run into the problem Vinfast has when they introduced themselves to the U.S market. What would an informed buyer rather do: buy a cheap new vehicle or a used premium vehicle. Chevy* backed out of making yearly bolts because demand wasnt high enough, despite the 7500 rebate would bring it down to 22k
If there is no demand, then there is nothing to worry about. Remove the tariffs and let China offer 15k cars here in America.
i do agree, they should be let in just that dont expect those prices. in order to keep a price low they need the supply chain at a local factory in order to match said price, as well as adhere to the saftey standards for vehicles in said country (they arent the same globally). even in countries that has a BYD factory like Thailand do not get the low end prices that you basically only see in China. While id like the doors open, just keep in mind the vehicles sit closer to 17-22k pre local changes and built fully in said country.
A few half way decent 20k cars here would be very helpful.
Why don’t you buy a Bolt or Leaf if you want a 20k EV?
Because those are not good cars. The low range of the Leaf and slow recharge of the Bolt make them impractical.
So not only do you guys want dirt cheap cars but they also need to have all the bells and whistles too? And none of you realize why that isn’t possible apart from some state-financed companies that rely on slave labor and lax environmental laws?
Who’s really being greedy here?
Buyer: I want a small, light weight, reliable vehicle with no frills or excess features, that will get me from point A to point B.
Automotive industry PR: So what you’re saying is that you want bells and whistles? Why don’t you buy radar in the bumper, a distracting touch screen that can’t be used while going over bumps or around corners instead of buttons, heated seats that don’t work without a subscription, heating elements in the steering wheel that occasionally burn you and set your car on fire, heavy sunroofs that leak, heavy electric motors to adjust your seats, heavy electric motors to roll the windows, heavy electric motors in the steering column that will fight you for control of the vehicle, a video game console for a speedometer, more cameras than a paparazzi, and expensive self-driving software the does not work yet but we totally promise that it will Soon™. Also, it will not get you from point A to point B.
Automotive industry when sales are disappointing:
shocked_pikachu.jpg
stick_in_bike_wheel.jpg: “Fucking China!”
Mmmmmmmm nothing has ever gone wrong with letting China do what they want in a country that isn’t china…spycars, cheap builds, crappy workmanship, locking countries into debt traps. I give china zero trust, not like I trust American companies either but we’re already stuck with them. I’d rather not see more garbage here thanks.
As opposed to American spy cars, cheap builds, crappy workmanship? Also do you think the US locks countries in debt traps? All of those things are already here in the US. Chinese made cars are selling like crazy because there is a demand not met by US companies. It would seem to me that the correct step is to force the hand of American companies by importing significantly cheaper EV alternatives. China is subsidizing their ev sales to ramp up production and lower costs through increase in volume.
Will tariffs fix any of these issues?
US companies are only a small fraction of the market here. The tariffs aren’t there to protect US companies, they’re there to protect US manufacturing and the US auto industry which is made up of mostly foreign brands.
I didn’t choose my country, but I’m stuck in it. I’ll trust home over the neighbours first.
You’re one of the servants, not the house owner.
This is the most ‘China bad for no particular reason’ post I’ve ever seen
Good points.
The bolt was insanely popular. Chevy made a claim that wasn’t backed by data and it turned out they were trying to phase it out for the new platform. It was so unpopular that they’re bringing it back.
I don’t think the Bolt was a practical vehicle? You can’t take road trips with it, even across the charger-dense East Coast USA - it won’t get you from Miami to Orlando, or from New York to DC.
Driving it from 80% to 20% charge gives a range of 155 miles, which is decent, but then a fast charging station would need 1.4 hours to charge it back up from 20% to 80%.
budget cars in a nutshel are not practical for long range, which is why theres no demand for it in the US. range is one of the biggest reasons why car companies dont sell new EVs for under 30k for the most part. buyers are too picky about what they want in a budget car so the sales flounder and people wonder why no company even attempts to.
personally people buying budget evs need to either wait for better infrastructure, or be the practical person and rent a vehicle for long distance travel.
people are essentially asking for a car that basically cant exist to exist, hence the real situation is why wpuld someone buy a budget new car when you can buy a used premium car
And even the East Coast is severely lacking on EV infrastructure. The only chargers in my hometown are a pair that they installed with the new elementary school, and those are locked all day because they don’t want random people sitting at an elementary school when there’s kids there. The stupidity of the design aside, the next closest charging station I know of is about 75 miles away.
I’d drive an EV if it was practical, but when you can really only charge them on a self-installed home charger, it really impacts where you can go with them.
This is why electric cars need to be “second car” cheap. I have a super-mega-hauler-SUV because about 4 times a month, I REALLY need one. Every other trip is done in my ancient tiny Honda. Every 10k miles on my Honda at 35mpg it saves me about $1500 in running costs over the SUV. If I could buy an $8k electric runabout it’d be even faster payoff.
American car manufacturers refuse to fill the market need.
That. American car companies - continuing an unbroken streak of greed, corruption, and environmental devastation - demand to have the same fate as the music industry: utter destruction. The pathetically ginormous “trucks” threatening everyone around them shall be their legacy.
Mismanagement, thy name is American automotive industry.
The pathetically ginormous “trucks”
Are due to absurd incentives in NHTSA standards, which tighten economy and emission standards more on smaller cars than larger ones. Rather than try to reach the implausible requirements set on small cars, they just lengthen and widen them until the are large enough to qualify for a looser standard.
Correct the perverse incentives, and cars will get smaller again.
Yeah there are “reasons”. So? What they’re doing is wrong. If the incentives were changed and making smaller cars would fit those incentives do you think they could undo the 40 years of brainfuckery they’ve committed by making tearing-up-nature-like-a-rock-tough suddenly be compact efficient?
No. They’d just charge more for the same or bigger and blame the government.
As much as I want cheap EVs I trust china about as far as I can throw the country with access to all the data the could get from cars in this country.
They make almost everything you use. They have massive access already. Most of your current car electronics are made there.
Much easier to backdoor data when you make the entire system including the software.
Who do u think makes most of the electronics for vehicles currently?
Components != Complete system including software
Things are so tiny nowadays, you could probably cram a tiny processor w/ ram, and 5g modem into something the size of one of those cylindrical capacitors. Of course getting by the scrutiny of US engineers receiving a product with that would be a little harder.
then maybe the us should blanket ban closed source/ binary blob automotive software
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Fun fact. The ten most “American-made” cars of 2023 are:
Tesla Model Y Tesla Model 3 Tesla Model X Tesla Model S Honda Passport Volkswagen ID.4 Honda Odyssey Acura MDX Honda Ridgeline Acura RDXHmmm, something seems to be missing… 🤔
Mercedes, Audi and BMW?
I’m sure they’re right around the corner, pretty close to the top 10.
Oh, you meant Ford, GM and Chryslerdaimlerfiatstellantis?
Yeah nah, as true patriots, they produce in other countries so Americans would pay for the cars, but not be paid to build them.
For better or worse, there are multiple ways of measuring “American Made”. An alternate measure, which probably matters more in this conversation, is “how many people that worked on <product> are American residents”. Here’s a study that tries to rank each model by how much it contributes to the US economy
The vast majority of the development (engineering, planning, purchasing/supply chain, quality, after sales, etc) effort for Honda and VW is overseas, along with most other non-domestic brands. This extends beyond their own employees to their tier 1s. Many OEMs use suppliers that are located geographically close to their development centers.
None of this excuses the domestic OEMs for their abandonment of cars, their endless march to higher and higher average transaction price, or their quality records.
all the custom cars?
What do you mean by putting Honda and VW in the list?
Oh wow! That goes back far, I had no idea. Thanks for enlightening!
They’re talking about making Chinese drones, including hobby drones, illegal. I’d be amazed if they did that while letting a compute node on wheels drive 15k miles yearly in America gathering data and phoning home.
Why are we ok with domestic manufacturers doing this though
Well, I agree with you, but china is a military threat to the US and its allies. Look at what happened in Lebanon today. The CCP would definitely use commodity technology to assassinate people.
You would be the first person I’ve heard blaming China for the pager attack.
Edit: yea, it’s way better to baselessly suggest China would conduct a mass assassination
Dude, you’re missing the context completely. It’s an analogy.
But China is not any more or less likely than any other country to do this type of thing; it really seems like you’re associating them with that terrorist attack for no particular reason other than to take advantage of people’s imagination.
I don’t even know why you’d jump to tie those two things together.
Yet the only example is of a western ally pulling that shit.
