• Jaderick@lemmy.world
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    7 months ago

    A lot of those types of leftists fantasize about a glorious revolution, but many revolutions have happened and no utopias exist so…

    I think Contrapoints made the same argument in one of her videos.

    • mozz@mbin.grits.dev
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      7 months ago

      Agreed. I would add to that – there’s actually an incredibly instructive example to draw by looking at the non-violent-revolutionary movements that did achieve big social change in the past. The US labor movement in the late 1800s, Gandhi’s independence movement, the US civil rights movement with its partial victory, things like that. There are a ton of examples of people who achieved big things to revise the systems that rule their daily lives, starting from a way less advantaged position than the left in the modern day US. It’s not easy, no, but compared to an Indian person under the British Raj it’s an absolute cakewalk.

      Strangely enough, the people who are so incredibly upset with the broken system in the US as it pertains to this election (which, yeah, I get that), are somehow totally uninterested in looking at what actions big or small might produce positive change. They’re solely focused on criticizing Biden and only Biden, or on saying that it’s so broken that we might as well let Trump come to power because what’s the difference.

      It’s like “The plane is having engine trouble and I don’t know if we’re going to make it. I’m real scared and upset about the situation we’re in. I know! Let’s shoot the pilot in the head.”

      • Twinklebreeze @lemmy.world
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        7 months ago

        Wasn’t the us labor movement violent? I seem to remember something about troops firing on striking miners.

        • Jaderick@lemmy.world
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          7 months ago

          Mine owners utilized violence and essentially wage slavery to keep miners from unionizing and asking for more fair working conditions. Pinkertons got their reputation as being violent corporate mercenaries in this period, and they continue to be. The violence caused miners to fight back, and when they did the US army got involved usually in the interest of the mine owners. The lead up to the Battle of Blair Mountain is one of the best examples of this and maybe the most impactful.

        • mozz@mbin.grits.dev
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          7 months ago

          It was nonviolent, until bosses/police starting shooting miners and their families, at which point it developed into a small-scale civil war. So yes, I shouldn’t have simply said blanket non violent I guess… I was just trying to draw a distinction between “let’s fight for justice for ourselves” versus “let’s storm the capital and do away with the leaders” as two roads (with the first being more effective, and the second often leading to catastrophe instead of the progress that was hoped for.)

          • return2ozma@lemmy.world
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            7 months ago

            Labor rights and the labor movement throughout history in the US have been incredibly violent so I don’t know what revisionist history you’re talking about.

            • mozz@mbin.grits.dev
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              7 months ago

              You’re right, I should amend my comment to note that it wasn’t non violent and basically a small-scale civil war

              Oh, hang on

              (Actually, I do think I should have said it was nonviolent until they started shooting railroad workers, since that one came first. I’m a little fuzzy on the exact chronology but I think that would have been more accurate yes. The person I was responding to just said miners so I said miners.)

        • mozz@mbin.grits.dev
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          7 months ago

          Direct action on Gaza sounds great.

          Are you under the impression that MLK was saying, don’t vote for Boutwell in his election against Bull Connor, because Boutwell isn’t good enough to deserve our support?

          • archomrade [he/him]@midwest.social
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            7 months ago

            He’s not making a comment on voting or not voting at all, in fact this is written after Boutwell was elected.

            He’s addressing criticisms that directing protests at Boutwell before he has a chance to govern is misplaced and ill-timed, and he’s pointing out that while Boutwell may be gentler, he’s still a segregationist and is still in need of pressure. It doesn’t matter if one is gentler than the other, the goal remains the same, and no freedom is ever given by the oppressor without being demanded.

            Biden is gentler, but he’s still a Zionist, and so he is still in need of pressure.

            In case you’re unfamiliar with the rest of his letter, he’s also saying that the purpose of all direct action is to place pressure on moderates so that they may come to the negotiation table, even -and especially- direct action that causes material (in MLK’s case, non-violent) harm to those same moderates.

            We know through painful experience that freedom is never voluntarily given by the oppressor; it must be demanded by the oppressed. Frankly, I have yet to engage in a direct action campaign that was “well timed” in the view of those who have not suffered unduly from the disease of segregation

            And I haven’t even gotten to the Malcom X quotes.

            • go_go_gadget@lemmy.world
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              7 months ago

              They also seem to leave out the reality that without the threat of Malcom MLK would have been a lot less effective.

            • mozz@mbin.grits.dev
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              7 months ago

              I know what he’s saying, yes. Like I say, pressure on Biden over Gaza sounds great, and it actually seems like it’s having an impact, although it’s still pretty fuckin mild compared with what the US should be doing.

              • Jimmyeatsausage@lemmy.world
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                7 months ago

                It’s less than it should be, but it’s more than anyone has done before.

                I’ve been super impressed with most of the conversations here and how they’ve evolved. Early on, there was a lot of friction between the uncommitted movement and the center-left, and I saw some accounts really grabbing ahold of that divide and trying to expand it… but the community turned it around. We saw a few weeks of posts explaining the difference between primaries and the general in a surprisingly nonabusive way for social media and now those troll accounts can just keep throwing out “genocide Joe” and it becomes less plausible and more ridiculous everyday he takes another step away from Israel.

                Man, do I want more, but we’ve gotta claw for every inch, and it’s easier to do together.

                • Pan_Ziemniak@midwest.social
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                  7 months ago

                  Great summary. This has been my experience as well. You know what that means tho, right? WE MUST PUSH HARDER STILL!

                  The astroturfers will only get more numerous and hateful as we inch closer to november.

                  Stay strong comrade. Solidarity with workers, solidarity with the voters of which we should be a part, solidarity with those establishing systems of mutual aid, solidarity with those that take to the streets. Everyone must do a little of sonething, some will do more of everything.

            • Cryophilia@lemmy.world
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              7 months ago

              Later in his life Malcolm X realized much of his youthful positions on things was stupid and he retracted them.

              • archomrade [he/him]@midwest.social
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                7 months ago

                But not before we all benefitted from his activism.

                To go_go_gadget@lemmy.world 's point, MLK and Malcom ended up playing off each other in a way that resulted in the civil rights act, and for that we should certainly be grateful

                • Cryophilia@lemmy.world
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                  7 months ago

                  Sure. But I wouldn’t hold him of all people up in an appeal to authority. Or as a paragon of wisdom. He was an angry young man.

      • archomrade [he/him]@midwest.social
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        7 months ago

        Lol what a fruitful day of reading: since you mentioned Gandhi…

        Non-cooperation with evil is as much a duty as is cooperation with good.

        Palestine belongs to the Arabs in the same sense that England belongs to the English or France to the French.

        A ‘No’ uttered from the deepest conviction is better than a ‘Yes’ merely uttered to please, or worse, to avoid trouble.

        Fear has its use but cowardice has none.

        Man lives freely only by his readiness to die, if need be, at the hands of his brother, never by killing him.

        It is any day better to stand erect with a broken and bandaged head then to crawl on one’s belly, in order to be able to save one’s head.

        Is it not enough to know the evil to shun it? If not, we should be sincere enough to admit that we love evil too well to give it up.

        If co-operation is a duty, I hold that non-co-operation also under certain conditions is equally a duty.

        Honestly, of all the civil rights figures you could have cited, Gandhi is the one who would tell you that non-cooperation with evil is more important than self-preservation. How on earth could you look at Gandhi and say; ‘he would want me to vote for the lesser evil’?

        • mozz@mbin.grits.dev
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          7 months ago

          I thought we had worked this out earlier, talking about Bull Connor. I was all on board when I thought you were saying, let’s give Biden a hard time over Gaza. Now I’m a lot less sure what you’re saying.

          Do you think working as a collaborator of the Raj, is more or less the same as voting for the clearly less-genocide-supporting of two arguably-genocide-supporting candidates?

          Would this apply also to refusing to vote for Boutwell over Connor, or refusing to vote for the SDP (with all its colonial adventures in Africa and etc) over the NSDAP in prewar Germany?

          • Pan_Ziemniak@midwest.social
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            7 months ago

            I think u accidentally replied to the wrong comment, but im starting to really love seeing ur name come up. Very well informed on a period in time most of us only know so much.

          • archomrade [he/him]@midwest.social
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            7 months ago

            No, he’s saying sticking with your principles is more important than even preventing your own harm. He pushed for change by being willing to sacrifice himself. He wasn’t just blindly non-violemt, he risked self injury to advance change

            You keep fast-forwarding to voting day, but confidently standing your ground now is what moves the needle, not beating the drums of cooperation for Biden.

            • mozz@mbin.grits.dev
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              7 months ago

              Yes, I know what Gandhi’s saying. I’m asking how you’d apply it to the present day, and you’re deflecting instead of answering.

              You keep fast-forwarding to voting day

              Oh sorry I must have replied to a message under the wrong meme or something; the one on my screen is different I guess.

              (Edit: Also there’s this)

              I keep asking you to clarify what you’re saying, and you treat it like it’s some sort of trick, and react with tactics instead of clarity. That’s a hallmark of propaganda. Just say what you mean, if you feel confident enough to stand your ground in it.

              • archomrade [he/him]@midwest.social
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                7 months ago

                I’m saying the same as Gandhi is:

                Stand up for your principles and don’t cooperate with genocide. Be willing to put yourself in harms way (trump) and demand justice in exchange for your vote.

                It’s not a trick or propaganda, it’s pretty straightforward. I’m so confused because you do seem genuine but for some reason no matter how close I walk you to the conclusion you still somehow miss the point.

                Stop committing yourself to supporting Biden when he’s actively supporting genocide. Push him to see reason. In 7 months you can make the hard choice you keep harping about, but until then what’s the fucking point of running cover for him when you could be pushing him to see reason

                It’s not that goddamn complicated.

                • assassin_aragorn@lemmy.world
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                  7 months ago

                  Stop committing yourself to supporting Biden when he’s actively supporting genocide. Push him to see reason. In 7 months you can make the hard choice you keep harping about, but until then what’s the fucking point of running cover for him when you could be pushing him to see reason

                  I noticed this comment outside of the conversation we were already having, and I had to say that I actually completely agree. We should be pushing him, especially since there’s evidence it’s working. And you don’t have to refuse to vote for him – you still have 7 months until you have to make the hard decision.

                  I can get behind this.

                  • archomrade [he/him]@midwest.social
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                    7 months ago

                    Thank you for saying that, truly.

                    People are treating protests of Biden as if it’s the same as wanting Trump to win. People are so committed to the electoral team sports that they’re completely allergic to exercising their power against their own party.

                    There’s a reason why civil rights movements existed almost entirely outside of electoral politics; liberty and justice were never on the ballet to vote for to begin with.

                    If MLK resigned himself to what Democrats were willing to provide without protest, we’d still have segregation. If Douglass avoided speaking truth to power and rallying against Lincoln, we might not have abolished slavery and reconstruction might have been even worse (though admittedly reconstruction was shit anyway, but at least that wasn’t Lincoln’s fault).

                • mozz@mbin.grits.dev
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                  7 months ago

                  Be willing to put yourself in harms way (trump)

                  There it is

                  You understand that it’s not just me in harm’s way with Trump, right?

                  That he’s far more pro genocide (including specifically in Palestine) than Biden is?

                  I’m so confused because you do seem genuine but for some reason no matter how close I walk you to the conclusion you still somehow miss the point.

                  Believe it or not, there is often more to a conversation than you just walking the person you’re talking to over to the point that you want to make and repeating it in different ways until they absorb your way of seeing it.

                  I could be right or wrong; I’m just saying how I see things. But if your whole model for this is that your viewpoint is the correct one, and you need to persuade the person you’re talking to to see things exactly as you do and anything else is just a frustrating expenditure of bytes, then I think you’re gonna get limited benefit from any amount of time you spend online.

                  • archomrade [he/him]@midwest.social
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                    7 months ago

                    Im not telling to vote for Trump. I’m not even telling you to not vote for Biden. I’m telling you to fucking ask for something in exchange for the vote.

                    There’s a separate argument about what the value democracy is if it can’t be expected not to support genocide, but I’m not even pressing that issue.

                    Saying you aren’t going to vote if Biden doesn’t see reason doesn’t put Trump in the white house, it puts pressure on Biden. What you actually do on election day is different, but campaigning for Biden despite his genocidal complicity is so far from activism that it’s borderline complicit in the genocide in itself.

        • assassin_aragorn@lemmy.world
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          7 months ago

          Gandhi worked with the lesser evil plenty to earn India’s independence. He negotiated with Britain on pacts and agreements that didn’t result in India’s freedom but generally gained them more autonomy and fairness. He even supported the British in WW2 and suspended independence efforts at the time.

          If Gandhi said “okay hold up, let’s take care of the fascists alongside our colonizers”*, I think he would want you to vote for the lesser evil. I think we can infer from his actions that progressively achieving a goal through nonviolence is something he wholeheartedly supported.

          *(Granted, he still advocated that Japan and the Nazis be defeated without significant violence)

          • archomrade [he/him]@midwest.social
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            7 months ago

            And Douglass eventually worked with Lincoln, but not before ruthlessly criticizing him and supporting the dump-lincoln movement

            Gandhi refused repeated offers from the British, he absolutely did not just accept their offer as given.

            • assassin_aragorn@lemmy.world
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              7 months ago

              True, but the offers he did accept were not immediate independence for India. He knew when to take a good compromise and when to push for more. He continued to negotiate with the British while taking imperfect, but good deals.

    • BrokenGlepnir@lemmy.world
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      7 months ago

      I’ve seen some people on lemmy when I first started lurking, try to claim that some of the most dystopian nations are really close to utopia and are actually trying really hard guys. I think many of them were those types of leftists.

      • Pan_Ziemniak@midwest.social
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        7 months ago

        Just get a load of the accounts that keep replying to the comments i leave. Theyre not good faith actors. Theyre paid trolls or bots. And theyve flooded this thread. This post was at 440 upvotes with 240 comments some hrs ago and as of now sits at 489 and 360 comments. That should hopefully strike one as unusual. Im willing to bet that in that time this thread was upvoted significantly more than 50 times. American leftists are being targeted to ensure we dont turn out in november.

    • Nora@lemmy.ml
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      7 months ago

      Specifically America needs a revolution. There have been many revolutions around the world and its America that counteracts all of the wins for the people. If America had a revolution then finally we might be able to make some progress.

      There’s no utopias because of America.