- cross-posted to:
- hackernews@derp.foo
- cross-posted to:
- hackernews@derp.foo
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“Oh, what’s this unauthorized bullshit on our servers?”
[block]
I’m just surprised that it took this long
Probably had to be extra careful to test. MDM software software might get glitched out.
I’m really curious about how it was detected, how it was different from Apple devices. If nothing else I’m looking forward to reading about how that all worked.
It is usually easy to detect a specific client. Like even if you ignore the keys there are dozens of little details like the TLS fingerprint of whatever library they use not matching iOS. Things that are easy to miss and sometimes hard to bypass. Then there are heuristics on how it is used is likely unique.
From what I understand, their guess is that Apple is now checking if the device also has support for other services, such as FaceTime. Beeper Mini and pypush don’t pretend to support FaceTime, so it breaks.
Can all the folks saying “I don’t care” on this just stop? If this doesn’t affect you, why are you commenting at all?
Some smart folks managed to reverse engineer Apple’s secretive tech that they refuse to put on any platform they don’t own, which is fucking awesome. Even if you don’t give a shit about using iMessage, it’s awesome they were able to stick it to Apple at all, and make the gap between iPhone and Android that much smaller.
And of course Apple comes in and breaks it. Do you not wonder why? Does this mean there was a minor security hole that was exploited or was it something else that changed? This arms race is fascinating, regardless of your preferred mobile OS.
We’re literally on a platform designed to escape these closed ecosystems and walled gardens. A platform built around open communication standards.
And still there’s a downright bizarre contingent of people around here that seem to be chomping at the bit to defend or downplay Apple’s iMessage shit.
That’s funny when most of the comments are saying “just use WhatsApp” as if that’s not a walled garden for messaging.
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Sir, this is a Wendy’s.
It’s relevant though. Attack their argument if you think it’s bad, but don’t say they were being off topic, because they were not.
I read that it was a 16 year old kid which makes it more fascinating
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The “I don’t care” crowd could be the rest of the world, that use messaging apps instead of SMS or iMessages. Try to consider this factor first. Not everything should be centered in America, or exclusively to what happens there.
I understand that. But that doesn’t have anything to do with my point, which is that if someone doesn’t care about this issue, they don’t need to show how much they don’t care.
In fact, I would argue that your general sentiment – that of considering others in different situations than oneself – applies more to the people acting like this topic doesn’t matter because it doesn’t affect them personally.
Guess you’re right. I’m not justifying them, but trying to put a bit of light into why a lot of people don’t care. I’m not the kind of person to express such a moot opinion, but I guess some people get tired of seeing a conversation that only affects only a portion of people and feel the need to express their feelings. Again, I’m the kind to remain silent, but there are all kinds of people out there.
Rule no°1 on Reddit/Lemmy: Every user is part of the US unless stated different.
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Can all the folks saying “I don’t care” on this just stop? If this doesn’t affect you, why are you commenting at all?
Haven’t you heard? Lemmings are all about “Stay alone in a basement and never get out and socialize, because people use something you don’t agree with. If they really want to talk to you, they’ll switch.”
They didn’t, but now they’re on lemmy with more people with the same attitude, trying to socialize but never realizing why they don’t have any friends.
Reddit migration brought all the entitled, self agrandizing, freeloading, weirdos to the fediverse.
The fact that people care about whether their messages are blue or green is so absolutely ridiculous.
I’ve known people who literally refuse to message anyone who doesn’t use iMessage (and by extension has an iPhone).
Every one of them turned out to be a twat in every other facet of their personality as well.
yeah people should use this a a filter for people they should be avoiding.
That’s what I’d do if I ever came across such a person. I haven’t had the pleasure yet fortunately.
This reminds me of the blackberry ping days, everyone and their mom acting like a diva for having a sidekick blackberry just to use ping.
Those were better days financially.
BBM was the jam back in the days before iPhone. If you wanted to be in on the group chats you needed a blackberry. In the last little bit they opened it up to more devices but the gig was up.
I still miss their icons.
They were never popular over here outside of business users, I always liked the tiny red LED. Sure, I can make the flag on my iPhone blink on new messages, but it’s not the same
Yes the light was the best. Some of the early android devices tried to carry on with this practice but screen time attention I suspect won the day
But Android phones still have multicolor notification led. In fact it blows my mind that iPhones don’t, I wouldn’t even consider a phone without it anymore.
Yes had a business owner come in and demand all employee phones be iPhone or get out. Jobs was his personal hero and thought Apple could do no wrong. The issue was the company he bought was run on software made for Windows. A lot of extra effort went into making it work on macbooks he insisted we all use.
In the end he believed he was as great as Jobs. Not sure that’s a great role model across the board for those that know more than just the apple procducts. The family values and toxic *work practices were not for everyone.
I was glad to get out of that company and back to my android phone and now Linux computing.
I will say the 3 good things about my iPhone was the camera, the full resolution media sharing with other iPhone users via iMessage, and the gallery uploading to other iOS devices.
The latter two are still a weakness with Google. At least they are addressing it with RCS but its still going to take time. Google photos has cloud back up but I’ve not really looked into how seamless the media backup to all android devices has been.
Google photos is just cloud back up like iCloud backup for iOS devices.
Google photos is also on iOS devices, so you could have your photos on any of your devices.
Apparently it breaks group chats, notwithstanding that it’s an Apple problem, Signal exists and doesn’t feature any of this nonsense.
I’m in more than one group chat with android people, and it’s fine.
It’s just that you can’t use some iMessage features. But nothing is really broken.
It’s because it breaks all the nice extra functionality of iMessage. iMessage is closer to Discord chats; You can do things like react to messages, send live emojis, spoiler/emphasize text, edit/delete sent messages, see when someone is typing, see read receipts, automatically send check-ins when you arrive at a destination, draw doodles, send full quality media, share galleries natively, etc… But as soon as someone with an android joins the group chat, all of that goes out the window and you’re stuck with boring old SMS.
Is it intentionally hostile on Apple’s part to bar androids from joining? Yes. But the reactions from Apple users aren’t entirely unjustified, because they’re left with a noticeably reduced feature set as soon as someone forces them to use green bubbles.
Is it intentionally hostile on Apple’s part to bar androids from joining? Yes. But the reactions from Apple users aren’t entirely unjustified
The reaction from Apple users is to blame Android users - which is entirely unjustified.
But of course, post purchase rationalization and brand loyalty play a big part in why people want to externalize blame rather than questioning their own decision or blaming their favorite company for providing a shitty cross-platform messaging experience.
So why not use something like WhatsApp or Signal instead then? Sounds like a terrible user experience to me. Nobody I know uses iMessage, everybody uses WhatsApp instead, which is platform agnostic.
But I’m European, so the iPhone penetration is lower iirc and they can’t stay in their bubble as much.
Because Whatsapp users are just as big “twats” as you call it. Try functioning without Whatsapp in Europe, you can’t, and no amount of excuses will get you out of it.
Any messaging network starts acting like peer pressure once enough people around you are using it
I’m personally dying to see the DMA do its magic. If there’s even a dreamy chance of not having to have the big messaging apps installed on my phone in order to talk to people on these platforms, then I don’t want to stop dreaming.
In theory it would be trivial to open up the big networks, if they were each willing to expose a public, open API. The APIs don’t even have to be interoperable directly, they could let the client apps deal with that. It could be rolled out super fast if they wanted to – couple of months.
But of course none of them actually wants this, so I expect they will fight it tooth and nail, while not appearing to do so. Meaning they’ll drag this out for as long as possible while blaming each other. I expect RCS will be a perfect red herring for this, because of its complexity and the ability to blame interop issues on each other.
Wut? I’m in Europe and I’ve never had WhatsApp in my life.
My point wasn’t specifically about Whatsapp, it’s that you have to use what the others around you use.
Welcome to Middle School. Blue bubble and ‘Find My’ support are feature drivers. You’re either in or out.
Ironically, Spotify and x-platform playlist sharing (aka mixtapes) drive counter-adoption.
Go figure.
Beeper is more than that. Beeper MINI is about that. But I’ve been using Beeper on my PC for the past year because I am so tired of picking up my phone a million times a day just to send someone a message. I’d say probably 90% of the people I know use iPhone/iMessage so having the ability to message them on desktop was a lifesaver for me. Really bummed it’s not working anymore.
Why doesn’t apple make web messaging available like Android?
Then you won’t need Apple hardware to use it
Messaging apps in general are basically walled gardens.
Gasp, we should try making a federated alternative.
This is literally perpetuated by schoolyard bullying. Anyone over the age of 20 will very likely be entirely out of touch with how big a deal green/blue is for pre-teens and teens these days. It’s pretty much a cornerstone in teen social structures.
I don’t know what may have changed as I am an iPhone user, but about 10 years ago I worked in a small security role for a fairly large company, and the communications company we were using was more than happy to hand over sms logs as plain text. I would personally never send messages to anyone I was sure wasn’t encrypted and I can tell that by the blue bubble. I just don’t know when it is green.
I don’t know what has changed as I don’t keep up with it, but I am still dubious about messaging outside the Apple ecosystem, which is ok for me as I live in a country where most people use iOS
RCS on Android defaults to E2E encryption now since some year back, and Signal has been around for a long time now
Uh. It’s not that. Along w that is videos w potato quality, messages that never make it. Of course anyone reading your comment knows you missed the point.
Yeah.
Because Apple has a proprietary messaging format. They won’t adopt the standard the rest of the world uses or open theirs up for others to use.
They uh… are going to support rcs very soon so…
By choice or by force?
Hard to say. I think some eu stuff might have pressured a bit
Doesn’t change that it’s shitty now and has been for years.
They don’t get credit for the EU pressuring them to be less shitty.
Yeah, I get that I wish they had done rcs earlier or whatever. Like I get not opening iMessage up, but at least support the best standard out there would be nice. MMS and sms are garbo
Its not absolutely ridiculous and you sound like an idiot who thinks that everyone lives in the same little bubble as you.
Thanks for proving my third statement.
You sure it’s about that? What I heard is that being outside of “trusted” zone means less features such as media and encryption. Also the person in this article says apple users are basically forced to use sms to send messages to Android users. I too would not want to resort to plain paid messages if my partner doesn’t have the right app.
IPhone users have access to WhatsApp, Signal, and other apps android users use to communicate without sms
The problem is that, in the US and Canada, android users don’t tend to use those apps en masse. The vast majority use SMS.
I think at this point the majority of Android users use RCS, which Apple is actually going to implement next year.
That’s good to know. Though I wish people I knew, both apple and android, would switch to Signal instead.
It’s not as good as we want it to be. Those using RCS on Android are almost all using Google’s specific implementation, Apple is instead going to be using a more standard implementation. It’s probably going to work better than SMS, but it’s going to be a far cry from everyone just using any modern internet messaging service.
Yeah, but iphone users are different as they already have some default app that they could use instead of installing other apps. Wouldn’t they want to use that default app as often as possible if their partners have the same ability from their pov? I mean it’s not about the color as the original comment thinks, but about the stuff that the different color implies. Not the thing that is nice to the eyes, but the actual convenience and price.
I worked in the cellular space for about 20 years off and on before moving to other pastures. I guarantee you that maybe one in a thousand think like you.
BY FAR the average buyer that Apple targets come in two flavors.
First, the “I’m cool and all my friends are doing it” and second is the “I’m the father, I don’t personally give a shit but my daughter/son wants us all to be on iMessage.”
It isn’t “Androids “ anything. It’s a third party app. Way to stir things up.
Agreed!
Why is your account marked as a bot?
I didn’t know it was showing that. I’ll check my settings, and adjust. Thank you for letting me know.
Sounds like what a bot would say.
ok 🙂
Are you human?
I sure am. Are you?
Apples was and is still extremely anti-competitive and anti-consumers oriented.
Apple has always been a closed ecosystem, doing things “their way”. When they only sold computers, it was a niche company, with a niche audience. Then they started selling music players and phones, and they became a popular company.
The blue vs green bubble is just an American problem, that still use SMS as their main messaging protocol. The rest of the world use messaging app, like WhatsApp. It’s truly fascinating watching these events from outside the US.
As a German I see more glances of WhatsApp on iPhones than iMessage.
But I have to be honest: The video call is very neat in the Apple ecosystem.
We are lucky the EU is forcing them to adopt standards and not abuse their power. Maybe we’ll see some progress. New iPhones coming with USB-C is a good start and, ironically, I think it will make them sell more phones. But regarding blue vs green bubbles, the massive adoption of WhatsApp in the EU (fuelled by the greed of European Telcos charging per SMS) made us immune to this discussion.
For that for now.
I am looking forward to how it will progress.
So far I felt like we are doing a downward trend towards the US style of living.It’s interesting: in all my ignorance, my perception is that it’s the Germans the ones that feel more and more like the Americans (other than the British). But it may be just a wrong perception on my part. I honestly don’t know for certain.
Edit: a small note: you still gave the Greens and the Pirate Party to the EU Parliament, that are the best thing to ever happen to it. :D
I actually had no idea until now that anyone still charged money for SMS, outside the U.S. or otherwise.
I just looked at a mobile plan in Movistar (Spain). The page is in Spanish, but I guess you can understand the part I marked in red.
Well, seeing as I pay $90 a month for my phone with Verizon, I would burn everything down if they tried charging me for SMS. Hypothetically.
Originally they focused on computers that could do more for less. They encouraged people to open them up and upgrade or mod them.
It wasn’t till the 2000’s that they started locking everything down.
But remember: instead of going with DOS, or a PC compatible system, they developed their own OS. It’s always been closed. And doing things “their way”.
I’ve been a Mac user for more than 30 years, and I’ve always been isolated from the PC ecosystem. No PC Card was ever usable with a Mac, until they changed to Intel processors in 2005, and even then, you didn’t have drivers for those, you have to rely on some outside development. You could barely read PC files, and most PCs couldn’t read Mac files without external software until Apple changed to Mac OS X in 2001. PC peripherals were incompatible (different connectors and electrical requirements) until Apple introduced USB with the iMac in 1998 (and the PC ecosystem caught up with it).
While Macs were (somewhat) upgradeable, you needed to buy Mac specific parts to do it, made by Apple approved vendors.
So, It’s always been a walled garden. I know, I was there before the iPhone, before the iPod. They’re doing nothing different from when they started. The difference is in society: internet appeared, and we now expect everything to work with everything. We expect to be interconnected. But Apple? They always liked to be their own thing, to be different (“think different”, remember?).
So, it’s just normal Apple behaviour. Expecting anything different is not knowing what Apple really is. Fortunately, the EU thinks doing things “the Apple way” is no longer valid, and is forcing them to adopt standards, and don’t abuse their position. But they’re doing it reluctantly, complaining, and putting a fight.
The way you use “PC” as a synonym for “Windows” proves that you are indeed a long term Mac user.
…and an old fart, hahaha!
At least you didn’t call them IBMs
Of course, they are IBM compatibles!
While the bit about file interoperability may be more windows-specific, there is such a thing as the “PC Ecosystem”. The software has alternatives: dominated by DOS, then Windows, but also available are Linux and the various minor UNIX-likes, but the hardware really is a specific ecosystem based on a specific set of standards.
Shhh! Don’t upset them, they don’t know!
There is truth in what you’re saying, but I think it’s missing a lot of nuance especially when it comes to why a lot of the things you’re saying are true. A few quick things:
instead of going with DOS
Apple developed the original Mac OS to be the first major GUI OS, and MS was left struggling to catch up. Going with DOS would have been a major step back, and set computing back significantly.
always been isolated from the PC ecosystem.
which was originally more to do with IBM than Apple.
You could barely read PC files, and most PCs couldn’t read Mac files without external software until Apple changed to Mac OS X in 2001.
This was less because Apple wanted it to be that way, and more because Microsoft wanted it that way. The reason things switched in 2001 isn’t specifically because of OS X, it’s because Apple did a deal with MS in '99 or so (and MS only did it likely to avoid more regulatory scrutiny after losing an anti-trust case) and part of that deal was more interoperability. Apple had advertising campaigns basically saying “don’t worry, you can switch to Mac and bring your files with you.”
They’re doing nothing different from when they started.
This is also true, but again misses a crucial piece of context - they do it that way because they think it’s generally better and makes better products, and I think you’d generally have to be pretty unstable to argue otherwise. Think about snapshots in time - in the 80’s when it was DOS and original Mac OS. Do our computers look and work like DOS or Mac now? Compare modern laptops to a '94 powerbook or whatever was on the PC market. The modern phone and the modern OS compared to what came before iPhone. Or take a gander what Android looked like pre/post iPhone announcement; spoilers, it was a blackberry knock off instead of an iPhone knock off.) Even Windows today looks and acts more like macOS than it has since probably the 3.1 days.
Even some of the more seemingly shitty decisions follow this pattern. Remember, iMessage came out at a time when messages cost either $5-20 for what would now seem like an absurdly small block of messages a month or $0.10 a message. Its initial value prop was that it was stupid to pay that much and if you bought an iPhone you could cut your bill way down. Or Lightning instead of micro USB. MicroUSB couldn’t fulfill all of the functions Lightning could, and it’s a worse connector for a lot of reasons.
I mean, that said, iMessage was definitely designed to keep you on iPhone and it’s being deliberately used as lock in, and there are plenty of other shitty things about Apple (like any other corp) but the virulence with which people hate it is often just because they do not get it any more than I see people mindlessly bash Linux usually with insults that haven’t been true since 2006.
Truly you are a sage!
The locking down started with the original MacIntosh (or actually with the Lisa I guess). ISTR they had at least one bit more open period after that, but those have always been the exception.
Not really, they’ve always been big on being incompatible for the sake of locking in people: adb, FireWire, iPod requiring iTunes, etc.
Wouldn’t it be more correct to say that most Americans also use a messaging app (iMessage). The rest are just stuck with SMS to have compatibility with the iPhone users.
As the iPhone was (is?) not as popular in the Europe as it was (is) in the States that might also be one of the reasons why people here ditched SMS so fast once smartphones got popular.
But it’s not “most”, it’s more like half of Americans use iMessage (that’s not an app, it’s a service, the app is called Messages), and the other half uses SMS with different apps.
The factor that moved people away from SMS in the EU was telecom companies charging for it. SMS is virtually free for telecom companies, but European companies got greedy, and people moved to WhatsApp. They tried to block it, but accepted defeat after a while.
In the US, SMS is free with your phone plan, and it became popular with young people until iMessage appeared. Since iPhones are still subsidized by US telcos (afaik, correct me if I’m wrong), a lot of young people have iPhones and use iMessage, that’s far superior to SMS.
Remember this is the same company that has to either comply with the EU bridging regulation between messaging platforms or withdraw from the market.
I think they dodged that as well… https://arstechnica.com/?p=1989111
“Android users’ hopes that Apple’s iMessage would be forced to open up in the European Union have been dashed. Bloomberg reports that iMessage won’t qualify for the EU’s new “Digital Markets Act,” allowing Apple to keep iMessage exclusive to Apple users. …”
They skipped by the skin of their teeth. For now…
Basically because nobody in Europe uses iMessage. This is a WhatsApp town.
Speak for yourself. I’m a Signal user.
I have all of them (telegram, signal, whatsapp) but I’m basically forced to have whatsapp
So, you’ll be one of those thankful for the protocol bridgw.
Same here, I also have every single one of those. I’ve found that Telegram has become better than WhatsApp with their continuous improvements but not many people want to use it even after they download it “because nobody else uses it”. 🙃
Apple fanboys don’t care one bit. As long as they can look cool and feel like part of the cool kids, they’ll buy.
Only poor people flaunt their mobile phones.
Judging by Apple ownership, it’s not only poor people…
Didn’t they make one covered in diamonds? You’ve been watching too many of those ‘rich Vs really rich’ tiktoks
Honestly, people just know that blue = better quality, reaction emojis, and editing. They don’t know why that’s actually the case. Most laypeople don’t know a lick about things like RCS, E2EE, etc.
It’s not that they’re apple superfans that makes then like that or course, they’re apple obsessed because they’re fully brought into conspicuous consumerism - they love that apple is over priced and feature limited because it’s a way of demonstrating their excess wealth.
Airlines are big on this with their ‘show the world you’re special by spending more than most people do on their whole holiday just to get a slightly bigger seat and complementary drinks that you could have brought for twenty dollars.’ the same with cars that inexplicably cost the same as a house and why people need to have this year’s overpriced car.
Apple not being laughed out of existence is a symptom of our broken society, and yes I know people are going to tell me that they have some obscene reason for using apple but that’s just the very human trait of posthoc justification and rationalization of a choice made emotionally.
I’m certain you developed this astute perspective after a thorough and unbiased evaluation of the Apple ecosystem from a user perspective
I remember in the ipod days plugging a CD into the aul PC and ripping all the files as aac… A format that would only play in iTunes
I had an arcos jukebox before the first iPod came out, every time they’d release a new version it’s big feature would be something my jukebox had always done. Except it didn’t have an awkward spinning selector wheel or celebrity endorsements.
I could connect it to the cd player and record the whole thing as mp3s, I think it even used to split the tracks automatically but I might be wrong. Plug it into usb and it’s a HDD ready to have anything copied to it without hassle… No need for shitty iTunes, no complaints about wav files and never found an MP3 it couldn’t play.
I remember thinking that surely people will realize over priced and feature limited products are an insult but no, the kids of the future I had so much hope for turned out to be gen z who care more about brand recognition than anyone ever before. I still think the feature rich generics will have their day, maybe generation alpha…
“Awkward spinning selector wheel”
Say what you want, but the iPod click wheel was anything but awkward. It was the most approachable and efficient interface and hardware on the market by miles and miles. Navigating other similar devices without it is an awful experience of buttons and layered menus that feel clunky and slow.
I won’t deny that the Arcos and other jukeboxes were incredible devices, but they lacked accessibility and mass appeal. Their size and expense kept most people from even considering getting one. They were absolutely an enthusiast’s device and nothing more.
The iPod ushered in the boom of portable media players and paved the road for Apple’s performance in the mobile phone space by establishing them as purveyors of a superior form factor and experience when it came to those devices. Apple owes its continued success in its personal computer and tablet product lines to the iPod’s design and their decision to focus on creating a cohesive ecosystem across their products based on those design principles.
why can’t you simply foster openness and community god fucking dammit
Money.
iPhone user here, because Apple likes money.
I would say: because Apple investors like money.
Scum company
Well, because it’s Apple.
Because if they opened their walled off garden, there’s a chance they might lose profit and if they do, their CEOs might not be able to afford their diamond studded swimming pools and solid gold Humvees. Those things don’t grow on trees.
They’re adopting RCS next year, what more do they need to do?
Putting iMessage on Android just gives them a whole lot more control over the messaging ecosystem.
Honestly let’s have some dignity and not buy into this vapid pretentious idiocy.
Right, I don’t understand why these weird hacky services are making headlines. If you want to have a blue bubble, just buy an iPhone. They’re not actually THAT expensive, you can usually buy last year’s model for under $500 if you wait for a deal and you’re willing to commit to a carrier. Or if you really can’t afford that, you can get an older iPhone basically for free. Even a 3 year old model gets you a blue bubble.
Or, if you’re not an insecure child that gives in to peer pressure, get whatever phone you want.
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This.
I had an iPhone for a decade with my work. Quit both of them and got an android. I’m way happier being able to do things more than one way and to be able to customize everything.
Phones in general suck, but if the shitty, android at least let’s you do what you want.
lol ok.
The vast majority of androids are worse for repairability. The ones that get more than a year or two of support don’t have any parts available. The ones that do get support have far worse physical restrictions like straight up gluing parts in.
The rest you mention, >99% of people don’t do anyway.
But if you care, you can get a repairable phone like the Fairphone.
Are you talking about iPhone? Because repairing an iPhone requires specialist tools and specialist software. Oh, and it’s all glued together. 100% of people are unable to repair their own iPhone with replacement parts because parts are serialized and require proprietary software to unlock.
If you want to support these anti-consumer practices, that’s up to you, but there’s really no need to spread misinformation.
lol the only specialist tool you need is the pentalobe screwdriver and a suction cup. None of the rest is needed, it just makes it easy.
And unlocking the hardware for use just requires calling Apple support and saying “hey I’ve replaced this part and need it unlocked, here’s the serial”.
Nothing in an iPhone is solidly glued in. The battery has a couple of pull tabs to make it easy to remove. Something like a Samsung it’s damn near impossible to remove because the entire battery is glued down.
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You literally only have to call Apple to have it unlocked.
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It’s not just the blue bubble though. It’s being able to send and receive full quality pictures and videos to iPhone users without having to get them to install a 3rd party app. All the old people in my family have iPhone. They won’t learn Signal. Beeper bridged that gap.
Then use ANY other messaging service. Preferably Signal, but if that doesn’t work… Facebook, Whatsapp, literally anything.
Then use ANY other messaging service. Preferably Signal,
🤩
but if that doesn’t work… Facebook, Whatsapp, literally anything.
So Facebook, or Facebook? That might work for most people, but when there’s an open protocol right there, I’d rather steer clear of their products and services
Edit: add quotes
Even a 3 year old model gets you a blue bubble.
Damn, we calling 3 years old now? My iPhone 6 must be from the Paleolithic era then.
Lol I said it’s 3 years old, not “old”. That’s the not-so-secret secret of today’s phones: a 2 or 3 year old phone works just fine.
So how is someone who makes a conscious choice giving into peer pressure and insecure
No other introspective reasons why someone could select a phone othe than an iPhone.
They said if you’re buying solely based bubble color then it’s based on peer pressure, there of course are other valid reasons for someone to choose one and there are also other bad reasons.
I didn’t say that people only buy iPhones because of peer pressure. I said that buying an iPhone due to peer pressure is silly.
The point is open communication standard and tech illiterates like yourself keep repeating this Apple propaganda. Maybe read a wiki page or something idk
They’re adopting RCS next year. That’s the open standard.
Having iMessage on Android is dumb.
*They said they’re adopting it next year
I have a 5 year old iphone, it’s great. I can’t imagine it’s worth anything, just noting it works for every day use. You don’t need a new phone at all for anything.
ETA: I just NFC-charged my local transit card with my ancient-ass iphone the other day which is a thing I didn’t honestly know it could do yesterday. I’m not trolling, I don’t know what has been offered in the last 5 years on either platform that is at all required to use a phone, as long as Apple continues to support the phone with OS updates.
My thoughts exactly. It’s fucking childish to make such a fuss over the color of a text bubble. These kids need to grow up.
I think it’s a bit crazy to create a paid service on top of a reverse engineered product that isn’t static. Indivious, NewPipe and other youtube frontends aren’t going to create a paid youtube frontend, because they know Google could kill that at any point. Google could dedicate a full team to making youtube frontends non-functional.
Apple has a much bigger incentive to derail iMessage alternatives because they know that dumb parents have taught their kids how to live in a closed ecosystem and be slaves to Apple. 87% of USAian teenagers use Apple, which means it’s only a matter of time before Apple becomes the dominant player on the market. If you want to keep making fat stacks of cash, the best thing you can do is control the market, which means killing of competition.
The only reason Apple would ever stop killing competitors is if it became legally and financially detrimental to do so. They’d have to reach Microsoft levels of antitrust and bad press before even considering backpedaling.
Everyone buying their products is helping Apple along to their goal of market dominance.
87% of teenagers use Apple
Do you mean US American teenagers, or North American teenagers, or who exactly? Surely that can’t be global?
That stat came from an article that made the rounds a few weeks ago that cited a phone survey of 1000 or so kids in one small part of the US. Small, poorly controlled sample size, so bad data.
It isn’t. As far as I know, iMessage is irrelevant in Europe.
At least here in Germany whattsapp is the standard. Apple has a phone market share if ~30%. In other countries the Facebook messenger is also quite important afaik.
But apple somehow managed to have pretty much all schools forcing their students to get an IPad. So the apple market share is increasing. I can not tell you how furious that makes me. Every parent has to buy one (or several) of those, so their children can use the most basic teaching apps, that any 100€ tablet could easily run. Poor children get an IPad on tax payers money, so I basically pay for my own children’s IPads and then a part of my tax money also flows to apple. I just wonder who (except Apple) got rich on that deal… I fxxxing hate politicians.
Telegram is the standard in Eastern Europe
Yeah, lemme edit it. USAian kids
The correct term for that is American by the way, not USAian.
Yeah, I mean I totally get the annoyance of American being overloaded for both US person and of the American continents, but USAian ain’t the solution lol that kind of sucks (hard to say, no history to it, etc)
Give me a term less ambiguous than “American” and I might use it.
American is pretty unambiguous. What are you getting it mixed up with? No one else uses it. If you hear American, do you have to run through a list of other countries asking them which they are from? Of not, it’s unambiguous.
You could argue that it shouldn’t be the pronoun for a US citizen, but that’s a different argument than it being ambiguous.
Whatever adjective makes you feel better: appropriate, apt, fitting, correct, modest, less expansive, less assuming, less imperious, less opulent, less grandiose, less egocentric, less narcissistic
Chile is American
No thanks. The USA doesn’t represent all of North and South America.
I never said it does. I just said it’s the correct word. It’s not confusing or ambiguous. Only one country uses it. It also does represent multiple states in the americas, hence the name.
If that’s the correct word to you, fine, use it. I won’t. Just because one country assumes it can be eponymous with not just one, but two entire continents, doesn’t make it right, nor do I have to agree with it.
And I guess South African should be something else, because there are other states in southern Africa? Language doesn’t really care about being “correct” with terms. It cares about being understandable. No one knows what USAian is. Everyone knows what American is. There isn’t really any debate anywhere around what to call people from the United States of America, even among other American nations.
I mean, the proof of concept is open source, so anyone can go out and make their own iMessaging service now.
I’m okay with paying for this because they need to run a service for notifications and they also have to play this cat and mouse game with Apple.
The fact that Beeper has already come up with a patch to workaround Apple’s block show’s that they’re going to work hard to keep this service running.
Edit: Beeper mini is still down, but Beeper Cloud is back up.
Yeah if Apple is willing to invest tons of money to keep using literal slaves (or at least to be intentionally ignorant about slavery in their supply chain) they aren’t going to be chivalrous about someone circumventing their intentional attempts to amp up class based marketing pressure for their apps.
Illegal Anti-Competitive / Cartel behaviour, yes??
Apple, you are only exempt-from-law UNTIL the regulators decide to do their jobs honestly.
THEN, you’re hosed.
_ /\ _
I mean, even the EU already exempted iMessage from the new rules.
Because they already follow a standard. SMS and MMS.
And with them adopting RCS? There’s nothing they can force to open iMessage.
They exempted iMessage because it’s not big in Europe. If it were as big as in the US it would’ve fallen under the DMA.
Exactly I don’t know a single person in Europe who uses or cares about iMessages. This is in the US only.
I have seen some iphone users use it with some other iphone users. But it’s very rare.
Curious, what are the most popular apps used?
Literally everyone I know uses WhatsApp. It’s probably been over a decade since I last sent or received an actual SMS (except for 2FA codes).
I’d rather not use a meta application just to send an SMS. I have WhatsApp but it’s only for communication with overseas relatives.
With RCS I don’t see the appeal of WhatsApp
And that mindset is why iMessage is popular in the US /shrug
The appeal is: 100% of your family and friends use it. A good fraction of businesses use it for customer service too. Not using it will have you left out of a pretty big chunk of social life.
WhatsApp works on Android (AOSP), while RCS only works on Google-approved versions of Android. But I am not about to use both.
WhatsApp
According to this:
- FB Messenger
- Viber
- Telegram
I use Telegram.
To be notified by my selfhosted bots
In the Netherlands: whatsapp. You can’t avoid whatsapp here. Telegram is used by a smaller fraction, but it got a bit of a bad rep during the pandemic due to primarily attracting anti-vax rioters.
TIL iMessage is still a thing.
Tentatively exempted. The decision isn’t final.
This doesn’t matter because everyone should be using signal.
It is a great app, but you cannot fit everyone into a single app.
Examples why I personally sometimes don’t want to use Signal:
- no native desktop app, just a half-baked Electron based thing
- no versions for systems other than Android and iOS
- requires phone number (common argument)
- hard to integrate bots, notifications and automatic services for the future use
- when Signal foundation do something stupid, it would mean me having to migrate all friends yet another time
Signal is super giga great, the cons list is short, but if we want everyone to use something it has to be an universal protocol, not one app.
no versions for systems other than Android and iOS
requires phone number (common argument)
Ok, those are legitimate complaints, and I suspect they’re related too. It would be nice to have a web client.
hard to integrate bots, notifications and automatic services for the future use
Personally, I’d say that’s a feature.
Signal is super giga great, the cons list is short, but if we want everyone to use something it has to be an universal protocol, not one app.
To be fair, signal is an open source protocol that anyone is free to implement. Signal protocol
To be fair, signal is an open source protocol that anyone is free to implement.
“The Signal Protocol (formerly known as the TextSecure Protocol) is a non-federated cryptographic protocol that provides end-to-end encryption for voice and instant messaging conversations[…]”
Signal is an encryption protocol, not messaging protocol. My comment was about a messaging one like XMPP or Matrix.
I wish!
With notifications turned off
Seriously. Who wants to know when people are talking to them? GO AWAY, PEOPLE. GOSH.
Honestly for most people this is a crazy level of paranoia. The US government can know the metadata of my friends birthday party organization group.
But why?
Because it’s a significant inconvenience to disable those notifications over the very unlikely possibility that some bad actor will hoover that data up, much less do something nefarious with it.
Ah, fair enough.
I realize now that I misunderstood the objection, I thought you were saying that using signal was an unreasonable level of paranoia, but I can totally see why turning off notifications seems that way.
Honestly I don’t care if the government knows who’s all going to the party. Someone’s gonna post pictures of it anyhow. My garbage data is just more stuff for them to sort through.
And I’m not gonna bother missing out on everything out of fear that the government will do what exactly with my data? The risk is so low for your average person.
You say that, but what if one of them had a friend who is a communist? Could make for some awkward conversation with the authorities at some undisclosed location in the future.
I realize now that I misunderstood the objection, I thought you were saying that using signal was an unreasonable level of paranoia, but I can totally see why turning off notifications seems that way.
Why?
https://www.macrumors.com/2023/12/06/apple-governments-surveil-push-notifications/
The US government is forcing Google and Apple to share push notification data with them. Even if the content is not sent, the metadata alone can let them know who you are talking to and when using metadata correlation.
Signal push notifications don’t contain any useful plain text data (no content, no information about who sent you a message). AFAIK the only thing you would be leaking is that you received a message on signal, and frankly that metadata is probably going to be leaked to the US government regardless of your use of push notifications.
frankly that metadata is probably going to be leaked to the US government regardless of your use of push notifications.
How?
Because your ISP and cell phone provider can tell you’re connecting to signal.
They can tell you connect to AWS when the Signal app fetches messages after a notification, they need to be able to peek into Amazon’s servers to see you’re connecting specifically to Signal
it’s not the content in the noti, it’s where your phone was connected when it received it
They get that from the carrier already
I mean… if you need to be worried about that, you really shouldn’t have a phone on you.
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how could no one have forseen the most obvious outcome in the world coming?
Saw a few comments in the initial threads about it confidently claiming Apple wouldn’t be able to keep Beeper Mini out since doing so would mess with iOS too.
Super weird to be so sure about that when they obviously didn’t know shit about it.
All they need to do is look for which Apple devices are being used as proxies and blacklist them
Not in this one, iirc they actually reverse engineered and were working off of apple libraries, rather than proxies.
Does it make a difference? They still need to use Apple accounts and spoof real devices (serial numbers, etc, I’m guessing)
From a business perspective, this was the stupidest possible investment. There is no way Apple was going to let this fly.
Why would you sink so much money into such a stupid product?
A lot of people seem to live in a delusional bubble where they don’t realize all the shitty things about apple products are by design.
Back in 1999 MSN messenger had support for chatting with AIM users, it was quickly blocked by AOL and for a while there was a game of cat and mouse between Microsoft and AOL until Microsoft quietly dropped the feature
https://archive.ph/20120526215641/http://www.news.com/2100-1023-228960.html
Yep. I wish Beeper had just stuck with the PC and iOS apps.
What’s the point of even using iMessage when there’s so many better options for messaging.
“It’s installed by default and all my friends are on it” - 50% of Americans
They don’t need to worry about the fact that the other half of Americans are not able to comfortably message them, or participate in group chats, because those are people poorer than them that they might not even want to interact with anyways. Some of them might even be not white.
This becomes even more extreme as ages become younger, with around 98% of college age students and younger having iPhones (this is obviously biased to higher income colleges in metropolitian area but the data is still useful). The peer pressure of not having an iPhone is genuinely incredible (trust me, i experience it). I have genuinely had people stop wanting to be friends with me once they learned I had an Android phone.
Apple has a monopoly so powerful that they influence the social circles of almost every grade schooler and college student in America. This is why they don’t want to give it up.
I can afford Apple products. I dont buy them, because, fuck Apple.
If someone offered me a free iPhone on the condition that I use it, I’d decline.
Same. My plan would be to sell it so I could buy something else lol
Fuck. I sent a comment with my old account.
I did get given a free iPhone! I opted not to use it.
- Terrible email client options
- Can’t rearrange your home screen beyond changing the icon order a bit
- Firefox is just Safari with a groucho marx fake nose and glasses
- Notifications are laughable by comparison
- Share options are laughable by comparison
- Camera is supposed to be better than any Android device ever invented, yet somehow managed to take blurry photos ~50% of the time so I’d end up taking 6 photos in every situation to make sure I got one where you could use it. I may be an edge case here as I’m mostly taking photos of name plates and technical documents where crisp detail is super important… iOS just wanted to make pretty colours and boke the world, even if it meant half a name plate was in focus and the back was artificially blurred for that sweet Instagram professional photographer look.
I have genuinely had people stop wanting to be friends with me once they learned I had an Android phone.
Fuck those horrible people. They don’t deserve to be anyone’s friends with such a shitty attitude.
You have just described 98% of Americans.
The peer pressure of not having an iPhone is genuinely incredible (trust me, i experience it).
I wanna talk a bit about where this comes from. There are what, two or three models of iPhone that you can buy off the shelf right now?
Think about grade school kids and their first phone. What do they get? Well, parents almost expect them to break the phone. If it’s an iPhone, then it’s one of the three, expensive models. If it’s an Android, it’s probably a cheap piece of shit (because on Android those are an option). It’s certainly not a Pixel or the latest Samsung.
So grade school kids learn that iPhone = quality, and Android = cheap pieces of shit. And even if at the high end Android is better, young people by and large don’t experience that. And it sticks with them. Apple did a similar strategy with putting Apple computers into every grade school in the 1980s.
And Apple is doing everything they can to reinforce this marketing and peer pressure, especially the iMessage thing. The only reason the iMessage “issue” exists is because Apple wants it to exist. They want the $700 cosmetic for chat to continue to exist. It’s a large part of their business model.
Most of my tech friends bought their babies iPad pros. As in, they crawled on them. I was told this will help them become programmers.
As an adult with Android, I can say this is real. I was on Safari in Africa and everybody else with me had iPhones. They were airdropping pictures to each other and I was reduced to begging for somebody to email them to me.
We were on a tour and the guide had an iPhone, but we have Android phones. He took some photos and said “Oh if you had an iPhone I could just Airdrop them to you” and we said “If you had an Android phone you could Nearby Share them to us”.
Then there was much explaining about how Airdrop was better because it works with iPhones, and Nearby Share is no good because it won’t work with iPhones.
Couldn’t quite get them to see the irony about that complaint.
I have never had an issue with messaging anyone in iMessage, regardless of what platform they are using. Serious question: is there something I am missing out on with iMessage that warrants investigating alternatives?
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That’s interesting about the reactions. I’m an Android (Pixel) user, and I swear when using the standard SMS app on my phone, from some iOS users I see their reactions as an emoji, while from others it does the “[user] liked your message” thing. Could it also be related to the version of iOS that’s being used on the other end?
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So… What your telling us is that it’s bad. Not good.
because incompatible. It won’t work on any device. Except those of that cult. That cult whose leader killed himself after magically getting a a new liver somewhere in Asia.
You know, donor organs for which there are waiting lists of months and months.
Which was totally not weird and surely 100% legal and all. Just fine.
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The ability to message people who don’t own the same phone as you.
I’m not sure why you think I can’t do that.
iMessage can only send SMS messages to non Apple phones, which suck. And if you have friends in other countries get crazy expensive and suck even more.
I actually had no idea anyone still charged money for SMS
Also if you’re in another country almost everyone charges for roaming sms but you can use messaging apps on WiFi for free.
You also cannot call someone who has a different name or model phone as you.
If you don’t have a blue bubble on your friends phones, they will bully you until you take an AR-15 to school and kill everyone.
Either that, or suicide. Blue bubbles are a leading cause of suicide among tweens and teens in the US.
I have Andriod and my wife’s got iPhone. IMessages don’t deliver… or deliver hours later. Images don’t make it… or make it xna they are potato.
You aren’t sending iMessages. You’re sending text messages, and vice versa. Old school SMS and MMS (from the days of the first cameraphones…the standard hasn’t changed much since then) are the best common language between your phones.
Google/Android support RCS, the open modern protocol to replace SMS/MMS, and Apple is being sluggish to implement. Apple also supports iMessage, the default enhanced language to replace SMS/MMS, but that’s a closed protocol, and as such only supports Apple.
Sent from wefwef for iOS, but I’d still say Apple are the assholes here. The only reason I even have a damn iPhone is because most of the people I exchange pictures/videos with, and the people they exchange pictures and video with, happen to use iPhones. So there’s no incentive for all of them to switch to a third-party platform for just me.
My mom had the same problem. She has a 6 year old iPhone and sometimes my messages are delivered days after I send them. Happened a lot last year…
Yeah, like session and signal
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Whoever gave it 24 hours gets a medal from me
Meanwhile, Whatsapp continues to be the most used messaging app in the world, with no sms or any other sort of fallback if you don’t have an internet connection.
Yes. But America wants their blue message balloons. How else do you know who you need to ignore? /s
whatsapp is spyware from facebook, it’s supposedly end-to-end encrypted but that’s worthless coming from a company that goes through embarassing databreaches every other week…at minimum
Spoiler - it’s working again. Might be teething problems for a new service.
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I literally sent a message right before posting.
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They did eventually ~fix it though~. (Only about 6 hours ago).
Check your app store for an update to the app.
Edit: it’s only partially fixed as of right now.
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Ah, yeah, looks like they got it working but only for some accounts:
And…we might have spoken a bit too soon. It’s not working for all accounts yet. More work to do, we’re going to sleep now but back at it tomorrow.
That’s Beeper Cloud, not Beeper Mini.
