• deweydecibel@lemmy.world
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      9 months ago

      Even the independent or non-profit media sources that have a lot of credibility and seem generally pretty chill will fall back on this every now and again.

      You see it anytime you hear people talking about division or hyper partisanship “on the rise” in that clinical, abstract way that sounds objective. It’s always in a discussion about the current state of “discourse”, and it’s nearly always remarked on like the story is the spike in “disagreements”, and not about what the disagreements are actually about.This pervasive idea that somehow people being upset about the current state of affairs and the rise of actual fascism is some kind of aberration.

      Like “Gee, people sure are arguing a lot these days. Boy howdy, they’re sure a feisty bunch, aren’t they?” Women literally had their right to an abortion taken away from them, we had armed fascists storming our God damn capital on the word of a President and current candidate, we had thousands die to a preventable illness because of rampant misinformation and right wing individualist propaganda, and still you hear this tone that people being really angry right now is weird.

      Fucking Kurkusagst, a channel I have a lot of respect for, just the other day dropped a video blaming social media on the mounting political and social divisions in our country, and implying all will be well if we just stopped using big media platforms. Social media is definitely part of it, but anyone seriously acting like it’s the primary reason people are fucking pissed right now has to be some well-off straight white man, because the rest of us have some pretty damn good reasons to be pissed. I don’t need Twitter or Reddit or Facebook to make me angry, I just need to be paying the fuck attention.

      It’s insulting to every women, every LGBT person, every non-white person, and every single person struggling to make a living right now to imply “social media is just getting us riled up.”

    • Mango@lemmy.world
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      9 months ago

      It doesn’t really seem that way. I only ever hear about how evil Republicans are and how starving and precious the Democrats are. I think you’re all fucking stupid for thinking stances on subjects need to be clumped together in categories. I want universal healthcare, basic income, and the right to carry a gun for the next time police come to wreck my life over a false accusation made by a violent asshole!

      • zcd@lemmy.ca
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        9 months ago

        Do things typically go well for people who use firearms against police? Is this some sort of crazy shit that I’m too Canadian to understand?

        • Flying Squid@lemmy.world
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          9 months ago

          Very definitely not if you’re black. Two famous cases of police murder- Breonna Taylor and Philando Castile involved legal gun ownership and use. The former involved her boyfriend shooting at police because he thought they were home invaders. They didn’t care.

            • Mango@lemmy.world
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              9 months ago

              The world is not normal or healthy. I’ve done absolutely nothing wrong and been punished by police and schools repeatedly. My record is a lie.

              If I’d done the shit they do, it would be called slander, kidnapping, and torture.

      • Fedizen@lemmy.world
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        9 months ago

        You ever read one of those heartwarming stories about a woman who paid somebody’s medical debt?

      • Cowbee@lemm.ee
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        9 months ago

        The Democrats and the Republicans are both on the side of Capital, the Republicans just want fascism as well. The left is the side that is demonized by the media just as much as the fascists.

        • Mango@lemmy.world
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          9 months ago

          Everyone is demonizing and censoring everyone and playing innocent. Fuck literally everyone who uses labels and uses filters to suppress others. Why can’t we just sit here and argue about the actual subject points individually like decent goddamn human beings?!

          • grue@lemmy.world
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            9 months ago

            Why can’t we just sit here and argue… like decent goddamn human beings?!

            This you?

            I think you’re all fucking stupid

            • Mango@lemmy.world
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              9 months ago

              Include the rest of the comment obviously. I’m done replying to someone who’s making a blatant spin.

              • Donjuanme@lemmy.world
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                9 months ago

                It isn’t blatant spin, it’s you got called out for arguing against your own positions. If you are genuine you’d do some introspection.

          • themeatbridge@lemmy.world
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            9 months ago

            Everyone calling you stupid and telling you to shove your stupidity up your ass is not censorship. You aren’t being suppressed, you are being evaluated, and if that makes you feel like you should shut up, then the free market of ideas is working.

            • Mango@lemmy.world
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              9 months ago

              Yeah no, that’s all fine. We’re talking about Nexus mods here though. What they did was censor.

              • TheTetrapod@lemmy.world
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                9 months ago

                And they completely have that right, seeing as they own the website? Where did this come from? What are you on?

                • Mango@lemmy.world
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                  9 months ago

                  Yeah, and Facebook similarly has the right to their mass influence and control over who sees what around election time. I think they shouldn’t have that right though. Facebook is not a person. Companies aren’t people. Their capacity for doing damage should be open to audit. There’s a reason your food requires a list of ingredients.

              • sousmerde{retardatR}@lemm.ee
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                9 months ago

                that’s all fine

                It never is, sry for the “reddit” hivemind, corners of the Internet are different as you know, 🤷‍♂️.
                And lemmy.world censored lemmygrad.ml and hexbear and others by defederating with them, as well as enterprises and the government.

                • TheSanSabaSongbird@lemdro.id
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                  9 months ago

                  That’s not censorship. Both lemmygrad and hexbear are alive and well and freely available to anyone interested in what they have to say. By your definition I’m “censoring” Fox News by not watching it.

                • Mango@lemmy.world
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                  9 months ago

                  Honestly, that’s a complication that needs to be considered and can be used against us if we do the regulating wrong. There’s so many people in here who just have a side and wanna rage against me because I’m not bleating their tune. This isn’t about gayness or gay aversion at all. My problem is that the avenues for free speech may as well be abandoned because nobody goes there and exposure is determined by money. The Internet is the best we have and it’s being used against truth. My bone is to pick with censorship itself and more specifically when it’s done with large audiences.

          • Cowbee@lemm.ee
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            9 months ago

            That’s more of a centrist take. It makes perfect sense for trans allies to demonize transphobes, for example. Nobody is advocating against constructive conversation, but sometimes views are genuinely rooted in malice and thus cannot be reasoned with.

            • Mango@lemmy.world
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              9 months ago

              Keep your labels to yourself, and no it doesn’t make sense to demonize, ever. Take literally myself for example. I’m into futas and whatnot, but lots of gay dudes genuinely freak me out. It’s not the gayness, but some other creepy shit that comes packaged with it. I was literally stalked in the shower by multiple dudes in the homeless shelter and staff did nothing. I had a dude in jail who convinced the COs to make him my celly because he thought I would hook up with him and when I denied him he became violent about it. This is just the two most strand out examples. Gay dudes actually creep me out. You gonna demonize me for that?

              • Cowbee@lemm.ee
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                9 months ago

                I’m not sure you want to take a middle ground between being transphobic and being a trans ally, as that’s just transphobia. The transphobes should, in fact, be shunned and demonized for being bigots.

                Homophobia ain’t cool either.

                • Mango@lemmy.world
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                  9 months ago

                  Your problem is that you’re calling it what is not to have an easier time ridiculing and sounding cool. Malice and fear are not the same. Don’t give the malice camp allies from the fearful camp.

          • Donjuanme@lemmy.world
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            9 months ago

            But you’re the one who brought in assigned labels to begin with?

            That’s why we can’t “just sit here and argue”, because you’d eventually end up arguing against yourself. Thanks for cutting out the rest of the loop the “but my free speech” people would normally need to be guided through before the conclusion was reached.

          • Flying Squid@lemmy.world
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            9 months ago

            Weirdly, most people I hear about being “censored” are able to tell everyone in the world how censored they are.

      • ogoflowgo@lemmy.world
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        9 months ago

        Lol! Sometimes these days I think I’m in, The Truman Show. I mean I have to be, right?.. This can’t be what the culmination of human evolution has created. It’s all too implausible to be true.

  • Elliott@lemmy.world
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    9 months ago

    I mean if you’re still supporting Republicans you’re kind of the problem.

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        9 months ago

        So do you just wake up as a curmudgeonly dingus, or does it take a few hours of the day for you to get like that?

    • Philote@lemmy.ml
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      9 months ago

      What chides me the most is the underlying origin of the Republican Party, the very much needed fiscal conservatism, is now missing. It’s been traded for saboteurs rigging things to fail so they can gut chunks of government.

      • Daft_ish@lemmy.world
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        9 months ago

        Was “fiscal conservatism” the origin of the Republican party?

        From wiki:

        The new Republican Party envisioned modernizing the United States, emphasizing expanded banking, more railroads and factories, and giving free western land to farmers (“free soil”) as opposed to letting slave owners buy up the best properties. It vigorously argued that free market labor was superior to slavery and was the very foundation of civic virtue and true republicanism; this was the “Free Soil, Free Labor, Free Men” ideology.

        Fiscal conservatism is just a GOP invented MacGuffin to give them cover when they employ their advisorial antigovernance strategy. Every time we put a conservative in charge they blow the deficit up and funnel money to their backers.

        Then they cry fiscal conservatism when a DEM takes power and say we need to cut social programs. Fiscal conservatism is a lie people continue to believe in because they hate anyone getting a break that isn’t themselves. Themselves or wealthy white men who they project their own ambitions onto.

    • chakan2@lemmy.world
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      9 months ago

      If you still believe the Democrats are going to come through on universal healthcare or free college, you’re also part of the problem.

      • Lord_ToRA@lemmy.world
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        9 months ago

        Democrats’ only real incentive is to be better than Republicans. Since that bar is so low, it makes it easier to make much less progress and still be more electable than the Republican alternative. Also, because it’s important to get elected and garnering at least some Republican votes is often necessary, then they have more incentive to play it safe.

        If Republicans got their heads out of their asses and started making progress, instead of pushing for regression, then Democrats would have more incentive to push harder on their policies.

        • TheDoozer@lemmy.world
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          9 months ago

          I feel like if our voting system wasn’t skewed so heavily toward Republicans (between the Electoral College, gerrymandering being legal, and a general “states can run their elections however they want” to allow Republican-controlled states to make whatever changes they want to favor themselves), we’d see a lot more progress. Instead, it’s harder and harder for liberals to vote, the votes count for less and less, and we’re barely scraping to just vote out fascists (if possible).

          Fix the voting system, and we might get something worthwhile out of Democrats other than undoing some of their predecessors terrible actions and giving just enough to their supporters to whet their appetite without ever leaving them satisfied.

        • chakan2@lemmy.world
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          9 months ago

          Democrats’ only real incentive is to be better than Republicans.

          I disagree with that…their only incentive these days is to NOT be Republicans. They’ve taken up traditional right leaning republican policy at this point and are getting away with it. For example: The ACA is terrible, we NEED universal healthcare, however, the D’s are content letting big health insurance continue to rape the US. The D’s have also strongly backed off climate protections, and honestly, it’s too late for climate change so that’s maybe moot.

          The point is, they don’t have any incentive to actually push policy…they just need to point and say “Republicans are bad” and the donations roll in.

          • Lord_ToRA@lemmy.world
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            9 months ago

            By “better than Republicans” I mean, not pushing bigoted or fascist policies the same way the Republicans have been. That’s an extremely low bar.

        • hglman@lemmy.world
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          9 months ago

          Wait so your plan is to wait for the republican party to become progressive?

          • Lord_ToRA@lemmy.world
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            9 months ago

            Wait before voting 3rd party? Yes. Our voting system needs to change before that is a viable option.

              • Lord_ToRA@lemmy.world
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                9 months ago

                I am voting for people who support changing it. Ranked choice voting is definitely being pushed where I live, which would be great because many Democrats have to use their votes in a way that does not accurately represent their actual preferences.

                Additionally, since Republicans have a closed primary (which is scummy as fuck) many Democrats have to register as Republican just to have any say in who will run our government.

              • Lord_ToRA@lemmy.world
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                9 months ago

                Crazy how you’re so wrong with your considerable experience seeing a joke in the mirror every day.

          • Cowbee@lemm.ee
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            9 months ago

            Dems and Reps aren’t the only groups that can get things done, and I’m not talking about voting third party.

            Electoralism is purely harm reduction for leftists, no leftist policy will get through in a 2-party Capitalist state. Instead, change must happen at the grassroots level.

            Organize, unionize, protest, all that good stuff.

      • dangblingus@lemmy.world
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        9 months ago

        No one is deluding themselves into thinking that will happen. The alternative, voting for Trump, however, is unacceptable.

        • chakan2@lemmy.world
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          Lol…sure…lol. They burned Bernie at the stake for suggesting those things.

          • USAONE@lemmy.world
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            9 months ago

            Progressives have one problem, they don’t have any clue how to fund their wild ideas. The best they can do is say tax the rich but really they mean tax the middle class.

      • USAONE@lemmy.world
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        9 months ago

        Several blue states have free college now, including California. Healthcare is tougher because it isn’t run by the state but a private for profit industry.

        • voidMainVoid@lemmy.world
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          Agreed that it’s harder, but that “private for-profit industry” shouldn’t exist. It needs to be abolished. Democrats loooooove their Obamacare, but all Obama did was make that industry mandatory. That’s the opposite of abolishing it.

      • AA5B@lemmy.world
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        9 months ago

        I believe Democrats will at least make proposals to improve healthcare coverage and free college. More importantly, there has been significant progress over the last four years or so.

        • Gumus@lemmy.world
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          9 months ago

          I think you’re thinking of “intercontinental” (between continents), rather than “transcontinental” (across a continent)

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              9 months ago

              Anyone can do that mistake.

              Look on the brigside, if it was a conservarive, that person would think that the trans in transcontinental would mean something “woke”

            • Ann Archy@lemmy.world
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              9 months ago

              The important thing is you corrected someone. You all right in my book. You good people. Salt of the earth as far as I’m god damned concerned! And I’m VERY concerned.

      • AngryCommieKender@lemmy.world
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        9 months ago

        I mean, I would love that, but unfortunately it will be easier and cheaper for the US to adopt electric airplanes than trying to build several tens of thousands of miles of high speed rail to create even 2 transcontinental lines.

        • AdrianTheFrog@lemmy.world
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          9 months ago

          Electric airplanes don’t exist, and making one long distance while still being fast isn’t feasible with current battery technology. Battery technology is rapidly advancing though.

          And yet, China has already made enough high speed rail to go fully across the United States 10 times, East to West. (Which is predicted to increase to 16.5 US widths (43k miles), in 12 years!)

          • AngryCommieKender@lemmy.world
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            9 months ago

            https://partsolutions.com/engineering-an-electric-jet-engine/

            Electric jet turbines exist, this dude just followed the designs that MIT made. They just need investment, and aren’t cheaper than jet fuel.

            Also China has laid a lot of rail on their east coast. You’ll notice that they aren’t laying high speed rail into the center or western portions of China, but then authoritarian countries can do infrastructure projects easier than democratic countries.

            • AdrianTheFrog@lemmy.world
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              9 months ago

              I actually watched that video when it came out. You misunderstand how it works, it actually burns butane gas and produces carbon dioxide. The reason he calls it electric is that it uses a fan instead of a turbine to speed up the air before the combustion.

              The reason why we can’t make electric planes isn’t because we don’t have the engines, its because batteries are just too heavy to fit on something that needs such light weight and high energy.

              And if you want to know the real reason why China can make so much rail, RM Transit on Youtube has some great videos on the topic, iirc it was mainly because other countries contract way too much out, work at very small scales, and stop and start construction often, preventing skill and momentum from building up. And in the U.S. general just bad management is another big factor.

        • Ann Archy@lemmy.world
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          9 months ago

          The US has about the same chances of becoming a functional democracy at this point as building the first intergalactic super highway.

          • ⸻ Ban DHMO 🇦🇺 ⸻@aussie.zone
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            9 months ago

            I always find it funny when the US is called “the centre of the free world” or the “defender of democracy” when they don’t even defend their own democracy. They need to make some massive changes:

            • preferential voting (should slowly erode the two party system)
            • taking executive power away from the president and giving it to Congress (i.e. having an executive government of ministers and a Prime Minister)
            • having Congress appoint the president based on merit instead of popular vote (since the last point gives them ceremonial duty only)
            • either ban or severely cap political advertising
            • improve education standards for the poorest Americans
            • abolish conscription
            • misinformation laws (though a very difficult topic to cover)
            • put Donald Trump in jail - he’s done the crime, make him do the time - in a real democracy the rich can’t just get away with serious crimes
            • presidential pardons should be removed
            • PhlubbaDubba@lemm.ee
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              9 months ago

              Here’s my take on how the US could fix itself up,

              • House expanded to 1 seat per state for every 50k permanent residents of that state, arranged in districts of no less than 5 and no more than 9 representatives allocated along municipal and zip code divisions, then along shortest split line divisions where that results in especially population packed districts.

              • Senate expanded to 27 senators per state, 21 senators to every county level division with a larger population than any state, and 15 senators to every indigenous nation (even if they don’t have a reservation) and labor union of 5,000 or more members.

              • House elects the ministers of the executive, including the chief executive, as well as the next four “back-up” ministers who receive the same briefings as the minister themselves, Senate elects the president and shadow ministers to each department, again all who get the same info as the appointed minister.

              • The “president” has the power to call the Senate to a veto vote on legislation that’s passed the house, which has to pass by the nearest margin to the passing margin in the house rounded up.

              • The “president” also gets the power of pardon still BUT the house can by simple majority veto any individual person in any given group of pardons, and can also veto awards presented by the “president”

              • All elections take place every 4 years all at once, no primaries no divergent election years at state and municipal level no shorter term lengths, if it needs to be replaced more than every 4th year make it an appointed position, congressfolks are elected every 4th year, senators are elected every 12th to fit to the scheme.

              • All elections are multi-seat STAR

              • Drafts are banned unless in the case where the US is being directly invaded or legally considered to have been invaded via mutual defense treaty, and only if Congress and the Senate in a combined session vote to authorize it after 5% or more of available forces to the theater in question have been lost in a span of less than a month.

              • Constitutional amendments have to be proposed and approved by different bodies, if the House and Senate jointly propose, the States have to approve, if the States propose, a national referendum has to approve, and if a national referendum proposed a combined session of the House and Senate has to approve, if the body proposing does so by simple majority, it has to be approved by a 2/3rds majority, and if it’s proposed by a 2/3rds majority, it only has to pass by a simple majority to be approved.

              • Not misinformation laws, but false expert laws, presenting of information as if you are an authority on a subject without possessing a license from the government or a nationally accredited organization of the experts you are accused of pushing yourself off as having the authority of or superior authority to. Would go a long way in going after fake medicine at least, if the US press ever formed a licensing organization it’d also allow prosecution of fake news outlets without actually posing a threat to press freedoms since the press itself can protect anyone by just granting them a license

              • Adoption of IB education model nation wide, year round schooling, multi-teacher classrooms, and rotating classrooms, abolition of private education below the university level at least, and rotating teachers among all schools within commuting distance of them. Also, no funding schools with any local taxes, it all comes from the federal level, only thing that is allowed to change locally is the inclusion of indigenous language and culture classes specific to the local indigenous nations of the area.

              • Not just locking Trump up, but establishing a specific trial process that deals entirely with illegal acts carried out by public officials that’s rigidly built to be free of influence from anyone who could stand to benefit personally from the results of the trial going one way or the other. Also the same thing but for cops specifically and with undercover agents in the police.

              I’ve got a whole bunch more of these

                • PhlubbaDubba@lemm.ee
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                  9 months ago

                  To a certain extent that is basically what I just proposed, the only thing kept over is the Haudenosaunee Confederation style of how a matter is decided on, arguably it actually conforms more since the second house being able to propose a matter is a significant deviation from how the Haudenosaunee do it, for them the roll of the second house is for the smaller member nations to be able to have their say after the two biggest nations have already come to agreement on the issue at hand, and to be able to send a matter back to them to reconsider so that the big guys can’t just gang up on the smaller nations.

                  Historia Civilis did a pretty sweet write up of it all and honestly the Senate being a conditional block as opposed to a generator of legislation on its own feels more like how a “bicameral” legislative system should actually be designed to work properly.

              • ⸻ Ban DHMO 🇦🇺 ⸻@aussie.zone
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                9 months ago

                I like these ideas but the Senate electing the shadow government wouldn’t be very effective if the same party held power in the House and Senate. However, I do think that recognition of a Shadow Government is important, given that it has access to all the same information as the government.

                • PhlubbaDubba@lemm.ee
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                  9 months ago

                  They’re the official shadow cabinet so that the opposition parties don’t take credit for anything they aren’t doing just because they have a guy who they swear would be doing a better job.

  • Alien Nathan Edward@lemm.ee
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    9 months ago

    the media doesn’t think they’re equal, the media is elevating slavery because they’re owned by the people who will end up owning the slaves

    • just_change_it@lemmy.world
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      9 months ago

      Spoilers: We’re already slave-lite. Owned by our landlords, credit bureaus, state and federal government (taxes) and education finance system (immutable loans).

      It’s nowhere near as bad as real slavery was. The goal is to make us earn as much as possible for those that own us though under the guise of “freedom”. Freedom is dictatorship. Freedom is being controlled. Freedom is doing the right thing as prescribed by those in power and their interpretation of law which always seems to side with those who already have the money and power.

      • set_secret@lemmy.world
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        9 months ago

        “1984” by George Orwell.

        Key tenets include:

        1. Big Brother Is Watching You: This is the omnipresent government surveillance.

        2. War Is Peace: This paradoxical slogan highlights the manipulation of truth.

        3. Freedom Is Slavery: Suggests that individual freedom is an illusion.

        4. Ignorance Is Strength: Encourages the populace to accept false narratives.

        5. Thoughtcrime: The idea that thinking against the Party is criminal.

        6. Doublethink: Holding two contradictory beliefs simultaneously.

        7. Newspeak: Language designed to limit freedom of thought.

        8. The Party’s absolute control over truth and reality.

        Seems like a how to guide for the right imo.

      • varjen@lemmy.world
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        According to the 13th amendment you’re already an actual slave state except the slaves are called prisoners.

    • matter@lemmy.world
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      This is literally the platform of right-populism. “Wasn’t it good in the 50s when a single income for a guy with an associates was enough to support a family in a life of comfort, and a summer job could pay for university? That’s why women shouldn’t be in the workforce and black people shouldn’t have rights.”

      • EldritchFeminity@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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        9 months ago

        You forgot the part where they also give these people an easy target for the miseries in their lives.

        “Do you hate your life? Do you wish you were living in a mansion, eating grapes lowered into your mouth by a servant, instead of working 50 hours a week? Well, have we got a deal for you! Just try Blaming A Minority, and all your problems will disappear! But wait, act now, and we’ll throw in a second minority, free! Just pay shipping and handling, and vote for our fascist candidate”

  • solarvector@lemmy.zip
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    9 months ago

    Hey that’s not fair, as part of fascism they also want healthcare (for the right people) and education (that reinforces their prejudices).

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    Haha don’t forget moderates.

    “We should listen to both sides, I mean nazis and fascists had good ideas too!”

    • Prophet@lemmy.world
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      I think it’s a mistake to call them moderates. The “moderates” in the US have gone to great lengths to brand themselves this way, but really they are neoliberals who have bought into every aspect of conservatism except maybe the most depraved social views from the alt right, which they excuse as “just an opinion”. They love to play both sides and act like they have some moral/intellectual high ground because they consider “both sides” when really they are already waist deep into right-wing ideology.

      • madcaesar@lemmy.world
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        Exactly. Whenever this conversation comes up I ask for people to give me Republican policies presented and pushed that aimed to help the middle class??

        Other than tax cuts for the rich the Republican party has ZERO ideas on how to tackle anything that would help the average American. Healthcare? Nothing. Gun control? Nothing. Climate change? Nothing. Infrastructure? Nothing. Jobs? Trickle down give tax cuts to the rich that’ll solve it! Sure it hasn’t worked the last 40 years now but just more tax cuts for billionaires bro!

        • Ann Archy@lemmy.world
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          It’s insane there’s even a handful of people who think republicans are anything but self serving fascists that would step over corpses to enrich themselves even marginally at the expense of anything and anyone else.

          Yet here we are, it’s an actual debate, it’s like children who refuse to admit they stole that candy from the store… Children. Vile, fat, rich, spoiled, semi-conscious, thoroughly uneducated, self entitled, racist, backwards, moronic children. Hundreds of millions of them.

      • Ann Archy@lemmy.world
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        I propose “interlopers”. If you’re not against the fascist regime, you ARE the fascist regime.

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        As a moderate, this isn’t true in the least. People like that aren’t actually moderate, they are just masking.

        Every moderate I know is currently voting Democrat because it’s obvious the Republican party has gone off the rails. The crazy stuff isn’t the part we listen to, and they have stopped backing the non-crazy part.

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            I consider all politicians corrupt, but he’s probably less than most. Their politics are money and power. I don’t think many politicians at that level genuinely buy into either party, except for insofar as it gets them power.

            • Prophet@lemmy.world
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              Sure, but if you give these “moderates” a seemingly reasonable Republican candidate who puts up a good front and who also won’t say the quiet parts out loud, they will vote for that candidate every time. E.g., if Jeb Bush or Mitt Romney ran again, they’d vote for them in a heartbeat. Then those candidates will do almost all the same things Trump did, just without drawing attention to it, such as lowering taxes on the wealthy, installing ultra conservative or big-business friendly judges, starving social services, removing regulations, etc.

              Moderates have no principles, so this is always okay with them.

                • Prophet@lemmy.world
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                  I haven’t distorted any argument you made. You provided a very fence-sitty statement “all politicians are bad” just like all the other “enlightened centrists”, then proceeded to accuse me of lying and not making good arguments when you yourself are unable to make actual arguments, critically about this subject, or otherwise bring something to the table. Is that a typical pattern for you?

    • Ann Archy@lemmy.world
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      If two people disagree, then they are both equally right. Like in the case of rape! There’s two sides to it after all…

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      Didn’t nazis make the trains run on time? Those Democrats should be all over this

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          They more or less tried to rebuild every part of the society the way a butthurt drunk corporal would consider best.

          Ah, and their economic successes were in large part result of a few Ponzi schemes and just theft. That “restoration of economy” of theirs wasn’t sustainable, because nobody would give them any more money.

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              They were led by a group of people, some very much noblemen and officers, and some well-educated and competent people.

              The criterion for success was being defined by the corporal, because in some sense German conservatives of the Weimar republic times turned pessimist of their nobility, their upper and middle class, and, a bit like Russian narodniks would look for rebirth in the way Russian peasants lived (knowing nothing of that), they were looking for rebirth in the propaganda picture of some patriotic and depressed corporal, and they’ve found one.

          • Flying Squid@lemmy.world
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            It’s amazing what a boost your economy can get when you steal the property of millions of people after shipping them off to concentration camps.

            It’s probably the Republican plan to end the national debt.

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              I’m not sure, but I think I’ve read that various fraudulent schemes built on the German state’s remaining credibility made a bigger input.

              Murder of sick people, sterilization of gays, concentration camps, robbery and murder of minorities and whoever else - it was all not as much for practical gain as it was for making robbery and murder normalized in their society. Nazis were really philosophy-driven. Their state was an attempt at deconstructing (can’t find another word) morality, “return” to a picture of some barbaric tribe living off conquest. Where the “weak” would perish and the “strong” would drive evolution.

              Eroding culture and morality was their intention, as a means to turn Germany into some tribe which will conquer many parts of the world and change it forever. They were very appreciative not only of their ancestors in late Antiquity, but also of Mongol, Turkic invaders in history.

              That doesn’t quite work the same way as a corporal would imagine, though.

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          Almost like they kicked significant parts of the railway work force out and sent them to death camps in the name of opening those jobs up for mediocre “ubermensch”

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    One side wants to break up families, abolish free speech, trans kids and make everyone attention slaves to big companies. The other side just wants freedom and happiness

    (I dont accually believe this, just how the opposite side would make the same tweet) You cant believe the world is this black and white 💀

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      But how would banning books equate to free speech? I suppose there aren’t straight justifications for everything, that’s just part of it.

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    Out of the loop: what’s there about women not being able to vote or own property? Thanks!

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      Republicans have begun to resurrect the idea of household head exclusive enfranchisement, IE only the family patriarch can vote

      I’m sure it’s just a complete coincidence that this policy mostly disenfranchises women, younger voters, and renters, all of whom lean democrat.

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      9 months ago

      You can’t support the right without supporting their fascism, regardless of how you try to qualify it

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        Oh yes you “can!” Just you try voting third party (i.e not actually supporting the republicans) and telling anyone about it, dems will say you supported the right, reps will say you supported the left, all the while you supported neither, and somehow simultaneously supported both from the POV of the “you have to do what I want” people.

        Edit: See?

        • ChickenLadyLovesLife@lemmy.world
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          dems will say you supported the right, reps will say you supported the left, all the while you supported neither

          The fundamental core of the GOP strategy is to disenfranchise voters. When you vote for a hopeless third-party candidate you are disenfranchising yourself - i.e. doing the GOP’s work for them.

          • sleepy555@lemmy.world
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            Aren’t people tired of voting for a party because they dislike the other one though? You’re disenfranchising yourself by doing that. I just want to vote for a party because I actually like them.

        • michaelmrose@lemmy.world
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          It’s mathematically impossible for a third party to win because they split the vote with whichever of the major parties they are most like. Since this is so you are in effect voting for whomever they are most unalike. EG greens are voting for Republicans Libertarians might as well be voting for Democrats.

          You would do better to stand better folks in the primary of the party that is closest to the third party or move for something like approval voting that would make it possible to vote for them in good conscience instead of pretending like you don’t know how our electoral system works.

        • Lord_ToRA@lemmy.world
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          Voting 3rd party is only a worthwhile attempt if you were planning on voting Republican. If you are even slightly leaning towards voting Democrat, then removing that possible vote for Democrats would only empower the Republicans.

        • Donkter@lemmy.world
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          Voting for a third party is a vote for apathy. No matter which side you lean towards voting for a third party shows that you don’t actually care about the outcome. It feels nice, and I’m sure you proudly proclaim that you’re the only one trying to do anything, but it’s a vote for apathy.

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        This is the same argument that led to the red scare in the 50s. Want to unionize your workplace? That’s not the only union you want! Want to bring an anti consumerism message? Literally communism! It’s much easier to group undesirables together so you can marginalize the libertarians, evangelicals and business class in one fell swoop by labeling them Fascist

            • FontMasterFlex@lemmy.world
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              oh no no no. don’t you see? they are right, they don’t HAVE to elaborate. But in turn if YOU don’t explain your point of view, you’re a fascist in hiding. IN fact, even if you DO lay out your argument, it’s wrong just because they say so. Is this your first day on the internet? heavy on the /s

            • Syrc@lemmy.world
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              If you vote for a Republican, you’re effectively supporting fascism. That’s what American politics has turned into.

              That argument holds ground in some European countries where left and right parties are actually left and right. In a country like the US where the left is right and the right is fascism, they did the grouping themselves.

              • Estiar@lemmy.world
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                I’d like to point out that the political compass is a really bad construct for understanding politics. Ideology is made from smaller factors such as economics, tradition, religion, intellectualism, and other institutions. Fascism came out of socialist circles, as did Nazism. The modern political compass came out of the cold war and helped both sides justify themselves: the communists who wanted to be as far from the Nazis as possible and the Americans who wanted to be seen as the voice of the moderates. (Don’t look at the Molotov-Ribbontrop pact or Jim Crow)

                The Republican party promotes Right wing populism. Elements of that include autarky, isolationism and conservatism.

                Fascism is a very specific ideology, and while the leader of the Republican party Trump has some things in common with it, he is not on the war path like a true fascist would be. He is less imperialist than previous presidents. He wants to pull out from NATO and abandon the Kurdish people in Syria. Again, Trump is a populist. He did not come out of socialist circles preaching an anti-elitist message.

                • Syrc@lemmy.world
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                  Depends on what you mean by “being on a war path”. Imperialism isn’t a strict requirement for fascism, and he’s very much on a national war path. Wikipedia describes it like this:

                  Fascism is a far-right, authoritarian, ultranationalist political ideology and movement, characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation or race, and strong regimentation of society and the economy.

                  I think the only part he might not fit is “strong regimentation of economy”.

        • sleepy555@lemmy.world
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          You’re 100% right. You’ll still get downvoted and so will I for saying this, because people vote with their emotions here.

          • Arelin@lemmy.zip
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            I don’t think downvotes should be a thing at all tbh. Just silences discussion.

            If a comment is actively hateful and/or breaks rules you’d report it instead, as is the case in alot of Lemmy instances.

            • FontMasterFlex@lemmy.world
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              right? if you say something the lef… i mean lemmy users don’t like, you just get SHOUTED down instead. cause if you screetch loud enough it makes it true.

            • Syrc@lemmy.world
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              It’s useful for gauging the general opinion on a subject, or for “exposing” fake affirmations without having to dig comments.

              It does bring its issues, but I think the pros outweigh the cons. Plus it’s not like Reddit where you just have the balance, people indeed have the tendency to ignore/comment snarkily on “-5” comments, but if they see a “+10/-15” they often realize it’s a controversial opinion and might weigh in.

            • Flying Squid@lemmy.world
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              How is anyone on Lemmy silenced by downvotes? Just basic feelings of shame because some people on the internet didn’t like what they said?

              • Arelin@lemmy.zip
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                People have a tendency to pile on and dismiss any opinion or comment with -1 votes or less instead of properly responding to it, like what’s happening just above this comment. Turns the place into an echo chamber.

                • Flying Squid@lemmy.world
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                  How does it turn the place into an echo chamber? Why would anyone let that silence them? There are zero repercussions for a downvote on Lemmy.

                  Is your ego really so fragile that “people don’t like my comment” is enough to make you stop talking?

      • sleepy555@lemmy.world
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        I don’t think I’ve ever heard someone from the right say they support fascism. However, I’ve heard plenty on the left say they support communism. Also, the right has plenty of problems to draw upon without acting like the crazy fringe is the norm. This twitter post is insane and really not a convincing argument.

        Go ahead and downvote because you don’t like hearing it all you want, but you know it’s true.

        • Tavarin@lemmy.ca
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          I don’t think I’ve ever heard someone from the right say they support fascism

          I have.

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              The people I’ve met in real life? That would be a little tricky. But I’ve met actual open fascists.

              And there’s also people who support fascist policy, but don’t say fascism; they are still supporters of fascism.

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          I don’t think I’ve ever heard someone from the right say they support fascism. However, I’ve heard plenty on the left say they support communism

          Cool whataboutism, but the two aren’t remotely comparable. Fascism is an ideology of violence. Communism, as described by Marx, is an ideology of common ownership, lack of social classes, and the obsoletion of currency.

          Both sides are not the same.

        • Seasm0ke@lemmy.world
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          Nah its patently false. Christian nationalism is business as usual on the right now and thats just American fascism.

          America first? Fascism. MAGA is the same, look at Trumps veterans day speech

          The tiki torch “Jews will not replace us” crowd was very fine people on both sides according to him.

          Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene, R-Ga., declared in an interview that “We need to be the party of nationalism and I’m a Christian, and I say it proudly, we should be Christian nationalists.”

          There’s Rep. Lauren Boebert, who floated the idea of mandatory “biblical citizenship training,” who has said “the church is supposed to direct the government” and that she’s “tired of this separation of church and state junk.”

          They legislate against civil liberties then call anyone who opposes their attacks ‘groomers’

          Return to tradition. Reject modernism. Elevate irrationalism (denial of science). Disagreement is treason (or ‘grooming’, the new way of saying indoctrination, but a blanket condemnation of indoctrination is self incriminating for Christian nationalists). Demagougery, exploit fear of difference, tear down diversity. Attacks on immigrants to elevate ‘patriots’ (read white nationalists). Veneration of authoritarian leaders. Hyperfixation on chauvinism (Proudboys) conquest and war iconography. Selective populism, double speak where moms for liberty means book burning and parental rights means don’t challenge my bigotry by teaching acceptance. Goes on and on.

          They wont outright say fascism is good right away. It dogwhistles and doublespeak until they hold enough power.

        • AngryCommieKender@lemmy.world
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          Communism ≠ Fascism. I’m terribly sorry that every single “Communist State” literally couldn’t be a communist state any more than The Congo and North Korea are Democratic Republics. Just because someone calls themselves something doesn’t make them a member of that ideology.

          Communism at it’s core requires a dissolution of both The State (The federal government,) and an abolition of currency. The closest you’ll find to any society like this would be the aboriginal societies in Siberia, Australia, North and South America, and Africa.

          Fun fact: The Native Siberian reigndeer hunting tribes were so communistic that Russia/The USSR under both The Czar, and Lenin and Stalin didn’t have any clue how to deal with them, so much like Mao, they disrupted their way of life and caused some pretty massive famines.

          No so called “Communist” country has been anything more than a right wing authoritarian dictatorship which is about as far from communism as you could possibly get.

          Before you propagandized capitalists come at me,: “Democracy doesn’t work because The People’s Democratic Republic of The Congo, and The Democratic Republic of North Korea are nothing but authoritarian fascist dictatorships, so all attempts at democracy, much like The US under Wilson, Trump, Harding and Coolidge, will automatically fall into authoritarian fascist regimes.”

    • Breezy@lemmy.world
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      I mean who doesnt want the country you live in to provide education and healthcare, other than nazis and fascist? Whats the middle ground you refer too?

      • FontMasterFlex@lemmy.world
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        because there are more than those two issues. but go ahead and feel the moral high ground you’re seeking.

        • Syrc@lemmy.world
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          But aren’t those two issues true? And aren’t they extremely important?

          Thing is, in the current US system you can be either: Republican, Democrat, or letting other people pick your poison for you. So the first one is people who don’t want education and healthcare, the third is people who don’t care, and the second is everyone else.

          Obviously people don’t fit neatly into two camps, but the US right camp has trenched itself in so deep that it’s baffling it has more than 10% of voters.

          • FontMasterFlex@lemmy.world
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            But aren’t those two issues true? And aren’t they extremely important?

            I never said they weren’t. And you’re still wrong. There’s a such thing as nuance, but you’re missing the point, so I’m just going to leave it here. Have a great black or white life.

            • Syrc@lemmy.world
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              In what am I wrong? Aren’t US elections basically asking you to choose between a party that wants to cut healthcare and education and one that doesn’t, with no other options in between?

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        This thread is fucked. Lemmy is worse than reddit when it comes to the “if you don’t agree with me 100% then you’re a fucking nazi fascist”

        I made a comment about not buying into this hyperbolic strawman shit slinging and most of the replies are “so what do you believe” or “what do you think conservatives believe” and trying to say I’m “not arguing” with them so my words are invalid.

        I just don’t think this ITS ACTUALLY FUCKING SALVERY THEYRE ACTUAL FUCKING NAZIS is doing anything but making us look like turds

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          Don’t forget women can’t vote and can’t own property apparently too. Where the hell did that even come from?

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    “Democracy” my ass lmao. You only have one choice.

    A revolution is long overdue indeed.

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      Then make that “choice” a choice for Ranked Choice Voting at the local level. The Constitution allows for this option. The founding fathers didn’t have access to the math that proves FPTP is the worst possible voting system, despite England using FPTP since the middle ages, or as much as 600-800 years at that point.

      • mjsaber@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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        9 months ago

        The problem is the American system of democracy as it is currently organized is too geared to protect the interests of the ruling class.

        I compellingly agree that ranked choice or proportional representation would alleviate many of the issues we have, but, unlike many epochs of human history, we are literally running out of time.

        • Arelin@lemmy.zip
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          9 months ago

          too geared to protect the interests of the ruling class

          That is literally what it was designed to do, so it’s doing its job. The founding fathers hated democracy but needed a way to make it appear like they didn’t with the constitution. As AdrianTheFrog pointed out, one of the federalist papers for a US government class literally just admits:

          “A rage for paper money, for an abolition of debts, for an equal division of property, or for any other improper or wicked project, will be less apt to pervade the whole body of the union, than a particular member of it” - James Madison, the guy who drafted the constitution

          None of this will change without a revolution. So I agree with the post.

      • PhlubbaDubba@lemm.ee
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        9 months ago

        If there’s one thing Privs hate it’s when you point out they just outed themselves having an opinion only a priv would think is a reasonable thing to think.

  • Emerald@lemmy.world
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    9 months ago

    Image Transcription: Tumblr


    mikemaeshiro

    [A screenshot of a twitter post which is transcribed below]

    Rebekah Jones, @GeoRebekah

    Everyone seems to agree that a revolution is long overdue in America

    One side wants to bring back slavery, nazis, fascism, and women not being allowed to vote or own property.

    The other side just wants healthcare and education.

    The media thinks these two things are equal.

  • tweeks@feddit.nl
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    9 months ago

    I assume the title is aimed at that both parties badmouth one another in extreme, cherry-picked and oversimplified ways right?

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      9 months ago

      The issue is that the US has two right wings parties, with one being quite a bit further right.

      There is no extreme left party in the US.

      There are plenty of people who talk about extreme left ideas, but none of them are elected politicians.

      • TotallynotJessica@lemmy.world
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        9 months ago

        The bigger issue is that all countries are fairly right wing. They’re all capitalistic and nationalistic, putting them on a crash course for war and suffering. Exploitative systems just can’t work like they used to. It’s too easy for disadvantaged people to cause apocalyptic damage to those that exploit them.

      • Iceblade@lemmy.world
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        9 months ago

        But there are extremist leftists, and disagreeing with them doesn’t make you a rightist nor a fascist as they so often claim - just like disagreeing with right-wing extremism and trumpism doesn’t make you a tankie/commie/whatever extremist).

        Plenty of left-leaners disagree with the far left and plenty of right-leaners disagree with the far right.

    • SasquatchBanana@lemmy.world
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      9 months ago

      I think the title is mocking enlightened centrists. I am not sure if you’re implying this and I misunderstood your comment.

      • Chakravanti@sh.itjust.works
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        9 months ago

        They’re all paid by over-rich exploit everyone else as slaves. Give 'em a little credit. They’re not completely racist!

  • Daft_ish@lemmy.world
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    9 months ago

    I would never want to be a part of a revolution. I would only ask the same things the founding fathers fought for. Representation. Anyway you slice it, my voice will never be heard because I am not a part of the wealthiest people in this country.

    No, I am only a part of the majority…

    • Arelin@lemmy.zip
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      9 months ago

      founding fathers

      Those slave owners and teenagers? Lol they designed the constitution precisely to keep power with the rich, as what’s happening right now.

      Representation

      You will never get that in a broken and rigged system without a revolution.

      • AdrianTheFrog@lemmy.world
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        9 months ago

        I recently noticed something interesting while reading one of the federalist papers for a US government class:

        “A rage for paper money, for an abolition of debts, for an equal division of property, or for any other improper or wicked project, will be less apt to pervade the whole body of the union, than a particular member of it” -James Madison, the guy who drafted the constitution

  • ILikeBoobies@lemmy.ca
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    9 months ago

    Well one side helps the rich and the other hurts them

    But one side helps their viewers and the other hurts them

    So I can see both sides