If feel like us guys are at a disadvantage here. All our lives were are told not to complain unless we bring a solution, not to cry, get up, keep moving.
Then suddenly the thought pattern we have been trained on all our lives turns out to not be healthy for supporting others and it’s a hard transition to make when we want so desperately to help and are asked not to.
Not saying it’s wrong, just hard.
it’s a hard transition to make when we want so desperately to help and are asked not to.
Listening is helping. It took me a while to get that, but we’re helping just by being quiet.
Yup. It’s akin to “not making a choice is itself a choice”. It doesn’t feel like it is, but can be equally impactful.
Perhaps everyone wants to vent a while before they get a solution, but men aren’t allowed to do that.
I was way too old when I learned that you should ask if someone wants advice or just wants to vent. “Are we fixing or bitching?” is what I ask my best friend nowadays and it’s made us less likely to butt heads when one of us just wants to talk shit to get it out.
I feel like that would be the wrong question to ask my wife while she’s venting.
I always ask “is this a rant or are you asking for a solution?” Same question but worded in a way that isn’t going to cause problems.
Yeah I guess it depends on the person you’re talking to. Most people I’ve asked the question will usually laugh and say, “we’re bitching right now.”
I respond with, “bitch away.”
I (37M) recently caught myself getting frustrated when my wife offered solutions to my ranting. I just wanted to complain and not be told all the ways I could have avoided the problem in the first place. I finally understand.
Yes! It totally happens to everyone, once you notice it. Best self-awareness/relationship advice I’ve heard is say something like “Are you looking for advice, or someone to listen?”. Phrasing and tone to be adjusted by the individual user, obviously XD
There is, I think, a significant difference between giving suggestions on how to resolve an issue, and a person offering ways you could have prevented it. And I would hazard most people find the latter unhelpful and annoying.
Thank you, yeah it’s like sometimes you just have to work through it before you hear some suggestions.
Sometimes people just need someone to listen to them bitch and moan. Sometimes we don’t need a solution, sometimes there isn’t even a solution.
As a problem-solver, it isn’t only women.
This could also be an issue of this:
The difference between empathy and sympathy
In my experience some people struggle with empathy a lot more than they realise. And the “solutions” they offer are just ways for them to try and get out of an uncomfortable conversation. There are better and more honest ways to do that.
I think we should stop saying empathy and start saying compassion (again.)
Most people don’t know what the differences between sympathy and empathy are and get confused whenever they hear empathy. “You mean sympathy?”
Just say compassion. I get the ‘dm’ crowd has chosen their wording, but it sucks and we can change it.
Replace every instance of ‘empathy’ with compassion and everyone will understand you better, but you won’t be virtue signaling for your crowd.
I don’t think she actually captured what sympathy is. And here’s an counter point to empathy
I don’t think he captured what empathy is. What he says honestly aligns more closely with sympathy by my understanding.
Sympathy involves understanding and feeling sorry for someone’s situation, while empathy goes a step further, involving the ability to share and understand the emotions of another person. It’s almost always a one on one connection. You’re putting yourself in their shoes, personally.
Sympathy often includes a desire to offer solutions or assistance, while empathy is primarily about understanding and sharing emotions. Donating to a charity for the blind out of a sense of feeling sorry for them aligns more with sympathy, as it involves a compassionate response and a potential desire to provide support or solutions without necessarily fully understanding the blind individuals’ emotional experiences. It’s even less empathetic if you’re primarily doing it to feel good. I would personally classify it as altruism or personal fulfilment based on sympathy for their suffering.
I do agree with the general point that you can usually get more done if you pick a lane, I just don’t think the fact that people don’t pick a lane, because they want to feel good for helping many different causes, is based on misguided empathy. And I think it’s wrong to argue empathy is bad based on this premise.
Lastly, even if I’m entirely wrong and it is empathy, he’s only arguing against empathy being bad on a societal level. That does not mean it’s bad on a one on one level such as when talking to a friend, family member or partner. Arguing that ALL empathy is bad just because using empathy to make decisions on “how best to help the world” is bad is incredibly inaccurate.
What if your nature is in constant problem solving mode, my life and work revolve around solving problems so it’s a natural neurological pathway. Should someone like that work overtime to suppress how they think about a situation, and stay quiet until they formulate some method of discussion and acknowledgement of the problem, without offering solutions?
What if your nature is in constant problem solving mode, my life and work revolve around solving problems so it’s a natural neurological pathway.
If that’s why you’re problem solving then your urge Problem solving is for you and about you . Not for them. If you’re making room for someone in your life that means letting things also be about them.
Should someone like that work overtime to suppress how they think about a situation, and stay quiet
Again: making it about you and how it’s inconvenient for you.
until they formulate some method of discussion and acknowledgement of the problem, without offering solutions?
Sometimes it is about them finding their voice. And at times it’s about letting them learn. It can be empowering for them to grow.
You might offer help when asked or when you know someone definitely is incapable. But let others have their space and their journey too especially if you know they are capable.
Problem solving is sometimes a problem in and of itself especially in situations of where it’s enabling or stifling others or stopping you from connecting to them.
I guess then I should just stay quiet and keep doing whatever I’m working on while listening passively.
Listening actively comes in more than one description. Cmon it cannot be painful to be there for someone else. Stop being obtuse on purpose. That’s just acting in bad faith.
I think it comes down to the balance, most people want me to listen but do not care to listen to me. It is generally a selfish thing to demand from me my full attention without reciprocating. That is not bad faith in that case.
I think some people are just not compatible with each other. To try and claim one way is right or better or more rational is surprisingly unrational and not aligned with finding a solution.
When you are unable to offer emotional support or empathy to your partner, communicate early that you won’t be willing or able to listen to their problems on their terms. Then they can decide if that’s okay with them. Problem solved.
Some people need to be heard a lot more than others, could be compatibility in that case. If I’m the listener 90% of the time without being able to engage in the conversation really, it doesn’t seem appealing for me to be there at all. A balance is probably a key factor, and some people are far more needy than others.
Maybe consider it from the other perspective - the other party wants to be heard. That’s the problem you’re trying to solve.
Can you solve it? How would you solve it? What approaches make them feel heard? What feedback do they need from you to indicats they are being heard? How do you get feedback from them that they feel heard? What are the words you should use? How will you know they are wanting to be heard? What are the words they are using? What are the facial expressions they are using? What are they doing with their body while they’re talking to you? 1What situations are likely to bring about an instance which they are wanting to be heard?
I had to do this a bit when moving into people management. After a whole you become practised at it and it’s not hard any more.
This. Turn it into a puzzle and maybe you won’t be stressed out when you can’t instantly solve it so you don’t have to listen
I forgot who, but someone told me i should ask; “do you need an ear or a solution” whenever people come rant about anything. Best tips i heard in a while.
Yes, I started doing this as well with my GF. If she is describing a problem at work or whatever I ask “Do you want me to tell you how I would fix this, or do you just want me to listen?” and like 75% of the time she already knows what to do and just wants me to listen to the problem and then when she is done she feels better because she got to vent, but sometimes she really does want an answer. It works out good for both of us.
I got a better one what makes it less obvious: listen and only offer a solution if they ask for it.
Most people, especially women, crave connection. We want to feel seen and understood. Cutting us off to provide a quick solution feels as if you really just want us to shut up so you can go back to whatever you were doing.
I acknowledge that the cutting off part is valid, but that wasn’t in OPs post.
Top the broader point, I can say confidently that many men feel like to provide an actionable solution to a problem projects exactly what you say that you want - to us it says that we’ve seen, heard and understood you and we cared enough to process the information we heard and offer a solution that we formed by investing some real thought/energy into you as a person we care about.
Can you empathize with how, to a person with the above perception, that just quietly nodding along and saying, “that’s really tough” or “I’m sorry about that honey” would sound like exactly the opposite of what you say you want - Like we’re not actually tuned in and listening to you, but rather just waiting for pauses in your speech so we can share generic platitudes while maintaining eye contact to give the illusion that we’re invested?
It’s a tricky balance and there’s likely just a fundamental disconnect that we should address. I think you and I can solve this one for the whole world going forward though, what do you think?
Oftentimes though, if I’m sharing frustration with something, I already have a solution. It’s just that it’s hard, or inconvenient, or stressful. If my partner comes in immediately with solutions, the discussion immediately turns to practical discussion of the solution I have in mind vs. what my partner thinks is best. If I already have a viable solution in mind, this is not what I need and puts me on the defensive when I’m already stressed and hurt. Especially if my partner doesn’t fully understand the problem yet. This has the capability to turn into arguing very fast because it presents the opportunity for disagreement without dealing with underlying emotional states.
However, if my partner instead listens, starts by supporting me emotionally, “I’m sorry, that’s tough”, and lets me get my piece out, I’m already going to feel a bit better, especially if I can trust my partner not to assume I just haven’t thought about it enough. Much of the time, all I need is reassurance and confidence-building in the solution I already have - mirroring on an emotional level without focusing on finding better practical solutions is a perfect way to do that. After I’m freaking out a little less and have laid out the full problem and it’s completely understood, I don’t mind some “have you tried X” or “what would you think of Y” conversation. But the emotional work and full understanding of the problem has to come first for that to be productive.
Damn. Downvotes for a perfectly cogent explanation. Those of you downvoting consider that not everyone wants, needs, or has the same relationship dynamics or even personal philosophies towards emotional work and reactions to problems.
Unprocessed feelings always come out in some way, not all healthy. Suppressing temporarily or venting are only part of the equation. Choosing to process negative shit with or in front of a partner is something for each person and couple to figure out.
You’re completely right and it’s taken me a while to get there. My engineer brain always wants to be solution oriented, but sometimes my GF just needs someone to vent to, and that’s ok!
omfg as an engineer SAME! I’ve struggled with both sides of this somehow. Being a great problem solver gives you some very useful tools, but they’re not always the right tools for the job in interpersonal situations. It’s taken some time to remember in the moment that venting usually contains emotions greater than the specifics of what’s being discussed, and as a partner the emotions are generally the important part. Solutions come easy once everyone’s calm, if they’re even necessary or possible in the first place.
that because you suck at active listening
At the same time, the way I understand issues and connect with people is to try to relate to them and bounce that back. It helps to make sure my understanding is correct, or identify what is missing.
If that includes something that sounds like solutions, sometimes that’s just the natural course of conversation, and people should be just as understanding about the other side of the conversation.
It begins to come across that someone is not looking for conversation, just an audience, and that’s not a happy feeling to be on the end of either. It makes us feel just as ignored. After enough of that feeling long term, we can’t help but feel like we aren’t getting the connection we crave either.
This is a two-way communication issue, and when there’s a breakdown, that’s not always on us as listeners.
I mean kinda is true though? Ignoring an easy fix just so you can keep complaining about the problem makes it feel like you don’t actually care about the issue, you just wanted any excuse to complain at me. On our end, the problem and feelings of frustration surrounding it weren’t “invalidated” until you decided continuing to be frustrated was more important than having a possible answer to the issue.
We want you to stop complaining about it because the problem is addressed and isn’t a problem causing frustration anymore. NOT because we’re just annoyed hearing you talk and want to shut you up and invalidate your feelings about the problem.
If anything this narrative of “oh God just shut up” invalidates OUR feelings about being gaslit for trying to fucking help.
It’s the relationship equivalent of watching conservatives go on and on and on and on about underage pregnancies when multiple institutional remedies are right there, and they proceed to ignore those solutions in favor of getting to continue complaining about the problem.
Why is it my responsibility to validate feelings you yourself are telling me are just kvetch that you actively choose to keep being mad about instead of addressing to not waste energy on being angry.
If anything this narrative of “oh God just shut up” invalidates OUR feelings about being gaslit for trying to fucking help.
This entire comment is a whole new level of whiny misogynist cringe. This person is so incredibly worked up about a woman wanting to be supported and heard that if they weren’t such an asshole, people might actually feel bad for them.
Is it actually wanting to be supported if you don’t want support, just to bitch and moan about a problem that has a solution?
Why should you be supported and heard when you’re complaining about a problem caused by someone not being able to solve 2+2?
There is an answer, it has a simple implementation, it will fix the problem, and you’re getting mad it was offered because “I just want to be heard!”
This isn’t the fucking MeToo movement where women are being spoken over and shut up by institutional violence, this is women deciding feeling valid is more important than addressing the fucking problem that’s making them feel whatever feelings they think need validating more than the problem needs solving.
“Why can’t we just enjoy the problem a bit?” BECAUSE IT IS A FUCKING PROBLEM, IT BY DEFINITION IS NOT SOMETHING ANYONE ENJOYS, JUST FUCKING SOLVE THE PROBLEM AND STOP GASLIGHTING PEOPLE FOR OFFERING SOLUTIONS TO IT.
Just because women do it does not mean it is a healthy and valid response to a situation, and this kvetch about “solutions bad” is the crowning example of this.
We heard the problem, we are supporting you by offering help to solve the problem. You are the one invalidating shit by rejecting solutions in the name of continuing to have a problem to feel valid and complain about.
Sometimes people just want to talk about what they are going through. There’s nothing wrong with that. If they want help solving it, they will ask.
Ok but getting upset if a solution is offered because “can’t you just listen to me‽”
Is well beyond fair to whoever you have conscripted as your sounding board. At that point it’s not just venting about what you’re going through, it’s attacking them for daring to empathize in a way you didn’t tell them you didn’t want.
Huh. An interrobang in the wild.
I hear what you are saying, and I’ve been there with a friend who continues to make bad choices and then cry about the logical results of those choices. However, it’s not that difficult to just say, “That sounds rough. I’m sorry you’re going through that.” There is absolutely no need to be a judgemental asshole about it. Asking, “Are you looking for advice or sympathy?” is super easy. Listening is super easy. You have to ask yourself why you are getting butthurt if somebody doesn’t immediately take your advice or deal with life the exact same way you do.
Why is “that’s rough buddy” take the place of offering help?
Why is it getting butthurt about them not just doing it the way I’d do it when the subject was them getting mad at me for offering a solution at all?
Clearly you are incapable of understanding despite multiple people trying to explain it to you.
No, there’s just nothing worth understanding.
As I said before, just because it’s a woman vs man thing, doesn’t mean the way the women are doing it is healthy, and worth respecting.
We have toxic masculinity, we don’t need toxic feminity to explain why solutions to a problem are bad and you should just shut up and let the problem haver “feel valid” instead of doing anything that materially helps them.
Wow. Just wow. This is such an eye-opener. I mean, with all the comments here.
I had no idea this was a common thing! Up until now I thought only my girlfriend was like this.
Also, this makes me understand a Christmas present I received many years ago. I never understood the meaning of it and never knew from whom I received it and why (so I couldn’t ask about it), it was just under the Christmas tree next to a book I received. This “gift” was just a note on a piece of very thin wooden sheet, it said “Is it necessary to find a solution to every problem? Can’t we just enjoy the problem for a little bit?”
Now it kinda makes sense, although I still don’t know why I received it. Yes, I am a very solution-oriented person, but I’m also very introverted, back then I didn’t have a girlfriend, I had no friends, I didn’t even talk with my family much, and honestly, I couldn’t even really find solutions to problems in the first place. I have no clue what made someone give that to me.
Probably your mom.
Same here. After marriage, I did learned to tone down on this.
People notice you more than you think they do. You may think you didn’t talk to people much but that means it was non zero and people tend to listen.
People will want to dwell on the problem for a bit so they can fully feel their feelings. They feel cut off and stunted if they’re not allowed to.
“Before you start, are you looking for solutions, or are you looking for someone to listen?”
This is an essential relationship skill/concept. Learn it and watch all your relationships improve.
“Are you solution minded or still in the feelings phase?”
My mother is a steel woman, rational and calm, no bitching, no crying, there is a problem? fix it. You need something? say it, don’t expect others to guess. Words are empty, you care? See what that person needs and help them. Not a fan of corny things, you want love? There is this delicious food, and a hug, now grow up and keep going.
Aaand everything she taught me, has put me at odds with every women I have dated.
I let you in on a secret: these type of people exist in every gender. So do people who are sensitive and emotional. Stereotypes and sexism about that is dumb. Believing anecdotal evidence speaks for a whole group of people is dumb as well.
What works if someone has a preference is to look early into how a person ticks. Instead of focusing on stereotypes and other superficial assumptions (for example).
I’m gonna let you in on another secret, a hard life makes people like my mother, a coddled person tends to be very emotional.
Since you are a rational person and not just emotionally reacting, I bet you have a credible source for these blanket statements. Can you name one, please? Because I can’t find even one.
Are you getting triggered or something? Yes my mother is that way, but in contrast my father is pretty much a manchild, can’t keep control of his emotions.
All the women I have dated doesn’t include you, so stop proyecting yourself on that statement. Maybe I feel attracted to those kind of people in virtue of my own emotional simplicity, just like her. It’s all anecdotal evidence, never claimed that’s the way the world works nor I believe it is. If people read my statement and starts believing that is the way the world works, not my problem.
More anecdotal evidence: when you don’t know what are you going to eat today you don’t have time for bitching and moaning, not first world poverty, but abject third world poverty.
I am not sure if this was supposed to be a response to my comment or got their accidentally ?
I asked if you have a source for this claim, because I couldn’t find any:
a hard life makes people like my mother, a coddled person tends to be very emotional.
a coddled person tends to have very poor emotional regulation in the opposite way your mother is poor at regulating her emotions.
We are all maladjusted
They key is to do both. Listen intentently, respond with something like “wow that sucks, would you like a hug?” And then while hugging say something like “is there anything I can do to help you with this?”
That’s what will give you your answer. If she says “no” then just let it be. If she says “I don’t know” help to guide her to the solution. Ask “what do you think could be done to make it better?” And let the pieces fall in place.
Even if you know the answer, it’s better to let people come up with it on their own. They’ll feel understood and empowered, and you won’t get shit on for being calous. Everyone wins
love languages. Even an action can be relatively empty, in the short term. For some people, physical action takes less effort than emotional, empathetic work due to the potential emotional discomfort involved and/or the vulnerability required. Different people need different things, this is often due to our experiences as children.
You’re not the problem and neither are they.
You’re not getting it. The listening is the help
This meme is pretty belittling to the wife in this scenario and it’s kind of fucked.
Rule #1 of being in a relationship is learning to listen and empathize with your partner. Just sit, and listen quietly, and tell them “that really sucks, I am so sorry, I’m here for you” It’s really that simple. Most of us are techy and leap to a solution because that’s how our brains are wired but they just want someone to listen. Just listen
Concurrently, constantly telling a rational problem solver problems and not letting them offer solutions ALSO takes a mental toll on the listener.
It’s bidirectional. It probably will result in compassion fatigue.
The problem is 9 times out of 10, your problem solving won’t help because they’ve already thought of the fix or you don’t have enough of the nuance involved to offer a viable solution. So to insist on offering, means that your partner now has to balance your ego and how to tell you “yeah I know” or why your idea won’t work.
Top the rational thinker, the problem is “I need to vent my emotions in a healthy manner” and the rational solution is “listen” and if the problem transitions from “I need to vent” to “I need help” then you can work on a solution together.
The core problem, as always, is communication.
If you want to vent, or gain some compassion and care, and you’re talking about your problems to a problem solver - say it.
Don’t say “I have problem A and I don’t need solutions”. Say “I know what to do with this, but it’s very frustrating and I need your support”. Yes, just like that. Admit, with words, that you want them to care for you. That’s it.
If you’re a problem solver, and you know the other person is often willing to just vent, or if you’re not completely sure your advice is wanted, ask it.
Don’t say “Just do B, problem solved”. Say “I might have some ideas on how to help you. Do you want my advice or should I just be there for you?”. And then if they want it - go for it! Don’t expect them to be ignorant of simple solutions; most likely they already thought them over, and either dismissed them for reasons not obvious to you from the first glance, or they already made it part of their plan.
Talk such things through, it will do wonders. For both of you.
I completely agree that you need to communicate. But that is outside the issue posed by the previous poster who said that it’s too emotionally taxing to just listen when you want to problem solve. Their comment implies that the conversation has been had, they know their partner just needs to vent, but being the listener their partner needs will cause “compassion fatigue”
So I attempted to rephrase it so that the “rational problem solver” could satisfy their “need to problem solve in contradiction to what their partner needs” by presenting it in a way that listening, is in fact the solution, to the problem at hand.
Fair, but let’s be honest, most of the time a partner may not want to hear about a solution because they first want compassion and understanding. Be willing to listen, and your partner will talk about a solution when they are ready.
I can’t speak to “most of the time” as I only have experience with my relationships. In my current one, problem solving and empathy both are used to great results.
ya, I think the person b4 you is jumping to conclusions a bit. What matters is what works for the couple, not some generalized assumption about their dynamic. The meme could have been in jest and if we want to give OP the benefit of the doubt here then it probably is
Fucking god yes. My friends wonder why I don’t talk to them about my issues, it’s because they won’t just shut the fuck up and listen.
🎼🎵🎶Let’s swap eyes so we can empathize🎶🎵
Venting is important as a support person. Sometimes it really is just being there for the person.
I’m a problem solver. I know how to solve those problems!
It took years of marriage before it was pointed out that’s not what the complainer wants.
Step one: get lighter fluid.
Step two: set desk on fire.
Step three: quit.
Step four: woah, hold on I was just joking!(Well, about the fire at any rate…)
Lighter than what?
In case you were seriously asking, “lighter fluid” is just fuel/gas to quickly (an accelerant) start a fire. So the fuel you might find in a cigarette lighter. Typically when people say “lighter fluid”, in this case, they mean the giant squirt bottle that you use on a barbecue pit to get the coals to light faster.
