It has low-lifes living in the future, but there really isn’t much high-tech and governments are still in control (not corporations). So do you consider Escape From New York to be cyberpunk?
Apparently the movie was an influence for William Gibson:
Escape from New York never made it big, but it’s been redone a billion times as a rock video. I saw that movie, by the way, when I was starting “Burning Chrome” and it had a real influence on Neuromancer.
But that doesn’t immediately make it cyberpunk. After all, Gibson was also influenced by hard-boiled detective novels and that doesn’t make those cyberpunk.
I could see the argument for this either way so I’m curious what your thoughts are.
It’s streaming on Roku Channel and Freevee (Amazon Prime) if you haven’t seen it before.
No, it’s got some commonalities, by being set in the future. But I would consider it of the post-apocalyptic genre, first and foremost.
Right, it’s somewhat like Mad Max but in a decayed urban environment.
Since I’m invested… what apocalypse happened? Genuine question. It has been a while since I watched it, but the apocalypse happens at the end of Escape from LA, not before New York.
No apocalypse, it was just that crime had gone up significantly. From the opening scene:
Narrator : In 1988, the crime rate in the United States rises four hundred percent. The once great city of New York becomes the one maximum security prison for the entire country. A fifty-foot containment wall is erected along the New Jersey shoreline, across the Harlem River, and down along the Brooklyn shoreline. It completely surrounds Manhattan Island. All bridges and waterways are mined. The United States Police Force, like an army, is encamped around the island. There are no guards inside the prison, only prisoners and the worlds they have made. The rules are simple: once you go in, you don’t come out.
Fair point. I still maintain it’s a cyberpunk genre. After all, increased crime is a pretty big deal in cyberpunk as well.
We might have to agree to disagree on this one. :)
Maybe I’m thinking more about Escape from LA then, but it seemed like the city was already in shambles at the beginning of EFNY
How so? New York only claims crime was up drastically, turning it into a prison. No apocalypse level event to speak of, it just looked that way.
Not even LA was post apocalyptic, even as bad as things seemed. Now, after entering in the world code and resetting society with the EMP blast…THAT would be post apocalyptic.
Couldn’t you say that full societal collapse is enough of a world ending event?
Yes, but that didn’t happen until after Escape From LA ended. Prior to that, it may have looked end of the world inside the prison but society outside was still functioning.
I don’t know. I throught the whole city looked like that. It’s honestly been well over 20 years since I last saw it, so I’ve probably forgotten some parts. But the tone and aesthetic I remember was a very post-apocalyptic vibe
a genre of science fiction set in a lawless subculture of an oppressive society dominated by computer technology.
Yup. Fits that definition I’d say.
Edit: since I’ve been thinking about it, if we include Escape From LA there was that cyber world that the bad guy seduces the president’s daughter in. That was a good indication of cyber-ness.
Perhaps not high-cyberpunk, but definitely low-cyberpunk.
“A lawless subculture of an oppressive society”, that’s an interesting distinction. The movie does take place in a lawless subculture but that’s because New York City is basically a prison. Does a prison count as a lawless subculture?
Also, are there indications that the society is oppressive? The government people are kinda jerks to Snake, but he’s also a bit of an ass so it isn’t unwarranted. I don’t remember if any regular citizens appear to be oppressed in the movie (not counting inmates within New York City).
I’m not disagreeing with you, I’m just poking at this definition to see if it applies. 🤔
Lol. “Are there indications that the society is oppressive?” Dude they turned Manhattan into a prison because they couldn’t build enough prisons to house their prisoners. I’d say that’s a pretty good indication of oppression. Don’t forget they did the same to LA. If you have to do shit like that, that’s pretty oppressive I’d say.
Not to mention there were several (iirc) prisoners there for both political and bullshit reasons. (It’s been a while, can’t think of any specific examples.)
And the world isn’t just New York. There was the “Escape from Cleveland” story that strongly hints at a very lawless land.
About the only flaw in the definition is the computer technology part, but I’d say that’s a limitation of the time the movie was made, but there were several other samples of high tech stuff going on. Perhaps not CPU focused, but close enough to fit the definition I feel.
Ok, fair point. You’re right, if entire cities are being turned into prisons then we don’t need to see average citizens to know they’re being oppressed. I agree.
I would put Escape into the category of dystopian science fiction, because it’s not dominated by computer technology (as opposed to Neuromancer or Snow Crash, eg). Road Warrior is similar to Escape in that computers played little to no role in the story. The “science fiction” part might even be disputable if people would prefer something like “futuristic dystopia,” because the science element is mostly absent as a plot point.
I’d put a lot of PKD’s stuff on the borderline or well into cyberpunk as they feature androids and questions revolving around high tech as central plot elements. I’d hesitate with Robocop, because although it does have, well, robots and lowlifes, it doesn’t mix them like we see in Hackers or even They Live. The central plot point in They Live is how the aliens are using technology to hide themselves and execute their agenda while the good guys are hackers trying to disrupt the system.
All solid points. The lack of computer tech really is the weak point in my argument. But I’d also argue you can have a cyberpunk setting without computer tech being a focal point of the story. In which case, the only remaining point is does this society have a higher level of computer technology? And the answer to that is indeterminate based on the information shown. But I do feel like it’s strongly hinted at.
This is my thought process as well and why I wanted to post the question. I was tempted to make the same post with They Live. These movies have a strong anti-authority theme, but not “cyber” enough for me to call them cyberpunk. It’s interesting then that you consider Escape From New York dystopian while you would put They Live in the cyberpunk category. We’re definitely discussing shades of gray here but it’s interesting how we would draw the lines differently.
For me, I think the use of technology (hacking) to find a solution is what crosses the line into cyberpunk. Escape From New York and They Live both involve punching and shooting things to win; they’re using the “old” way of thinking. Cyberpunk is using the “new” technology to fight the injustices of the world. At least that’s how I think of it when looking at these shades of gray.
I know - I think They Live is definitely borderline. I was thinking specifically about the fact that the aliens were specifically using technology to control the population, represented and ran corporations to drive consumerism and sheep-like obedience, and the rebellion were scruffy leftist hackers as well as having a guerrilla movement. The concentration of the film was on the action, but the story with the aliens was more than a McGuffin.
“Scrappy tech folks trying to hack and crash the system and bring about the revolution” tips it for me, but it’s definitely an edge case and not what you’d call a canonical example.
Neither Escape nor the Mad Maxen had that kind of plot line, so I’d exclude them.
What technology? I don’t remember much outside of a modern drop sled thingy.
I’d say the prison walls qualify.
It’s been a long while since I watched the movie, but there were some examples of high(er) tech being used. Its likely a limited budget/imagination of the times that prohibited the details.
Just walls isn’t enough to make it cyberpunk 😂
It’s clearly a dystopian/post-apocalyptic setting.
I say yes. It’s cyber/diesel punk. Mostly thinking about those fly-over shots from the beginning of the movie. Iirc they used a city model painted black and covered it with reflective tape to make it look like a 3d computer model
Huge respect for the sheer creativity that goes into creating practical effects like that given the limited resources at the time.
High tech, low life? Yes.
Big divide between rich and poor? YesIt doesn’t have most of the commonly associated asthetics but tonally and plot wise I’d say it fits.
Lots of good takes here, my two pennies: The one thing that’s always held me back from labeling it “cyberpunk” is actually the lack of corporate control. It’s definitely a sci-fi dystopia with a lot of visual and thematic elements that align well with the biggest examples of Cyberpunk, but instead of corporations being the power in charge, it seems (from the information I recall in the two films) that it’s just the government itself has become overbearingly authoritarian.
But I’m not going to argue all that hard with anyone that disagrees. It’s definitely hanging out at the same parties.
