• ThatWeirdGuy1001@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    113
    arrow-down
    4
    ·
    edit-2
    11 months ago

    This is what I’ve always said to people when it comes to things like respect

    Respect isn’t earned it’s the baseline. You give everyone a base level of respect as the default and their reaction is what determines your continued level of respect.

    • alvvayson@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      76
      ·
      edit-2
      11 months ago

      It goes way, way deeper.

      It’s the tit-for-tat strategy that is applicable in a very wide range of situations. And animals follow it too. It is deeply ingrained in our biology.

      1. first time you interact with a new person, you assume they are following the same strategy, so you cooperate.

      2. if they don’t, then next time, you don’t either. But if they do, then you both continue cooperating until someone breaks the chain of trust.

      3. Once broken, the guilty party must make amends to restart.

      4. If broken, but neither party acknowledges guilt, a restart can be tried, but it will always be difficult due to distrust. So it works better if one party takes the blame, makes amends and restarts. (this is called ‘being the bigger person’).

      • Arghblarg@lemmy.ca
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        20
        ·
        11 months ago

        Upvote for mentioning tit-for-tat. There has been a lot of research on the iterated prisoner’s dilemma, and as I recall the winning strategy determined by many experiments showed that over time, the ‘nice tit-for-tat’ strategy gets the highest score. It may lose out in an individual interaction, but over time, sticking to it is the best long-term strategy.

        However this does mean if one is a grifter and fully expects never to interact with the other (victim) party again… there’s less incentive to use such a strategy.

        • alvvayson@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          3
          ·
          edit-2
          11 months ago

          Indeed.

          Which is why most people have an innate distrust and disgust of grifters.

          I would even argue that our very deep disgust against grifters is the legitimate base emotion on which xenophobia is built and therefore xenophobia will always be with us and must always be actively unlearned.

          (Racism, in contrast, is learned and can be eradicated by stopping it’s spread)

    • Slotos@feddit.nl
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      7
      ·
      11 months ago

      Word “respect” means two different things. One of them can only be earned, another can only be given.

      What’s more, the part that can only be given is best described by trust. As in, the only way you can truly know if you can trust someone is to trust and find out.

      In this context, the respect that is given - a regard for the others - is a baseline trust in a reciprocal valuation. The respect that is earned is the collection of outcomes that feed into others’ trust risk assessment.

  • Nobody@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    21
    arrow-down
    1
    ·
    11 months ago

    Not giving a shit about other people is a mental illness. Lack of empathy may be taught by several institutions, but it’s still morally wrong and against human nature. Cooperation is how our species survived.

  • TheGoldenGod@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    19
    ·
    edit-2
    11 months ago

    At first, I saw this and thought I really needed my glasses, but once I got them… saw this image is heavily compressed. 🥴

    Edit: uncompressed the image to clean it up

    • jeremyparker@programming.dev
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      7
      arrow-down
      2
      ·
      edit-2
      11 months ago

      The paradox has never been a problem for you.

      Some people find the paradox of tolerance to be unhelpful because it seems like it’s making an excuse for intolerance. And to be fair, the paradox phrasing doesn’t provide hard boundaries - intentionally, I think, since the extent to which a statement is intolerant can vary - and intolerance in response to it should be commensurate. But for people who tend towards black and white thinking, it can be a problematic explanation.

      The social contact version is much more clear cut: the metaphor of contract law is binary, and contains the image of the neutral “judge” which is helpful for black and white thinkers. A person either is it is not in breach of contract. It lacks nuance, which is good and bad.

      Essentially, the core idea is the same: tolerance is the expected foundation; intolerance is abnormal and not ok. But whichever expression works for you is probably better.

      Editing to add: the contract version, with its appeal to the Law and judges etc, is objective, which is helpful; the subjective nature of the paradox means that it can be weaponized - and it is, often. Tho to be fair the people who would weaponize it would probably weaponize either version - as it has been, multiple times in this very thread.

      • boredtortoise@lemm.ee
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        3
        ·
        11 months ago

        For me? Yeah sure, but that’s irrelevant and not the case of my comment.

        What I meant is that the paradox doesn’t mean that the concept of tolerance is toppled by the paradox existing.

        But your exploration of the topic is spot-on. This post is an additional way to describe it and it seems to be more approachable to many, so great

    • Obi@sopuli.xyz
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      4
      ·
      11 months ago

      Right this is just adding another layer to the same concept.

  • ThatFembyWho@lemmy.blahaj.zone
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    19
    arrow-down
    10
    ·
    edit-2
    11 months ago

    Whoa, if someone doesn’t abide by a social contract, it doesn’t apply to them? That is legitimately a scary thought. It feels a bit like saying if I break a law, the law doesn’t apply to me; but I would very much like the parts that shield me from abuse and unfair judgement, to still apply…

    Also what is the universally accepted subset of human behaviors, viewpoints and identities that we should tolerate? It seems like an arbitrary line, in some ways, and if it’s an arbitrary line, it can be moved to exclude ever more people.

    Playing devils advocate here, I don’t have a problem with, say, rejecting fascists and nazis whose viewpoints are destructive toward the kind of world I wish to live in. That’s simply being pragmatic.

    • AFaithfulNihilist@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      23
      arrow-down
      1
      ·
      11 months ago

      If you violate the terms of an agreement you do not get the benefits of the agreement but that does not mean that you cannot be punished.

    • cynar@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      2
      ·
      11 months ago

      Laws and social contracts are different things. A social contract is often only enforced by the option of its withdrawal. Another example is covering shifts at work. If a colleague asks you, and you always refuse, you then can’t complain when they refuse, when you ask them. The social contract is “You bail me out, and I’ll bail you out in turn.”

      A lot of social contracts are implicit in our cultures. They take the form of “respect” or “courtesy”. In fact, many are good examples of “enlightened self interest altruism”. You do something altruistic, with the understanding that, if needed, others will do the same for you in the future. E.g. I support having a strong income safety net, financed by taxes (including my own). I never plan on relying on it, but support it because I hope something would catch me if I ended up in trouble. (I also support it because I consider it a good thing, but that’s only my internal feelings on the matter)

  • Whelks_chance@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    14
    arrow-down
    5
    ·
    11 months ago

    Adding, and then insisting upon, the existence of a social construct, doesn’t negate the existence of the original paradox.

    Of course if we all agree to play by the same rules, those rules make more sense. That’s kinda the point.

    The paradox is about what happens if some people refuse to accept those rules. Then it all falls apart.

  • rengoku2@lemm.ee
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    6
    arrow-down
    3
    ·
    11 months ago

    Right, need to show this to Muslims in this country I live in.

    • XIIIesq@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      5
      ·
      edit-2
      11 months ago

      Muslims are the only intolerant people in your society? Is it all Muslims or just the diehard fan boys?

      • rengoku2@lemm.ee
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        2
        arrow-down
        1
        ·
        edit-2
        11 months ago

        There are several pockets of area where Muslims are not the majority.

        I have never heard of violence against minorities in that area, even for Muslims themselves.

        Meanwhile Muslims:

        1. Prevent people from eating during Ramadhan. They force minorities to fast also.

        2. Destroy Churches and other religious buildings.

        3. Prevent people from going to Church or Temples etc.

        4. Harass Chinese, somehow Chinese are so hated around here. For no fucking reason.

        Hint: this is in Southeast Asia.

  • Kindness@lemmy.ml
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    2
    ·
    edit-2
    11 months ago

    I don’t know why I am so helpless to resist putting energy into things that make me so unhappy, but I am. I will mention an example to explain why I feel this is inconsistent, and then condemn the ideals behind the paradox.

    By no means was India under a social contract with the colonialist British Raj. The British Raj was created using forceful means.

    India did not gain swaraj by professing violence when the British intimidated them. Nor when they British rode over them on horses. They gained swaraj through non-violent resistance. The successful party tolerated outrageous abuse without violence. And won their social contract.

    The Paradox of Tolerance suggests the only means of combating violent intolerance is through the same intolerance.

    I cannot agree. This is no different from saying, “A violent dog may only be stopped by a violent dog.” The people who follow such dogma devolve into organizations such as Hamas. Hamas is right to resist their intolerant neighbors. Certainly. Absolutely? Even through violence against civilians?

    One sentiment in this thread cut close to this issue, which I will paraphrase. “Anyone who passively supports intolerance is also intolerant.”

    Such an ideal supports violence, as each side believes they are justified in causing ever higher counts of casualties, “To remove the intolerant.”

    Violence for violence. Hate for hate. There is no end to intolerance, ever. Not through tolerance, not through discourse, not through genocide of the intolerant.

    The end of a violent dog is through careful restraint and gentle care, but there will always be violent dogs. Violence is a short term dirty bandage, followed by rot, followed by excision. Only care can help heal a wound.

    The paradox is almost right. The end to tolerance is… intolerance.

    Forgive me for intruding upon your morning, I wish you a pleasant day.

    • Void_Sloth@lemmy.worldOP
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      2
      ·
      11 months ago

      I’m glad you put the effort in, it’s the only way humanity can improve upon itself.

      I agree with what you’ve said and think this graphic agrees with you as well. I don’t believe it implies that violence should be used against the intolerant but rather that action should be taken to remedy intolerance.

      However I do see what you mean, as it’s phrasing doesn’t preclude violence either and could be further refined to highlight that point.

    • Whelks_chance@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      2
      arrow-down
      2
      ·
      edit-2
      11 months ago

      This is delivered in an entertaining way, but it has multiple issues within.

      For one, it’s delivered by a “beloved” UK institution of an entertainer, who has power and a podium. Insulting him as he asks would be largely pointless. It’s not a level playing field.

      He also utilises a number of straw men arguments throughout, without citation, so a decent chunk can be ignored as he’s arguing against a fictitious stance he’s created for comedic effect.

      Also, there’s a suggestion that an insult doesn’t carry weight, impact or importance. Which isn’t true. Again, insulting him would largely achieve very little, but that’s really not the case for most people, especially those who are already struggling in society.

      Allowing any arbitrary insult, especially in the widely visible and indefinitely indelible world of the internet, can have long, deep and destructive implications on those on the receiving end of them.

      Words have power, those who lie, deceive or misconstrue facts should be held to account for it.

      As Pratchett said, a lie can travel around the world before the truth can get it’s boots on.

  • magikarpet@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    11
    arrow-down
    12
    ·
    edit-2
    11 months ago

    I like it as long as the social contract is made clear. The problem is a social contract is basically a set of rules people have consented to “explicitly or tacitly” in order to participate in society.

    So while this is good in situations, like people taking offense when someone uses a racial slur in a city.

    It could in theory be bad, like practicing an unpopular religion in a rural town.

    • Urist@lemmy.ml
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      8
      ·
      11 months ago

      It is easier than that. Rejecting violence is only possible when collectively agreed upon, since after all everyone has the capacity for violence. When someone breaks this agreement, referred to as the social contract, they incite violence upon all. Being the target of violence after causing it is natural. The hard thing is recognizing that there is such a system in place all the time, namely the state’s monopoly on violence, which has to be treated with the utmost care else risk the total decimation of social structure.

    • icepuncher69@sh.itjust.works
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      2
      arrow-down
      11
      ·
      edit-2
      11 months ago

      Bingo!

      Thats the problem with this whole “intolerate the intolerant” debacle. What are calls to violence and segregation against groups of people and what is just “shit i dont agree with”? Theres a subset of people that group both of this thogeter and use this argument to try and censor people that they dont agree with, and its specially bad when governments or companies do this.

      This really shouldnt be thrown around so lightly like if it was an absolute thruth, specially since those that do just whant to push their agenda presenting both it and themselves as fundamentally correct, and taking into account that this was originally a thought experiment and not like an absolutetist declaration.

      One example would be youtube taking away the downvote counter claiming they where protecting small chanels from harasment.

      Edit: Youtube just used that as an excuse to protect its interests and the ones of other companies, not to protect people from harasment by censoring anyone that disagrees with any video. Its doing bad things in the name of intolerating the intolerant and silencing digresion.

      • thesmokingman@programming.dev
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        4
        arrow-down
        1
        ·
        11 months ago

        There’s usually a very clear difference between an attempt to remove or limit a class of people and disagreement with a class of people. It just requires a little bit of analysis.

        Take the conservative Midwest and LGBT for example. For a period of time, the attitude was “while my faith says LGBT might not be great, I won’t stand in the way of equity.” More recently, the attitude has been “because my faith says LGBT might not be great, I’m going to actively remove protections for classes of people.”

        I am neither a member of any faith nor LGBT. To me, it’s pretty fucking obvious the former attitude is tolerant and the latter attitude is intolerant. I am very tolerant of people of faith. I am very intolerant of faith-based government policy that strips my peers of their rights. I am going to actively censor folks that advocate for treating other human beings worse than themselves because that’s fucking dumb. Actively censoring often means having a discussion about why treating someone like shit isn’t tolerant.

        At the end of the day I’m also tolerant of your opinion because you’re not advocating to demean a class of people. I just think it’s really naive to say corporations should allow hate speech and governments should be allowed to remove rights because you want to play centrist.

        • icepuncher69@sh.itjust.works
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          1
          arrow-down
          3
          ·
          edit-2
          11 months ago

          I just think it’s really naive to say corporations should allow hate speech and governments should be allowed to remove rights because you want to play centrist.

          I wrote the complete oposite of that m8… wtf? Corporations shouldnt have a say on what is hate speech because critisisms to them or against their agendas will be gaslighted by them into being hate speech, specially in their platforms, and governments should punish calls to violence/segretation/discrimination in public forums, nothing more, nothing else. I never talked about removing anybodies rights.

      • PeepinGoodArgs@reddthat.com
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        2
        arrow-down
        2
        ·
        11 months ago

        What are calls to violence and segregation against groups of people and what is just “shit i dont agree with”?

        This is really all that hard to answer. I mean, theoretically, it is. Practically, though? There’s an well-researched connection between a group characterized as “invading pests” and political violence against that group, for example. There was an increase in violence against Asians during the coronavirus pandemic, too. And it’d be ridiculous to believe that calling it the “Wuhan flu” wasn’t related to that violence.

        Frankly, many calls to violence that masquerade as “shit I don’t agree with”. Merely calling someone “evil” is, imo, a call to violence. It least justifies it, because evil is not to be persuaded or collaborated with, but driven out and opposed militantly at every step. Especially at the national level, characterizations of evil preclude more deliberative alternatives by default.

        But many people don’t think that way and don’t see the connection between words and violence. I also don’t think many value more peaceful alternatives to violence either…but that’s just my opinion.

        • icepuncher69@sh.itjust.works
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          3
          arrow-down
          1
          ·
          11 months ago

          Honestly no.

          It is easy to diferentiate those things.

          For example;

          “I dont like that x people do z thing because it affects y people in a negative way.”

          This one its not calling for violence against x people. its calling out x people for affecting y people in a negative way. Now if people get violent about it its because there is no denying that there is a number of people that already hate x people and are looking for anu excuse to lash out against x people, and they are gonna end up doing just that whatever they find it or not.

          “I dont like x people because they could be a negative influence in our community.”

          Its a hard one but it is a call to segregation because it is saying that x people dont belong on the comunity that whoever is talking belongs in, now wathever this is true or not, by saying that it is implied that taking them out of the comunity would be a positive thing. So it is a call to do bad things but very subtelly.

          So should the 2nd one be banned? No imho because it is very subtle about it and could be said as a genuine mistake. But it should and will be called out by people that dont agree with it and smart people would see it as a poor argument because it calls for segregation, and while a very bad opinnion it shouldnt be outhright banned, just called out and laughed at.

          Now what should be punished or banned should br saying in a very public forum in front of lots of people something like the following:

          “I dont like X people, they harm the good people of our community and they should be exilled from it and punished for their crimes such as z”

          This one is an obvius one, it calls for violence and segregation for x people, punishment and comes of more as rallying than a genuine argument. So yeah, bann that.

          I made that frase and used it as an example because people that use the “tolerance is intolerance to the intollerant” argument usually use it because they dont tolerate someone else having diferent opinions than them and say they are being intolerant when that is not true. And censoring genuine diferent points of view that do not call for violence or segregation is in my opinion a form of discrimination/segregation. So they themselves are doing what they preach is bad.