Note, I’m neither American, nor heavily in that scene. I’m merely signal boosting what I feel is important information countering lib propaganda.
Why is the name of the victim everywhere but the killer gets anonymity?
Id guess 50501 contracted with off duty cops.
I’m remembering back to the story just a couple of days ago and I’m thinking about all the commenters who immediately accepted the story of the ‘peacekeeper’ guy - and the official line from the police - that Arturo was raising his weapon and heading towards the crowd, so the ‘peacekeeper’ shot “in defence of the crowd”. Many commenters repeated the line he had been, “likely about to do a mass murder - it’s very sad that a bystander died, but they just prevented a shooting spree”. Anyone saying ‘wtf why is the actual killer not arrested’ and suggesting that we only had one side of the story (the killer’s, who the cops were suspiciously immediately siding with) and that there is no proof beyond biased witness claims yet - was being downvoted.
Remember this shit next time you take the word of the police at face value when very few facts are available.
Glad I took the advice of my brown activist friends and didn’t support 50501. They’re a sketch organization from the start.
I understand the need to not give the jackboots an excuse, but WTF is this HOA nonsense at a protest?
They’re doing it everywhere. So they can get pictures of everyone’s face for their Palantir gestapo database
Yeah, given the moment in the US, wearing a mask is just the prudent thing to do. The government’s own agents are doing it.
I dont actually think thats the reason. I think its a, misguided, attempt to be able to say “look, its a peaceful protest!”
That’s certainly the messaging that organizations like Palantir would like you to believe
There’s not much that’s more fascist than cops killing people and then prosecuting the surviving victims. Totally normal in USA.
Zero surprise that normies eat it up. We’re indoctrinated into copaganda our while lives.
cops didn’t fire the shots, volunteers did
Not police, just peace police. ACAB.
Firing peaceful bullets
Yeah send Venmo money to this random QR code! Clowns.
Edit: reports say he was seen move away from the crowd, hid behind a low wall where he removed his rifle from his backpack, and “assumed a firing position” and moved back towards the crowd. No amount of Open Carry allows you to raise that rifle into a ready to shoot position without repercussions.
That smells like a “he’s coming right for us” bullshit report.
So how do you explain away the whole showing up with your rifle hidden in a backpack, and then hiding to take it out. Open carry all you want, why the fuck would you do that in the middle of a tense protest
The clip shows he’s not in a ready to shoot position
What clip, nothing in this post is a clip, nothing in the link is a clip its all images.
https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/47012172/19515897
Literally top comment
Video entirely misses all the context of the moments leading up to the shots being fired. SOLID evidence
Yeah it’s some evidence vs hearsay and speculation…
Yeah send Venmo money to this random QR code!
Yeah actually, who does this actually get Venmo’ed to? The Mastodon post didn’t really clarify that IMO.
Edit: so I haven’t tried this myself, but according to Salt Lake County Corrections, you can donate online, but I’m not 100% sure we have enough information to do so. Also I imagine you’d have to give the State your personal info. Link is below for people who trust the cops more than the QR code. (Personally, my trust for the cops is negative so I trust the random QR code more.)
Link to the reports? Any actual evidence or is it statement by the police?
Nooooooo. It’s a leftist DO NOT BRING FACTS AND LOGIC just support them blindly and “amplify the message” from somewhere you don’t live or know jus because it aligns with your narrative.
Kinda crazy tbh. At least it’s not Twitter I guess.
You clearly have not interacted with anarchists before
A single blurry still doesn’t pose a convincing argument that he was or wasn’t pointing the weapon towards the crowds.
I’ve not seen enough to conclude either way. So many contradicting things.
If you were wanting to assist with security, when someone obviously doing security addresses you then you’d try and comply, and explain your intent. But did the security actually address him? Or did he just run away from a gun pointed at him? Or did he have his gun pointed in the direction of the crowd while moving towards the crowd and ignoring security? Much of this doesn’t make sense.
A single blurry still doesn’t pose a convincing argument that he was or wasn’t pointing the weapon towards the crowds.
We don’t go around making plausible reasons and then asking the victim to prove them wrong. Maybe the killers are lying to cover their ass?
Facts on the ground is: Arturo didn’t shoot anyone, had a right to carry, a bystander was killed by the “good guys” and Arturo was shot himself. Nothing in all of this proves that Arturo was a danger to anyone.
“Innocent until proven guilty” mfs when the accused is a leftist
The victim blaming with assumed narratives no less, is astounding.
What, you expect me to have evidence?
Just because he didn’t shoot anyone, doesn’t mean his alleged actions wouldn’t cause the same reaction or worse from any other reasonable person.
Again, things aren’t lining up with the two sides/stories.
Ye which is why I’m inclined to believe the non-killer’s story rather than the ones with the most incentive to lie
Both have a very high incentive to lie.
Unless more evidence appears, I’m more inclined to believe the person who didn’t shoot anyone, even when they had plenty of opportunity to do so (in self defense no less) and have a history of protecting others.
Yep this really just seems like a tragedy from someone being overzealous. In the end only hurting allies. There’s no good outcome from this. But arguably the worst I think is to demonize an ally in an attempt to deflect blame. By shooting “preemptively” they’re where there blame lays unfortunately.
I don’t necessarily think that there should be imprisonment or jail in this for anyone. It was all completely unintentional. And doesn’t serve any public good. But I think unfortunately a lot of people are going to want someone to crucify or demonize.
And I’m not telling you not to. I’m just saying I’m unconvinced, and without more factual information I can’t make a decision either way.
Security was across the street and started shooting before he ever acknowledged them. They were far enough that it’s conceivable he didn’t hear them at all. He didn’t run until they fired. This is all in the link they provided. It’s a video, not a still.
If you want to know what actually happened, just listen to the cops and then believe the opposite.
I like the spirit, but IMO we need more “on the ground” details to come to an actual conclusion. Cops suck but there are lots of ways to come up with “the opposite story”.
I’m working under “innocent until proven guilty” logic, but as of this posting I absolutely cannot make any positive conclusion about what happened other than the one second video clip posted in the comments.
That clip is already enough to contradict the security dudes’ statement.
Thanks for the link. I hadn’t found it elsewhere.
You don’t have to prove you didn’t do something. The state has to prove that you did do it. We should assume he is innocent in the absence of evidence.
The burden of proof is on the ones accusing and having people detained.
I’ve kept quiet about this online so far, but my local 50501/no kings organizers are dangerously uninformed about organizing protests and haven’t taken any of the experienced local organizer’s advice about security at these events. They’re literally primarily organized on a “liberal women’s” Facebook group. At least in my area, experienced community organizers have been staying well clear of their mess. Let them gather all the white liberals from the suburbs to go kettle themselves on a pedestrian bridge and yell at cars passing them by. They’ll learn why the experienced community defenders don’t want anything to do with them after it’s too late, but it’s not like any of us are surprised by right wingers coopting and declawing a protest movement.
That’s the signal I keep hearing as well
This explains the convulated reporting I suppose
At the least, it’s reasonable to expect someone who claims to be an “armed peacekeeper” to check their background before shooting. I don’t know if that firearms sin is worth criminal charges or not, but it’s bad practice.
Unpopular opinion from someone who hasn’t daily-carried a fully-automatic rifle since leaving the job that required it: if you have a gun, expect to be shot (at). I’m sorry about people being injured and a person’s name being sullied in the process, but I stand by my comment. Untrained randos don’t need to stomp around porting ARs. That’s it; unleash the downvotes.
if you have a gun, expect to be shot (at)
Yeah so the Black Panthers deserved to be shot at because they open-carried to demonstrate their power? Bad take. Needs more information.
Expect =/= deserve
The black panthers open carried in part to expose the hypocrisy of a system that was already indiscriminantly violent towards black people
Yeah so the Black Panthers deserved to be shot at because they open-carried to demonstrate their power?
Yep.
Bad take.
Only if guns are your culture. For the rest of us, there is no safety in a war zone, cosplay or not.
Only if guns are your culture.
Yes guns literally are the culture in that part of the country. That’s my point. No it shouldn’t be that way, but it is. So right now, it’s absolutely not socially or legally abnormal in that part of the country to be open-carrying guns in public. And it doesn’t mean that the area is a warzone.
Yeah so the Black Panthers deserved to be shot at because they open-carried to demonstrate their power?
Yep.
Well I’m glad to know you won’t stand with people who defend themselves against their oppressors. Not sure why you’re in this anarchist community if you’re not even willing to support people who stand against their own oppression but whatever 💩💩💩
Surprisingly, I agree with you. I think jackbooting around with an AR, lefty or not, is generally stupid.
I actually agree with you - I believe that you only pick up a gun when you have a pretty good idea what (or who) you’ll be shooting at very soon.
But then again I did grow up in a fascist state - so that might have something to do with it.
DAMN. Yeah that story slipped past me. Thanks for the post.
Note to self: aim and fire your weapon after being shot.
The witnesses to the event were frightened for their lives and said he raised his gun. Even if he wasn’t intending to do a mass shooting, which I am still unconvinced of, his actions were dangerously stupid and he absolutely should be held responsible for creating a situation in which another person felt they needed to use lethal force.
The witnesses to the event were frightened for their lives and said he raised his gun.
Do you know just how unreliable witness reports in traumatic situations are? We have no clue what actually happened.
We have the video of him running towards the crowd with his gun in a ready position. Whether he’s a leftist or not, his actions were unbelievably stupid and put the lives of everyone around him in danger. Him being shot was totally reasonable, the only tragedy here is that an innocent person died.
His actions were justified given that he was being shot at. I disagree wholly with you. I think the whole US gun-carry society is stupid and causes these stupid deaths, but within that context, I didn’t see him doing anything wrong except trusting libs to act reasonably.
Weird, but watching the video I see him running from something, not towards anyone.
Are you saying when you run away from someone you drop your arms to your side? Anything you are carrying is probably pulled towards your chest so you aren’t unbalanced and trip and fall.
Saying it’s the “ready” position is inferring intent that may not be there.
What intent would you infer from him concealing the weapon and hiding among the crowd?
He was just wrongly shot by a trigger-happy psycho who may be hunting him? If he wanted to shoot people he was well within range to do so. Why would he need to charge the crowd to do that? Why didn’t he shoot anyone after charging them? There is nothing to support the narrative that he was violent.
Wrongly shot? Are you saying it’s unreasonable to see a person come out of an alley with a long rifle they didn’t see before, and assume that person is about to do a mass shooting?
If so, why do you assume it’s unreasonable to think that? And would you still think it’s unreasonable to be worried about a mass shooting if you knew for sure the person was right-wing or MAGA?
Wrongly shot? Are you saying it’s unreasonable to see a person come out of an alley with a long rifle they didn’t see before, and assume that person is about to do a mass shooting?
When open carry is legal, yeah, it’s unreasonable (if you want to argue that allowing people to carry firearms is stupid I’d agree with you, but that was the situation here so the participants need to act appropriately). He wasn’t holding the rifle in a threatening manner or pointing it at the crowd. You can see this in the video. There was nothing to indicate he was about to shoot someone. If he was MAGA or not is irrelevant, carrying a rifle where carrying is legal is not implicitly a threat. There has to be more than that before you start shooting at someone.
I just gotta ask, what do those cops pay? I mean that “what” too because I know we both know cash has neg value. I can tell, you are part of something nefarious. Confess now or they gonna pull that trigger on you. Just Sayan’
After being shot at? “Oh fuck oh fuck oh fuck. Someone is trying to kill me. I gotta hide.”
I’ve considered getting a conceal carry license. My use of a gun, if something were to happen is to try and give me a chance to run away. I don’t want to stand my ground when bullets start flying. I don’t want to kill who is shooting. I just want to get to safety.
So you think concealing your weapon when police are looking for an active shooter is the smart thing to do? Instead of getting rid of the weapon, or even surrendering?
I’m trying to suspend my disbelief that you would do something so unbelievably stupid and ill advised for your own survival. Because somebody who does something like that is someone that doesn’t intend on surviving.
I don’t presume to know what he is thinking.
However, if I went to a protest where:
- I was legally carrying my weapon.
- I did not fire any rounds.
- I heard “drop your weapon” (which I may not know was directed at me.)
- I heard gunfire.
- I ran to safety.
I may not know the “active shooter” was me, because I did not shoot a single round. I could consider putting my weapon away so the police, who have been known to shoot a “good guy with a gun” don’t mistake me for the active shooter.
Ok but if he was armed and this ICE guy took shots at him why didn’t he fire back? That’s the whole point of him having a gun in the first place, right?
It’s really hard to act predictably when there’s people pointing guns at each other.
Like really really difficult. You don’t have any context for decisions, and everything feels kind of surreal. Anyone who says they know how they would act for sure is probably lying. Anyone who says they know for sure how someone else would act is probably talking shit.
Edit: and this isn’t even factoring in panic. Which some people do. It’s a whole thing. It’s maybe why some people get weird and romantic and addicted about it; the kind of ambient possibility that opens up when things are on the knife’s edge of violence. Like it cuts through all the scripts and bullshit.
It has its own scripts of course, if anyone competent is involved. But for someone who has never even considered going off script before, i can see how an unhealthy fascination could arise.
Maybe also why all the innovations in fighting come from queers.
the kind of ambient possibility that opens up when things are on the knife’s edge of violence
Well that perfectly sums up my idle thoughts for the ~20 months I spent on pumps between Iraq and Afghanistan.
Maybe also why all the innovations in fighting come from queers.
I don’t understand what you’re trying to say here.
Oh. Most new doctrine that doesnt suck is from queer people. Sometimes, like the way the doctrine of ‘special forces’ was invented, it is itself a gay thing.
Maybe he panicked? Maybe he didn’t want to hit bystanders. None of us have been shot before, but from all I know, all rational thought easily goes out the window.
It certainly stings a bit more than a light tickle, to be sure
What ice guy?
I just assume every jackbooted thug in the states at the moment belongs to ICE
It is very unclear to me whether the “armed, yellow-vested ‘peacekeepers’” this and other articles keep talking about actually are jackbooted thugs or whether they were affiliated with 50501 and there to protect the protestors. It sounds more like the latter and that this was a case of antifascist friendly-fire.
Wow. Bigot.
American jackbooted thuggery is a diverse rainbow of institutions and traditions. It’s kind of a huge part of american culture. Maybe don’t be so insensitive and flatten entire cultures into charicatures?
You know what, I was being sexist, too. Talking only about the jackbooted thugs, I completely ignored all their jillbooted sisters, and whatever other non-aligned-bootwear compadres as well.
I’m so ashamed. I’m going to get up and clean our litter boxes and really huff that ammonia. It’s not much, but I hope it’s one step towards redemption.
nonaligned
No that would be gay. Not allowed.
