Just saying ‘go online’ and nothing else for starters. I ‘went online’ in the mid-2000s and found nothing but PUA and early manosphere crap that was utterly stupid and did far more damage to me socially in the long term that I didn’t even begin to fix until more than 13 years after the fact. It didn’t bring any positive results either. But due to my circumstances I just really didn’t know any better.
Also when I did ‘go online’ or ‘to bars’ and I described some highly weird experiences that I knew weren’t normal they would twist the events so badly that it makes me wonder if they were the autistic ones and not me.
For example when I was 22 years old, I went to a bar and started talking to this woman. She was older than me and kinda vague, lied to me about her name, lied about her martial status (before taking everything back, but never telling me her real name). This was in Dubai I might add, so the social dynamic is a very different place than it would be in north america… and would also really come back to bite me later. The only shit I had to go by was offering her a drink at the start…
But here is a kicker… no one ever bought her a drink before. Apparently she literally did not watch any western media or ignored whatever was on screen. Because the whole concept of anyone walking up to anyone in a bar and buying them a drink was a legit alien experience to her.
Long story short… I saw her a second time a few weeks later at the same bar and she had some friends with her. She treated me like I was an ATM and basically thought that as long as she groped at me inappropriately (she even grabbed my head and shoved it against her breasts, forcibly I might add since I tried to resist) she could ask for meals and drinks and spending money for her and her friends (without the slightest hint of reciprocal sex). However she and friends were giddy and laughing while doing it.
I described the situation to them as I am here without mentioning the whole ‘this person never had a person buy her a drink’ but I DID add it later.
However this did nothing to convince them that they were trying to manipulate them, and they insisted that actually I should have gone for it and lost my virginity in a threesome with some MILFs that day. I am mildly exaggerating, but that was the gist of it.
BTW, just as an FYI, in many bars I went to in Dubai, they were lousy with sex workers. I did have plenty of girls touch me and act all giddy (but not ask for anything) and offer me ‘massages’ (which is a thinly veiled euphemism for sex in case it wasn’t obvious) for reasonable prices. The guys I was talking to weren’t in the middle east and just could not wrap their heads around my experiences being different from theirs.
Even with going online, they said nothing about where to go, how to make a good profile, what pictures to use or anything. Even trying to message people they insisted that you must never say anything other than ‘hi’ at first. This is even when they actually showed me what they did and had giant text walls that they sent detailing whatever was on her profile. I wasn’t able to replicate those, but their advice was just designed to make me waste my time.
Long story short. I am 41 now. Not a virgin, but dealing with a lot of bullshit. I dont care who I tell this to, but I am prepping to see a sexual therapist. I am practically writing my autobiography so I can just give it to them and bring them up to speed so I don’t waste tons of time and money just going on and on with the sessions. I need actual help and not just someone to talk to.
I’m sorry you had that experience. I had a similar, but different, experience. You keep referring to “they” who were giving you advice - who were these people and where did you meet them? It seems like this was a consistent group?
I eventually found some good advice, which boils down to:
Be honest. Be honest with people about who you are and what you are interested in. Some people might not like what you are offering. Some might even be offended. But this is all fine, as long as you are honest and respectful and talk to each woman with the assumption that the two of you are on the same team of figuring out if you are interested in each other.
Improve yourself. For most guys with dating issues, this includes things like going to therapy, building a healthy social life, being physically healthy, and generally being a happy person.
Talk to lots of women. People are different and want different things. In order to find the women who want what you have to offer, who are themselves offering what you want yourself, you need to talk to a lot of women.
Improving at these things is best accomplished from a place of a positive mindset, good mental health, and with a strong support system.
but holy SHIT did he make me look bad. I need to mention that everything he said was a lie. and I even pointed out to him then and there that going to that group was his idea, not mine, and I pointed out to him that everyone around him who was in a relationship did not do anything remotely close to what he was saying.
Then he admitted to me that A: He never had a girlfriend, B: Never dated, C: had no idea how people actually met, and D: Was possibly a virgin. In short, I was extensively more experienced than he was, despite being from overseas.
I could go on forever, but I will stop here (gotta save it for my therapist). You actually did offer some real advice, and I did go out on some brunches on meetup.com and I am much calmer than I was before, and the girls there did talk to me far more than they did previously. Doesn’t mean I am going to getting laid left and right, but it is a much better start, and I actually have far more support from my job and the few family and friends that I have contact with, I had to cut out so many people from my life it isn’t funny.
Personally, I grew up emotionally disconnected, unsupported, socially isolated, and bullied. Like, kids at school making fun of me for wearing clothes that hadn’t been washed, because my parents either didn’t notice or didn’t care. I ended up depressed, socially anxious, and socially stunted as a result. For years as a kid, I prayed for the day that I would have the courage to pick the lock on my dad’s gun and blow my own brains out.
Luckily, I moved out of my folks house at 18 to go to college, and have barely been back since. I avoid spending time with my parents as much as possible, since I seem to have pavlovian conditioning such that being around them triggers my depression, and leads to excessive alcohol consumption.
After agonizing about it for years, I finally lost my virginity at 23. After that, I failed to sleep with another girl for years. At 29, I panicked, said FUCK THIS!! and decided to do whatever it took. So I found a paint-by-numbers guide to getting laid on Tinder on the internet, followed it to the T, and managed to actually start sleeping with women.
I’ll say, the experience made me happier and changed my life for the better. It made me a better person. But at the same time, it didn’t solve all my problems. And also, the couple months of effort that I put in at 29 was really just the culmination of work I’d been putting into myself and my life since I was 13. I still have some heavy emotional problems I’m dealing with - but feeling sexually desireable isn’t one of them anymore, and I’m grateful for that.
To me, it sounds like you’ve been through the shit, and you are taking the right steps. You’re cutting out people who make you miserable - that’s excellent. You are going out to meetups and meeting people. Awesome. You are going to therapy - that is fucking amazing. Seriously, the fact that you’ve been knocked down so many times and are still getting back up is something to be proud of.
Our culture is really weird about sex and dating, so it is really hard to find good advice. I think my best advice is to focus on improving yourself to be more datable for a while (like, yeah, it’s okay to want more people to be into you!), and then to take a break and focus on other things, before coming back to it. You get better at things when you focus on them. But you also need to relax and be happy and not be one dimensional. So alternate back and forth, hopefully without burning out.
I recommend you spend as much time as possible meeting new people and cultivating friendships. Dating and improving yourself is so much easier when you have a deep and wide network of friends to lean on.
For a macro view of how to become a more datable man, I recommend the book Models by Mark Manson. It boils down to “don’t be needy”. If you want to know how to not be needy, you might have heard of the next book he wrote to answer that question - The Subtle Art of Not Giving a Fuck.
If you have problems moving things forward with women - anything from introducing yourself to asking them on a date to getting them into bed - the best advice I ever heard is “stop trying to be smooth.” You are autistic. This is actually a superpower in dating, because you will have a hard time sending and receiving the subconscious, unspoken cues most people give each other. Instead, you use your autism to be direct - tell girls exactly what you are thinking and exactly what you want. Ask them what they are thinking and what they want when you are uncertain. Just be autistically honest. As long as you are honest and respectful, just say anything that pops into your head. “Hey, I saw you over here and thought you were really pretty. What’s up? I’m John.” “I’m glad you agreed to go on this date with me, but I have to say, I’m kinda nervous.” “You have a beautiful smile and it makes me want to kiss you.” “I’m having a good time with you tonight. Do you wanna go back to my place?” “You seem nervous. Are you okay?”
At the same time, learning to flirt and communicate effectively is a process that doesn’t happen overnight. To learn how to flirt, I recommend a book called “The Inner Game of Tennis”. Read it, and everywhere it says “Tennis” just replaced that with “flirting”.
Thanks. I did hear about some of those books, but I am VERY wary of a lot of things that have a PUA feel to them, since the PUA stuff has been the biggest problem to me in my social development (as I noted) and I am very hesitant to return to any such material as long as I know they might carry that label. I did read The Charisma Myth (and I need too look at it back again), but I will look them up. Models kinda has that trigger to me right now. But it could be that I am confusing it for something else since I did hear it.
you did mention Inner Game of Tennis, but I assume that you are the one who replaced ‘flirting’ with it, and it can work. I am not a 100% beginner, and like I said, there’s been some very strange things happening to me lately, and they’re kinda on the good side… but I can’t be sure yet. Seeing your results in finding sex on tinder is encouraging, but my experience with Tinder has been very discouraging. I went on Tinder from May to November 2015 and I only got one date, one other girl to date, and after I turned 32 in October, despite expanding my demographic to include everyone from 18 to 35, I got ZERO matches despite hundreds of swipes. It was almost like I had expired after 32. But seeing you get what you wanted after just a few months was good… but for me, due to a plethora of other factors (I was stalked and cyberbullied by many PUAs online and they even harassed my family for months. One guy was actively trying to get on my facebook page for 4 YEARS after the fact) due to my panic factor probably being far, far, far higher than others and my sheer insecurity at being an early something wanting a younger girlfriend. I hope that this time it doesn’t take me 18 months to find a girlfriend or go on dates. I was mostly doing ‘day game’ and ‘night game’ which was never the thing for me and the absolute worst crap I ever did. Also I had a tremendous amount of stress at my old job when my emotional state became apparent and they just tried to fire me immediately when I mentioned I was having dating issues and my whole issues with sex. People didn’t talk much about sex at the job, but when they did they mentioned dicer stuff than that… but apparently I struck a nerve and everyone thought I was a predator and needed to be gotten rid of immediately. They spent nearly 3 years trying to firing me and the stress from all that was physically killing me like cancer.
Fun fact: It was only when the stress got so bad that upon my Union representive’s recommendation that I go on a sick leave was when I was finally relaxed enough and… yeah, that’s when the one girl I met said yes and we went dating. She was 19 and I was 33, but you’d think I would be the more mature one but… nope. She was in full control of absolutely everything. In fact she was kinda surprised how I managed to reach my age and maintain a positive disposition towards people after a lifetime of suffering from incredible abuse, as she would have expected me to be an intensely closed-off person if I was ‘normal’ under the circumstances. I wanna make it clear that this girl did more for me in the few months we dated than anyone else in my life did in decades, and I will never forget her and I will never say that I don’t feel anything towards her anymore, because she is that good. This is considering when I was 25 I lost my virginity to a 31 year old… virgin girl, and that experience was one of the most shattering and destructive experiences I had in my life. Even one of the PUAs I spoke to (the type of guy who I legit believed really did bang over a 100 girls before the age of 24) said that if he had an experience like that now, he would give up on women and becoming a monk. That experience is also one reason why I am kinda hesitant to date someone older than me even though it was probably that she was a one-off and not all girls older than me are like that.
I am mildly apprehensive about online stuff, but at the same time I do want to try. While before I was focused principally on younger girls, and while I am going to be expanding my horizons and putting my age range from 25-45, I don’t want to be left out by any group. I had a lot of problems in my life and I felt robbed and left out of so much time for a million reasons that I just feel like any group that puts in an age limit is a personal affront to me, even if it isn’t that.
My current job is also highly supportive and I am going to get my sex therapist through it. I don’t talk about dating on the job, but I have a feeling that if I did bring up the topic to my boss, he would be OK with it. So I know I won’t be under ANY stress from my job, and that stress along with other stuff in my life previously is what was the biggest hinderance in finding a date/girlfriend.
I think you do kind of need to get over resistance to engaging with some PUA material. The reality is, male sexuality is demonized in mainstream society, and so any frank discussion of how to improve your dating life as a man gets pushed underground. It’s like buying drugs - there are lots of people in the drug world who are honest and reasonable, and just want to help others have a good time and make some money. But because their product is illegal, they are always going to be mixed in with seedy crooks. So try to think of “PUA” stuff as more of an ecosystem than a monolith. There are some people giving really terrible advice. Some people who have some good tips mixed in with their toxic bullshit. And a few people, often hidden, who have a lot of really good, solid advice that can help you.
Manson was a PUA. He blogged for several years about men’s dating advice, refining his ideas until he published Models. The latest edition is the most polished, and gives an excellent and fairly obvious framework for becoming a more datable person. If you read the forward to this edition, it is fairly obvious that his ideas evolved somewhat between the first edition and the second. The impression I get is that he wanted to rewrite several parts to emphasize the idea that becoming more dateable is about becoming more emotionally open and becoming a better person. But also the impression I get is that he simply removed some of his more controversial statements and coded others, because he was trying to sanitize his past for his move into mainstream writing for the upcoming publication of his next book. If you are hesitant to engage with his content because of his PUA history, I recommend reading a book called “Confessions of a Pickup Artist Chaser”, which was written by a female feminist, kink-friendly, rationalist-adjacent blogger. Her blog and the comments on it were also a very good read on the intersection between kink, feminism, and pickup - but unfortunately it doesn’t seem to exist anymore, and it looks like it was taken down from the wayback machine.
Anyway - you should read Models. Manson is a smart guy, and the title is a clever joke. It is meant to draw in the typical guy who would normally take PUA advice - the kind of guy who wants to fuck models - but then the book quickly explains what the title actually means. It is about creating mental models of what it means to be an appealing and dateable man. The book is, in large part, a response to the toxic pickup culture that Manson was a part of, and his attempt to create an alternative that is less toxic.
Tinder can be frustrating because you put in all your effort up front. Being successful on Tinder is all about having good pictures, and it can be a lot of time and effort to get good pictures. Like I said, my success on Tinder was a few months of direct effort, but 15 years of indirect effort. The indirect effort was all about cultivating a good lifestyle where I was physically healthy, had overcome some of my social insecurities, and was doing cool things I actually cared about. The direct effort was getting a haircut, putting on some nicer clothes, and shooting photos where I looked like a cool, confident dude who would be a good fuck. I can send you the guide I followed. Again, the author had a history in the PUA/red pill space, but has since renounced most of that.
So, there are 4 major arenas of dating that we talk about in men’s dating advice. Daygame/cold approach, night game, online, and social circle.
In my opinion, the PUA advice emphasizes CA and NG too much, when most guys have the most success in OLD and SC. I think this is because CA and NG are harder, and so guys like to talk about how successful they are at them to prove what hot stuff they are. If you don’t have much experience, you should make things as easy as possible so you can get experience.
In OLD, you know that every girl you message or swipe on is looking to date - that’s why they are there - so you are absolved of any feeling that asking a girl out or flirting would be inappropriate. If you get a rejection - even a harsh rejection - it is usually just through text so it stings less. And if you have a good profile, it is easy to set up multiple dates each week, so you can get a ton of experience really quickly.
Social circle is where you meet girls via mutual friends or in clubs or hobbies. In social circle, you benefit a lot from already being a known entity - a girl you meet already knows other people trust you, so she is more likely to trust you, and therefore be open to your advances. Plus, you tend to be more confident around your friends, or while you are doing something you enjoy and are good at - and confidence is sexy.
DG/CA and NG have their place, imo. First, they are good if you just want to make a hobby of chasing girls. If you just find you really enjoy walking up to strangers and introducing yourself, then go ahead and do it. Also, if you really want to date/have sex with the hottest, coolest women, then you will need to do pursue these avenues. First of all, because these women already have tons of suitors online and very booked out social lives, so if you don’t introduce yourself when you randomly see them you will never get the chance otherwise. And second, because walking up to a stranger and straight up asking if they are interested in you takes some balls, ie, confidence. And, again, confidence is attractive. Getting good at these avenues can also be good because then you are open to opportunities which arise even if you don’t specifically spend time pursuing them. For example, if you are spending time in a nightclub or a coffee shop just as part of your day to day life, and then you see a cute girl you are interested in, having DG/NG skills lets you confidently make a move on her rather than nervously glancing at her until you or she leaves and you think of what could have been. But finally, really the most important reason for most guys to do CA/NG is simply to overcome social anxiety and gain confidence - but this is for guys who are somewhat experienced already, who want to take their dating to the next level.
In general, I would recommend not talking about your dating life at work, at least until you are more experienced. It can be dangerous for your employment status, as you already know. Keep your conversations about dating to close friends who you can trust.
(part 1 of 2)
I need to save what I am writing here (since Lemmy is going to go down soon, sadly) and I need to save this for my autobiography for my therapist.
I am going to just write it right now. The person I was referring to was my brother. I recently 100% cut off my brother from my life and I will no longer speak to him. This isn’t something I have done on impulse, but it was more than 20 years coming. I simply had enough of his bullying, his twisting of everything I say, his accusations about me to my face, and countless other crap that I really, REALLY don’t want to get into. I even went so far as to tell both my parents that ‘This man is your son, but he is not my brother.’ He has always given me sabotaging advice and just stressed me out every single time we spoke, to the point where I would just lose it (again, almost every time) when talking to him and he is wholly and completely unaware and simultaneously does not care what an effect his words have on my emotional and mental state. I’ve been bled my heart out for over 15 years trying to show him how to communicate with me and how he is making me feel, but it is always ‘ummm, OK?’ and then he immediately returns to his old ways.
Like when I was trying to go out and meet people close to ten years ago, every single call from his was such a massive emotional drain that I could not longer socialize with people without getting them to be weirded out and straight up clam up when talking to me. One issue I had is simply getting girls (and I am referring to everyone, from 18 to 60) to just talk to me. The advise that he and others gave (and there are others) was ‘you have two ears and one mouth, listen twice as much as you speak’. This is all well and good… but if the girls are consistently clamming up and outright refusing to speak, it is kinda difficult to listen to pure silence. There are a lot of nasty people out there and constantly being rendered in a poor emotional state does not make it easier.
One other thing about him (and others, including relatives that I also had to cut out of my life) is the sheer contrarian nature of every discussion we have. I want girls, but they said ‘you gotta fix yourself up 100% first before going out’ or ‘you should ignore them and focus on (insert thing here) the girls will come by themselves and/or a waste of time’. None of this addresses that every single person saying it to me has NEVER practiced what they preached. They are always doing multiple things at the same time and going out and meeting people while doing this or that. The only take away is ‘fuck you, buddy, you don’t deserve anything. Just work for table scraps and maybe if you’re lucky a prostitute will fuck you for double price’.
I mean I mentioned my life in Dubai in brief. I need to also mention just how incredibly bizarre my life was there. I wrote over 12,000 words just detailing my first job in Dubai when I was growing up. If I had to describe all I remember we’d be going into novel length territory. On top of that, my brother (and other siblings) all went to college as young as 16 and did so overseas, away from home and my parents, meaning they got a taste of independence and the ability to explore and formulate their own independent lives very young. For me? My brother hinted that he had had fairly extensive sexual experiences well before the age of 20, and he had effectively done it all way before he was 23. But for me? I didn’t even leave home until I was 23, and I didn’t get my own place to finally stay in until I was 26 (going on 27). On top of that living with my parents was a choking experience. I can’t describe just how controlling they were on every single aspect of my life they had. They also simply did not understand even why I wanted to do things on my own, and I am not referring to major events, I am referring to really minor stuff like buying my own clothes without my mom effectively being the one to control what I wear and what I try on.
You might say ‘but dude! You’re a grown ass man! How the fuck did your mother just utterly ignore your expressions that you just want to buy your own shoes?’ Simply, they A: Straight up ignored it, saying ‘yes of course you can’ and then not, or saying ‘yes, of course you can, you are in charge, I am just there to offer you feedback’ when it is patently not true. Also she did not understand that her simple presence in following me around was highly distracting and disconcerting when I was trying to do basic things.
Even more on basic stuff. When I started working in Dubai, there were dress codes at the job that I had to adhere to. Now I am an autistic person and I grew up with schools that all demanded uniforms, so this was not a difficult thing for me to do… but for her? Every time I had to dress up it was a fight. The rules could not be more clear: You wear a shirt AND a tie to work. But she insisted that ‘your brother in Texas, they don’t wear ties there. in fact, they wear T-shirts and jeans. That looks better on you, and you are a young man, so dress like a young man!’ and she would actively fight every single step of the way until I just gave up and wore something entirely contrary to what the rules demanded. It was only when I was threatened to be fired by the manager who sent me back home that she finally let go of that… but only that one time. Every single interview it was the same fucking thing. She would insist on dressing me up like I was a toddler, and always with the same ‘In America they don’t…’ and no amount of calm and rational ‘but we are in Dubai, it isn’t the same here!’ ever got to her.
Can you imagine being someone in your early 20s and literally having to throw temper tantrums in order to just wear work-appropriate clothes every single time? With nothing carrying over to the next incident? Meaning you have to repeat the whole thing like a tired rerun every time. I have an anxiety disorder and this means when I get anxious or worked up, I REALLY get worked up, and it can hours or even a whole day for my adrenaline levels to come back down. This means that I can no longer maintain a calm demeanour when going to a job interview or to work, and this is absolutely noticeable. And as you can tell, the employer doesn’t give a fuck, no one is going to respect someone whose mother has THAT much control over them when they are at that age.
You mentioned having a positive mindset, good mental health, and a strong support system. I had none at the time. Getting a positive mindset is very difficult when everyone around is always against you and on the side everyone telling you off, and it does nothing for your mental health, and I had an oppositional system. It was actually a miracle how I managed to do what I have done in my life with all that bullshit going around me. Again, I am not expecting girls to say ‘hmm, let me cut this guy some slack and fuck him’ that’s not how it works, nor would I want girls to give me pity lays or other such stuff.
And being honest about intentions is good… but you need to know how to properly be honest about your intentions in order for them to come off properly. Like when I came to Canada, I wanted to date girls a little younger than me (I was 24, so around 19-21), but even at my tender young age people saw that as extensively creepy, almost in the exact same that someone in their 50s targeting girls that young is seen as creepy. The thing is those very same people, and I have seen them, think nothing of the numerous people they know that DO have large age gaps in relationships with 10, 15, or even 20 year differences, but they did have an issue with me saying I wanted a younger girlfriend.
So you might think ‘maybe it is because you want to make that specific thing happen while for the others it just fell into place?’ I need to say something: I’ve seen how many of those others guys work. It rarely ‘just falls into place’, there is some effort that goes into it even if they aren’t conscious of it. Secondly, the reason why I wanted a younger girlfriend is not just because I wanted a younger girlfriend, I wanted a younger social circle. Period. The reason for this is due to the isolation I had and extensive controls, I wanted to have the experiences that I wanted to have at a much younger age with people of that age. I’ve also been accused of having a mid-life crisis. This isn’t the case. If that was the case it would be my 5th mid-life crisis so far, that’s not how they work.
Of course a lot of the stuff I did backfired badly. The younger crowd I did hang out with when I was in my early 30s (and I quickly moved away from) were principally a bunch of stoners, idiots, pathological liars, and directionless drifters. There was one stoner guy (who is one of the ‘them’ who gave me terrible advice) who said he would help me get laid and find a girlfriend and said he would be my wingman… only for him to do a 180 in the three outings we did together, make a completely fool out of me (not intentionally, he was just that inept and stupid) and even paint all my good characteristics as being douchey.
Like those people had gaming nights on weekends… and I made them some really, really fancy pizza. I pride myself on being a very accomplished cook. The pizza I made used a slow-rise New York style pizza dough that needs 3 day cold-rise and I made some sauce that has to be tasted to be believed. Despite this, when he belatedly ‘introduced’ to me a group organizer of a BDSM group (yes, it was his idea) he just spoke ‘this guy is freaking out all the time and thinks he can just walk up to a girl and get a date. I tried telling him, you need to spend a few months at least in a group and make friends with all her friends before you even talk to her, but he keeps talking about PUA and stuff… but he made a nice pizza it was OK I guess’ I am paraphrasing…
Frankly you sound like you have a great chance of moving past this, and it’s not weird to need some help or feedback from others, most of us do. It’s a shame the folks you found previously were such idiots, lots of people are really unqualified to give advice there. Keep pushing!
Just saying ‘go online’ and nothing else for starters. I ‘went online’ in the mid-2000s and found nothing but PUA and early manosphere crap that was utterly stupid and did far more damage to me socially in the long term that I didn’t even begin to fix until more than 13 years after the fact. It didn’t bring any positive results either. But due to my circumstances I just really didn’t know any better.
Also when I did ‘go online’ or ‘to bars’ and I described some highly weird experiences that I knew weren’t normal they would twist the events so badly that it makes me wonder if they were the autistic ones and not me.
For example when I was 22 years old, I went to a bar and started talking to this woman. She was older than me and kinda vague, lied to me about her name, lied about her martial status (before taking everything back, but never telling me her real name). This was in Dubai I might add, so the social dynamic is a very different place than it would be in north america… and would also really come back to bite me later. The only shit I had to go by was offering her a drink at the start…
But here is a kicker… no one ever bought her a drink before. Apparently she literally did not watch any western media or ignored whatever was on screen. Because the whole concept of anyone walking up to anyone in a bar and buying them a drink was a legit alien experience to her.
Long story short… I saw her a second time a few weeks later at the same bar and she had some friends with her. She treated me like I was an ATM and basically thought that as long as she groped at me inappropriately (she even grabbed my head and shoved it against her breasts, forcibly I might add since I tried to resist) she could ask for meals and drinks and spending money for her and her friends (without the slightest hint of reciprocal sex). However she and friends were giddy and laughing while doing it.
I described the situation to them as I am here without mentioning the whole ‘this person never had a person buy her a drink’ but I DID add it later.
However this did nothing to convince them that they were trying to manipulate them, and they insisted that actually I should have gone for it and lost my virginity in a threesome with some MILFs that day. I am mildly exaggerating, but that was the gist of it.
BTW, just as an FYI, in many bars I went to in Dubai, they were lousy with sex workers. I did have plenty of girls touch me and act all giddy (but not ask for anything) and offer me ‘massages’ (which is a thinly veiled euphemism for sex in case it wasn’t obvious) for reasonable prices. The guys I was talking to weren’t in the middle east and just could not wrap their heads around my experiences being different from theirs.
Even with going online, they said nothing about where to go, how to make a good profile, what pictures to use or anything. Even trying to message people they insisted that you must never say anything other than ‘hi’ at first. This is even when they actually showed me what they did and had giant text walls that they sent detailing whatever was on her profile. I wasn’t able to replicate those, but their advice was just designed to make me waste my time.
Long story short. I am 41 now. Not a virgin, but dealing with a lot of bullshit. I dont care who I tell this to, but I am prepping to see a sexual therapist. I am practically writing my autobiography so I can just give it to them and bring them up to speed so I don’t waste tons of time and money just going on and on with the sessions. I need actual help and not just someone to talk to.
I’m sorry you had that experience. I had a similar, but different, experience. You keep referring to “they” who were giving you advice - who were these people and where did you meet them? It seems like this was a consistent group?
I eventually found some good advice, which boils down to:
Be honest. Be honest with people about who you are and what you are interested in. Some people might not like what you are offering. Some might even be offended. But this is all fine, as long as you are honest and respectful and talk to each woman with the assumption that the two of you are on the same team of figuring out if you are interested in each other.
Improve yourself. For most guys with dating issues, this includes things like going to therapy, building a healthy social life, being physically healthy, and generally being a happy person.
Talk to lots of women. People are different and want different things. In order to find the women who want what you have to offer, who are themselves offering what you want yourself, you need to talk to a lot of women.
Improving at these things is best accomplished from a place of a positive mindset, good mental health, and with a strong support system.
(Part 2 of 2)
but holy SHIT did he make me look bad. I need to mention that everything he said was a lie. and I even pointed out to him then and there that going to that group was his idea, not mine, and I pointed out to him that everyone around him who was in a relationship did not do anything remotely close to what he was saying.
Then he admitted to me that A: He never had a girlfriend, B: Never dated, C: had no idea how people actually met, and D: Was possibly a virgin. In short, I was extensively more experienced than he was, despite being from overseas.
I could go on forever, but I will stop here (gotta save it for my therapist). You actually did offer some real advice, and I did go out on some brunches on meetup.com and I am much calmer than I was before, and the girls there did talk to me far more than they did previously. Doesn’t mean I am going to getting laid left and right, but it is a much better start, and I actually have far more support from my job and the few family and friends that I have contact with, I had to cut out so many people from my life it isn’t funny.
Well, I gotta say, that was a wild ride.
Personally, I grew up emotionally disconnected, unsupported, socially isolated, and bullied. Like, kids at school making fun of me for wearing clothes that hadn’t been washed, because my parents either didn’t notice or didn’t care. I ended up depressed, socially anxious, and socially stunted as a result. For years as a kid, I prayed for the day that I would have the courage to pick the lock on my dad’s gun and blow my own brains out.
Luckily, I moved out of my folks house at 18 to go to college, and have barely been back since. I avoid spending time with my parents as much as possible, since I seem to have pavlovian conditioning such that being around them triggers my depression, and leads to excessive alcohol consumption.
After agonizing about it for years, I finally lost my virginity at 23. After that, I failed to sleep with another girl for years. At 29, I panicked, said FUCK THIS!! and decided to do whatever it took. So I found a paint-by-numbers guide to getting laid on Tinder on the internet, followed it to the T, and managed to actually start sleeping with women.
I’ll say, the experience made me happier and changed my life for the better. It made me a better person. But at the same time, it didn’t solve all my problems. And also, the couple months of effort that I put in at 29 was really just the culmination of work I’d been putting into myself and my life since I was 13. I still have some heavy emotional problems I’m dealing with - but feeling sexually desireable isn’t one of them anymore, and I’m grateful for that.
To me, it sounds like you’ve been through the shit, and you are taking the right steps. You’re cutting out people who make you miserable - that’s excellent. You are going out to meetups and meeting people. Awesome. You are going to therapy - that is fucking amazing. Seriously, the fact that you’ve been knocked down so many times and are still getting back up is something to be proud of.
Our culture is really weird about sex and dating, so it is really hard to find good advice. I think my best advice is to focus on improving yourself to be more datable for a while (like, yeah, it’s okay to want more people to be into you!), and then to take a break and focus on other things, before coming back to it. You get better at things when you focus on them. But you also need to relax and be happy and not be one dimensional. So alternate back and forth, hopefully without burning out.
I recommend you spend as much time as possible meeting new people and cultivating friendships. Dating and improving yourself is so much easier when you have a deep and wide network of friends to lean on.
For a macro view of how to become a more datable man, I recommend the book Models by Mark Manson. It boils down to “don’t be needy”. If you want to know how to not be needy, you might have heard of the next book he wrote to answer that question - The Subtle Art of Not Giving a Fuck.
If you have problems moving things forward with women - anything from introducing yourself to asking them on a date to getting them into bed - the best advice I ever heard is “stop trying to be smooth.” You are autistic. This is actually a superpower in dating, because you will have a hard time sending and receiving the subconscious, unspoken cues most people give each other. Instead, you use your autism to be direct - tell girls exactly what you are thinking and exactly what you want. Ask them what they are thinking and what they want when you are uncertain. Just be autistically honest. As long as you are honest and respectful, just say anything that pops into your head. “Hey, I saw you over here and thought you were really pretty. What’s up? I’m John.” “I’m glad you agreed to go on this date with me, but I have to say, I’m kinda nervous.” “You have a beautiful smile and it makes me want to kiss you.” “I’m having a good time with you tonight. Do you wanna go back to my place?” “You seem nervous. Are you okay?”
At the same time, learning to flirt and communicate effectively is a process that doesn’t happen overnight. To learn how to flirt, I recommend a book called “The Inner Game of Tennis”. Read it, and everywhere it says “Tennis” just replaced that with “flirting”.
Thanks. I did hear about some of those books, but I am VERY wary of a lot of things that have a PUA feel to them, since the PUA stuff has been the biggest problem to me in my social development (as I noted) and I am very hesitant to return to any such material as long as I know they might carry that label. I did read The Charisma Myth (and I need too look at it back again), but I will look them up. Models kinda has that trigger to me right now. But it could be that I am confusing it for something else since I did hear it.
you did mention Inner Game of Tennis, but I assume that you are the one who replaced ‘flirting’ with it, and it can work. I am not a 100% beginner, and like I said, there’s been some very strange things happening to me lately, and they’re kinda on the good side… but I can’t be sure yet. Seeing your results in finding sex on tinder is encouraging, but my experience with Tinder has been very discouraging. I went on Tinder from May to November 2015 and I only got one date, one other girl to date, and after I turned 32 in October, despite expanding my demographic to include everyone from 18 to 35, I got ZERO matches despite hundreds of swipes. It was almost like I had expired after 32. But seeing you get what you wanted after just a few months was good… but for me, due to a plethora of other factors (I was stalked and cyberbullied by many PUAs online and they even harassed my family for months. One guy was actively trying to get on my facebook page for 4 YEARS after the fact) due to my panic factor probably being far, far, far higher than others and my sheer insecurity at being an early something wanting a younger girlfriend. I hope that this time it doesn’t take me 18 months to find a girlfriend or go on dates. I was mostly doing ‘day game’ and ‘night game’ which was never the thing for me and the absolute worst crap I ever did. Also I had a tremendous amount of stress at my old job when my emotional state became apparent and they just tried to fire me immediately when I mentioned I was having dating issues and my whole issues with sex. People didn’t talk much about sex at the job, but when they did they mentioned dicer stuff than that… but apparently I struck a nerve and everyone thought I was a predator and needed to be gotten rid of immediately. They spent nearly 3 years trying to firing me and the stress from all that was physically killing me like cancer.
Fun fact: It was only when the stress got so bad that upon my Union representive’s recommendation that I go on a sick leave was when I was finally relaxed enough and… yeah, that’s when the one girl I met said yes and we went dating. She was 19 and I was 33, but you’d think I would be the more mature one but… nope. She was in full control of absolutely everything. In fact she was kinda surprised how I managed to reach my age and maintain a positive disposition towards people after a lifetime of suffering from incredible abuse, as she would have expected me to be an intensely closed-off person if I was ‘normal’ under the circumstances. I wanna make it clear that this girl did more for me in the few months we dated than anyone else in my life did in decades, and I will never forget her and I will never say that I don’t feel anything towards her anymore, because she is that good. This is considering when I was 25 I lost my virginity to a 31 year old… virgin girl, and that experience was one of the most shattering and destructive experiences I had in my life. Even one of the PUAs I spoke to (the type of guy who I legit believed really did bang over a 100 girls before the age of 24) said that if he had an experience like that now, he would give up on women and becoming a monk. That experience is also one reason why I am kinda hesitant to date someone older than me even though it was probably that she was a one-off and not all girls older than me are like that.
I am mildly apprehensive about online stuff, but at the same time I do want to try. While before I was focused principally on younger girls, and while I am going to be expanding my horizons and putting my age range from 25-45, I don’t want to be left out by any group. I had a lot of problems in my life and I felt robbed and left out of so much time for a million reasons that I just feel like any group that puts in an age limit is a personal affront to me, even if it isn’t that.
My current job is also highly supportive and I am going to get my sex therapist through it. I don’t talk about dating on the job, but I have a feeling that if I did bring up the topic to my boss, he would be OK with it. So I know I won’t be under ANY stress from my job, and that stress along with other stuff in my life previously is what was the biggest hinderance in finding a date/girlfriend.
I think you do kind of need to get over resistance to engaging with some PUA material. The reality is, male sexuality is demonized in mainstream society, and so any frank discussion of how to improve your dating life as a man gets pushed underground. It’s like buying drugs - there are lots of people in the drug world who are honest and reasonable, and just want to help others have a good time and make some money. But because their product is illegal, they are always going to be mixed in with seedy crooks. So try to think of “PUA” stuff as more of an ecosystem than a monolith. There are some people giving really terrible advice. Some people who have some good tips mixed in with their toxic bullshit. And a few people, often hidden, who have a lot of really good, solid advice that can help you.
Manson was a PUA. He blogged for several years about men’s dating advice, refining his ideas until he published Models. The latest edition is the most polished, and gives an excellent and fairly obvious framework for becoming a more datable person. If you read the forward to this edition, it is fairly obvious that his ideas evolved somewhat between the first edition and the second. The impression I get is that he wanted to rewrite several parts to emphasize the idea that becoming more dateable is about becoming more emotionally open and becoming a better person. But also the impression I get is that he simply removed some of his more controversial statements and coded others, because he was trying to sanitize his past for his move into mainstream writing for the upcoming publication of his next book. If you are hesitant to engage with his content because of his PUA history, I recommend reading a book called “Confessions of a Pickup Artist Chaser”, which was written by a female feminist, kink-friendly, rationalist-adjacent blogger. Her blog and the comments on it were also a very good read on the intersection between kink, feminism, and pickup - but unfortunately it doesn’t seem to exist anymore, and it looks like it was taken down from the wayback machine.
Anyway - you should read Models. Manson is a smart guy, and the title is a clever joke. It is meant to draw in the typical guy who would normally take PUA advice - the kind of guy who wants to fuck models - but then the book quickly explains what the title actually means. It is about creating mental models of what it means to be an appealing and dateable man. The book is, in large part, a response to the toxic pickup culture that Manson was a part of, and his attempt to create an alternative that is less toxic.
Tinder can be frustrating because you put in all your effort up front. Being successful on Tinder is all about having good pictures, and it can be a lot of time and effort to get good pictures. Like I said, my success on Tinder was a few months of direct effort, but 15 years of indirect effort. The indirect effort was all about cultivating a good lifestyle where I was physically healthy, had overcome some of my social insecurities, and was doing cool things I actually cared about. The direct effort was getting a haircut, putting on some nicer clothes, and shooting photos where I looked like a cool, confident dude who would be a good fuck. I can send you the guide I followed. Again, the author had a history in the PUA/red pill space, but has since renounced most of that.
So, there are 4 major arenas of dating that we talk about in men’s dating advice. Daygame/cold approach, night game, online, and social circle.
In my opinion, the PUA advice emphasizes CA and NG too much, when most guys have the most success in OLD and SC. I think this is because CA and NG are harder, and so guys like to talk about how successful they are at them to prove what hot stuff they are. If you don’t have much experience, you should make things as easy as possible so you can get experience.
In OLD, you know that every girl you message or swipe on is looking to date - that’s why they are there - so you are absolved of any feeling that asking a girl out or flirting would be inappropriate. If you get a rejection - even a harsh rejection - it is usually just through text so it stings less. And if you have a good profile, it is easy to set up multiple dates each week, so you can get a ton of experience really quickly.
Social circle is where you meet girls via mutual friends or in clubs or hobbies. In social circle, you benefit a lot from already being a known entity - a girl you meet already knows other people trust you, so she is more likely to trust you, and therefore be open to your advances. Plus, you tend to be more confident around your friends, or while you are doing something you enjoy and are good at - and confidence is sexy.
DG/CA and NG have their place, imo. First, they are good if you just want to make a hobby of chasing girls. If you just find you really enjoy walking up to strangers and introducing yourself, then go ahead and do it. Also, if you really want to date/have sex with the hottest, coolest women, then you will need to do pursue these avenues. First of all, because these women already have tons of suitors online and very booked out social lives, so if you don’t introduce yourself when you randomly see them you will never get the chance otherwise. And second, because walking up to a stranger and straight up asking if they are interested in you takes some balls, ie, confidence. And, again, confidence is attractive. Getting good at these avenues can also be good because then you are open to opportunities which arise even if you don’t specifically spend time pursuing them. For example, if you are spending time in a nightclub or a coffee shop just as part of your day to day life, and then you see a cute girl you are interested in, having DG/NG skills lets you confidently make a move on her rather than nervously glancing at her until you or she leaves and you think of what could have been. But finally, really the most important reason for most guys to do CA/NG is simply to overcome social anxiety and gain confidence - but this is for guys who are somewhat experienced already, who want to take their dating to the next level.
In general, I would recommend not talking about your dating life at work, at least until you are more experienced. It can be dangerous for your employment status, as you already know. Keep your conversations about dating to close friends who you can trust.
(part 1 of 2) I need to save what I am writing here (since Lemmy is going to go down soon, sadly) and I need to save this for my autobiography for my therapist.
I am going to just write it right now. The person I was referring to was my brother. I recently 100% cut off my brother from my life and I will no longer speak to him. This isn’t something I have done on impulse, but it was more than 20 years coming. I simply had enough of his bullying, his twisting of everything I say, his accusations about me to my face, and countless other crap that I really, REALLY don’t want to get into. I even went so far as to tell both my parents that ‘This man is your son, but he is not my brother.’ He has always given me sabotaging advice and just stressed me out every single time we spoke, to the point where I would just lose it (again, almost every time) when talking to him and he is wholly and completely unaware and simultaneously does not care what an effect his words have on my emotional and mental state. I’ve been bled my heart out for over 15 years trying to show him how to communicate with me and how he is making me feel, but it is always ‘ummm, OK?’ and then he immediately returns to his old ways.
Like when I was trying to go out and meet people close to ten years ago, every single call from his was such a massive emotional drain that I could not longer socialize with people without getting them to be weirded out and straight up clam up when talking to me. One issue I had is simply getting girls (and I am referring to everyone, from 18 to 60) to just talk to me. The advise that he and others gave (and there are others) was ‘you have two ears and one mouth, listen twice as much as you speak’. This is all well and good… but if the girls are consistently clamming up and outright refusing to speak, it is kinda difficult to listen to pure silence. There are a lot of nasty people out there and constantly being rendered in a poor emotional state does not make it easier.
One other thing about him (and others, including relatives that I also had to cut out of my life) is the sheer contrarian nature of every discussion we have. I want girls, but they said ‘you gotta fix yourself up 100% first before going out’ or ‘you should ignore them and focus on (insert thing here) the girls will come by themselves and/or a waste of time’. None of this addresses that every single person saying it to me has NEVER practiced what they preached. They are always doing multiple things at the same time and going out and meeting people while doing this or that. The only take away is ‘fuck you, buddy, you don’t deserve anything. Just work for table scraps and maybe if you’re lucky a prostitute will fuck you for double price’.
I mean I mentioned my life in Dubai in brief. I need to also mention just how incredibly bizarre my life was there. I wrote over 12,000 words just detailing my first job in Dubai when I was growing up. If I had to describe all I remember we’d be going into novel length territory. On top of that, my brother (and other siblings) all went to college as young as 16 and did so overseas, away from home and my parents, meaning they got a taste of independence and the ability to explore and formulate their own independent lives very young. For me? My brother hinted that he had had fairly extensive sexual experiences well before the age of 20, and he had effectively done it all way before he was 23. But for me? I didn’t even leave home until I was 23, and I didn’t get my own place to finally stay in until I was 26 (going on 27). On top of that living with my parents was a choking experience. I can’t describe just how controlling they were on every single aspect of my life they had. They also simply did not understand even why I wanted to do things on my own, and I am not referring to major events, I am referring to really minor stuff like buying my own clothes without my mom effectively being the one to control what I wear and what I try on.
You might say ‘but dude! You’re a grown ass man! How the fuck did your mother just utterly ignore your expressions that you just want to buy your own shoes?’ Simply, they A: Straight up ignored it, saying ‘yes of course you can’ and then not, or saying ‘yes, of course you can, you are in charge, I am just there to offer you feedback’ when it is patently not true. Also she did not understand that her simple presence in following me around was highly distracting and disconcerting when I was trying to do basic things.
Even more on basic stuff. When I started working in Dubai, there were dress codes at the job that I had to adhere to. Now I am an autistic person and I grew up with schools that all demanded uniforms, so this was not a difficult thing for me to do… but for her? Every time I had to dress up it was a fight. The rules could not be more clear: You wear a shirt AND a tie to work. But she insisted that ‘your brother in Texas, they don’t wear ties there. in fact, they wear T-shirts and jeans. That looks better on you, and you are a young man, so dress like a young man!’ and she would actively fight every single step of the way until I just gave up and wore something entirely contrary to what the rules demanded. It was only when I was threatened to be fired by the manager who sent me back home that she finally let go of that… but only that one time. Every single interview it was the same fucking thing. She would insist on dressing me up like I was a toddler, and always with the same ‘In America they don’t…’ and no amount of calm and rational ‘but we are in Dubai, it isn’t the same here!’ ever got to her.
Can you imagine being someone in your early 20s and literally having to throw temper tantrums in order to just wear work-appropriate clothes every single time? With nothing carrying over to the next incident? Meaning you have to repeat the whole thing like a tired rerun every time. I have an anxiety disorder and this means when I get anxious or worked up, I REALLY get worked up, and it can hours or even a whole day for my adrenaline levels to come back down. This means that I can no longer maintain a calm demeanour when going to a job interview or to work, and this is absolutely noticeable. And as you can tell, the employer doesn’t give a fuck, no one is going to respect someone whose mother has THAT much control over them when they are at that age.
You mentioned having a positive mindset, good mental health, and a strong support system. I had none at the time. Getting a positive mindset is very difficult when everyone around is always against you and on the side everyone telling you off, and it does nothing for your mental health, and I had an oppositional system. It was actually a miracle how I managed to do what I have done in my life with all that bullshit going around me. Again, I am not expecting girls to say ‘hmm, let me cut this guy some slack and fuck him’ that’s not how it works, nor would I want girls to give me pity lays or other such stuff.
And being honest about intentions is good… but you need to know how to properly be honest about your intentions in order for them to come off properly. Like when I came to Canada, I wanted to date girls a little younger than me (I was 24, so around 19-21), but even at my tender young age people saw that as extensively creepy, almost in the exact same that someone in their 50s targeting girls that young is seen as creepy. The thing is those very same people, and I have seen them, think nothing of the numerous people they know that DO have large age gaps in relationships with 10, 15, or even 20 year differences, but they did have an issue with me saying I wanted a younger girlfriend.
So you might think ‘maybe it is because you want to make that specific thing happen while for the others it just fell into place?’ I need to say something: I’ve seen how many of those others guys work. It rarely ‘just falls into place’, there is some effort that goes into it even if they aren’t conscious of it. Secondly, the reason why I wanted a younger girlfriend is not just because I wanted a younger girlfriend, I wanted a younger social circle. Period. The reason for this is due to the isolation I had and extensive controls, I wanted to have the experiences that I wanted to have at a much younger age with people of that age. I’ve also been accused of having a mid-life crisis. This isn’t the case. If that was the case it would be my 5th mid-life crisis so far, that’s not how they work.
Of course a lot of the stuff I did backfired badly. The younger crowd I did hang out with when I was in my early 30s (and I quickly moved away from) were principally a bunch of stoners, idiots, pathological liars, and directionless drifters. There was one stoner guy (who is one of the ‘them’ who gave me terrible advice) who said he would help me get laid and find a girlfriend and said he would be my wingman… only for him to do a 180 in the three outings we did together, make a completely fool out of me (not intentionally, he was just that inept and stupid) and even paint all my good characteristics as being douchey.
Like those people had gaming nights on weekends… and I made them some really, really fancy pizza. I pride myself on being a very accomplished cook. The pizza I made used a slow-rise New York style pizza dough that needs 3 day cold-rise and I made some sauce that has to be tasted to be believed. Despite this, when he belatedly ‘introduced’ to me a group organizer of a BDSM group (yes, it was his idea) he just spoke ‘this guy is freaking out all the time and thinks he can just walk up to a girl and get a date. I tried telling him, you need to spend a few months at least in a group and make friends with all her friends before you even talk to her, but he keeps talking about PUA and stuff… but he made a nice pizza it was OK I guess’ I am paraphrasing…
Frankly you sound like you have a great chance of moving past this, and it’s not weird to need some help or feedback from others, most of us do. It’s a shame the folks you found previously were such idiots, lots of people are really unqualified to give advice there. Keep pushing!
I wrote a big-ass comment just above, I’d appreciate it if you gave it a little look.
Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but only the “2 of 2” appears (incl. in your comment history) from my perspective.
Right below it the part one of two should appear.