Can we stop putting AOC and Sanders as Democrats please. At least these two are vocal.
Sanders is not even a member of the Democratic Party.
Democrats are literally controlled-opposition
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Considering that Liberals are literally right wingers (Political Science 101) masquerading as leftists, yeah you are turds in every way.
We actually agree on something
Americans need to stop saying the Democrats want universal healthcare. They don’t and they’ve made that clear numerous times.
Like when?
Obamacare, the multiple times in 2016, 2020, and 2024 when they were deciding on a platform and universal healthcare never made the cut. They’ve had plenty of opportunities to push it and they never do.
That’s because you’re political system is broken by lobbying. Fix that and you might start to see both parties make decisions for the people instead of the corporation’s and billionaires that give them both insane amounts of money. Money they need to stay elected.
You are awsome
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AOC is progressive, not a neoliberal. Saying liberals want universal healthcare is a straight up LIE
Neoliberals are not typically liberals. You can be a progressive liberal
Source: am one
No shit. I am replying to the meme which implies democrats want universal healthcare - they dont.
You worded it strangely. Liberals and aoc want uhc
If liberals actually wanted uhc we’d have it by now. Instead they neutered Medicare/Medicaid because “if were nice to the republicans maybe they’ll be nice to us when theyre in power”. now look where we are.
I think the confusion is that it actually implies AOC, who is a Democrat, wants universal healthcare - she does.
Progressive just means a low ranking democrap.
MTG is just there for the lols. She was rich before she got elected and gotten even richer since. She’a there to pass out the matches and watch the world burn
And yet when the legislature arrives to give us free Healthcare the Democrats don’t pass it despite having a majority.
Both sides aren’t the same, but their choices produce the same results.
There’s always conveniently a cohort of Dems that vote against party lines. Every. Time. Then they can shrug and say “welp, we tried”.
Two sides of the same capitalist shit sandwich.
This is because of red state Democrats like Manchin. Because every state gets two senators, there are more senators from red states than blue states. So Democrats have to capture more of the center to hey the majority in the Senate.
And yet when the legislature arrives to give us free Healthcare the Democrats don’t pass it despite having a majority.
Obamacare saved my life and was the product of immense effort at a time when the Dems were more conservative than they are today. Blue Dogs were wiped out in 2010 and 2012 because of that (correct) rage against them.
You can say what the Dems managed to do was not enough - and it’s not. Millions of people are not as lucky as me (though I suppose poverty is a strange kind of luck - poverty in a blue state, perhaps, more appropriately) and still suffer immensely under our utterly fucked healthcare system. But it’s not the same result as doing nothing - or worse, handing control over to the GOP. Millions like me owe a greatly improved quality of life, or our very lives, to the reforms passed.
If you have a plan to destroy the Dems and replace them all with left-wing progressives, and put demo charges on the base of our utterly fucked rat’s nest of a government structure, I’m not here to tell you not to. But I am here to tell you that both sides are not the same for millions of disadvantaged demographics, even if the Dems are not enough for those selfsame demographics.
That’s really the one big thing I can think of that they did get through.
It got like 80mil people health insurance which was great.
It was still a huge compromise from the free universal healthcare that was the original goal.
It’s worth noting that Obama did this by going around party leadership. Once he was in power he did not obey the DNC like other candidates have.
It’s worth noting that Obama did this by going around party leadership. Once he was in power he did not obey the DNC like other candidates have.
I mean, the president is party leadership. And Biden, an ardent party loyalist, is the only Dem president in the past 50 years which has been in lockstep with the wider party.
When i say “the party” i mean the privately ran organization who is legally allowed to choose whoever their canidate is, and doesn’t have to legally hold a fair primary election or any election at all.
Sure the president gets a temporary seat at the table, but the other DNC leaders do not want them to be in control.
The fact that Obama tried to push free healthcare made the DNC leadership furious, because that isn’t what he told them before the primaries. But because they were stuck with him they instead had other loyalist dems try to help Republicans block his policies and then enjoyed the popularity Obama was bringing to the party.
Wow a government that taxes you into oblivion for the War Pigs Somehow squeezes out a success. Every once in a while a blind squirrel finds a nut. You don’t have a mental process that thinks in terms of like a program. It could be argued that the United States is not even a democracy, given all of the methods that the rich make it so that our candidates that have our best interest are never able to be chosen. And it’s a mixture of people not understanding or knowing history with a sprinkling of illiteracy. that we continue to march down the road, choosing the same two parties over and over again, and living in a vacuum. Stuck in time. Repeating the same mistakes. The Yankees in whole both Democrat and Republican are some variation of fascist and relative to the rest of the world the left and right paradigm is more varied. America is a imperialist empire that employs fascist as useful idiots to do the bidding of the business owners and the capitalist class. Democrats just give you the impression that you have a choice. It’s a form of pacification. They themselves can see themselves as powerful and still have faith in the institution. And they themselves can also be alright people, but the ROLE or FUNCTION that they play in all this is just controlled opposition. The more you go down the rabbit hole of world history and American history, you start to see patterns, and really nothing has changed. Like fascism and racism and all these isms are just character traits of societies. But they are symptoms of exponential processes inside of containers that can no longer withstand the flux. That’s how you can have Nazi Jews. Not all Jews are Nazis, but Israelis in general, as a collective, are fascistic in nature. And there shouldn’t be really a debate about this, but a lot of people are ignorant about what it’s like in Israel and how the laws are written. To be honest it’s almost like me. I live in Yankee land. I’m not a fascist. I think I am a minority in my opinions, but there is still a significant amount of people that believe as I do. I mean I can relate to a israeli., who chooses not to be a fascist. It’s such a fucking mess. And at the root of it all, is that people just don’t take interest really in current affairs, in a serious, responsible manner. As a collective, we are very misinformed Population. The Yankee likes to make fun of North Korea, but I think of us like North Korea. Like a mixture of Disneyland and North Korea. You put those two together and I think that’s what it’s like to live in America. But if you never left the country, you don’t realize the rest of the people around the world live better lives. And like, I wouldn’t stay here if I had a choice now that I know more about the world. Like vote Democrat. No thank you. Buy the plain ticket, leave the country forever and never look back. That’s where I’m at.
Not the same results exactly, more that the dems enable the republicans by not pushing back, but both are far below the standard we should accept.
Both sides aren’t the same, but their choices produce the same results.
The last few weeks are clear evidence of the opposite.
Kids were still in cages during Biden. Prison slave population still highest history. Biden started the genocide and handed it over to trump. Biden deported more people than trump. Biden didn’t feel like codifing roe. No min wage discussions whatsoever. No universal healthcare. Harris wanted a stronger border than trump and bragged about it. Half of the US can’t even afford a 1 bedroom apartment under Biden and Trump alike.
The two parties exist to appease their corporate donors. Nothing they do is in your interests.
By the way, progressive measures passed in many states, even states that Trump won. People want progressive policy but neither party is willing to deliver. This is a feature, not a bug, of capitalism.
Oh no, I angered the tankies.
Both parties suck. The world would not be experiencing economic bipolarism, and we would not be spreading memes about American born citizens rotting in prisons in El Salvador just to cope had Trump lost the election. The two parties are not the same.
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Kids weren’t being forced back to labour in factories by the CEO of Amazon -see Florida.
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State Prison populations logarithmically dwarf federal prison populations, overwhelmingly Red States With Mississippi, Lousiana, Oklahoma, Idaho, Arizona, Texas, Georgia as the magnificent 7. All notoriously with a racial bias. No democrat president would have made the move or received the support necessary to dismantle private prisons at this point in history. What Trump is doing is not legal, you cannot rule by executive order, the judiciary are just all bought or neutered right now.
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Biden’s white house was about economic recovery because that was what was most important after Trump racked up the deficit. America enjoyed the lowest impact of inflation with the most economic regrowth of any country in the world after COVID. Things are significantly worse elsewhere. Inflation was going down under Biden, but social media gaslit the nation into believing it was way worse and once again that Trickle down economics would fix it.
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Crashing and burning the global economy was Big Tech’s goal, under Biden the judiciary ordered Alphabet to break up Google’s monopoly. It was just too late to happen at that point. No other government gave enough of a shit about our personal privacy and freedom to attempt to break the single largest corporate spy network in the history of existence. The democrats didn’t do everything we wanted them to, that doesn’t mean they didn’t make some very important and historically significant moves.
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There was no presidential immunity until the very end of Biden’s presidency at which point he was in noticeable mental decline and there was no supreme court stacked in his favour.
It’s not black and white, is all I’m saying. The constant self-criticism is what splits the Democratic party, reduces the turnout and allowed corporatism the opening to advantage themselves. We’re lucky Trump still has the energy to rule without having the mental faculties to let others call all the shots. Sometimes, better than literal fascists is enough.
I respect you for doing it, but the .ml at the end of their name really just means you’re wasting your effort.
None the less, good on you for fighting the good fight. I’m sick and tired of people pushing powerlessness and apathy under the guise of good will.
I don’t care to convince them. Every opportunity we have to counter the false narratives meant to divide the working class, is an opportunity for you, myself and everyone else provide our comrades who have not yet woken up to the programming the ability to:
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Recognise agents, bad actors and bots.
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Give them the tools to counter them and drive home the message of unity. We need to stop playing party politics and realise the struggle has always been up vs down, left vs right is just how the owners of our media push us against eachother.
Thank you for contributing to the wider conversation.
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Anyone that has to hear “the two parties are not the same” is too stupid to change their tiny little mind and recognize it.
I once got a death threat here on lemmy for suggesting that democrats were better than Republicans. That was interesting to say the least
You’re not wrong. Apparently the truth stung someone pretty hard.
They have to live with the fact they didn’t vote as the next Hitler takes hold, it’s also the only thing their stupid little minds can use to go on without acknowledging their conscience that wants them to yeet themselves out a window.
They have to live with the fact they didn’t vote as the next Hitler takes hold,
They think Thalmann did nothing wrong, so if anything, they celebrate that they didn’t vote as the next Hitler takes hold.
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Sure, one “party” is fascist and the other “party” is collaborators. Lots of differences to point out there.
Yawn.
Yet another goon who hasn’t bothered looking up both party’s voting history or criminal conviction history.
Do your homework.
He did do his homework. He’s not saying this shit out of ignorance but out of malice. He’s a Russian shill.
You begin to recognize the usernames.
Boost’ user tagging feature had made my Lemmy experience so much better. The tag pops out so it’s the first thing I notice before even reading the thing so I know to prepare myself and not take it seriously if it’s tagged as a troll or whatever. Easier than remembering who said what in previous posts.
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I’m guessing you’re not a native English speaker?
No, I just misread the first time. Fair enough.
I’d argue that Nancy Pelosy is more representative of the dems than AOC.
Well, I’d argue Nancy is more representative of wealthy American neo-liberals, which most of us are not.
I’d even argue is Nancy even a dem at this point she’s more of a centrist parading around as a dem.
Nancy is more representative of wealthy American neo-liberals
Yes which is much closer to who the Dems are representing as a whole
That’s fair I’d agree with it.
While Nancy’s actual politics may be more centrists than dem, shes still one of the old guards that must go away for any actual change in the party.
The Dems are centrists. They always have been.
Dems are centrists.
Dems are a far right party that only look centrist if you squint looking at them from inside fascist crazy town.
To basically anyone in the developed world, of which we are not, Luigi murdered a mass murderer, to any fascist or neoliberal here, we have to let murderers for profit let the free market decide who gets life saving healthcare, as just 1 of innumerable examples.
Neoliberals don’t squee like little girls at the hello kitty store when people suffer and die needlessly when it facilitates private profit as the Fascists do, but they don’t see it as the social fabric betrayal and atrocity it is either. “free market forces, mr dying homeless person, but I support your right to die in the gutter of hunger and exposure as any identity you choose!” Because it’s free to, but people need their basic survival met first, and that takes resources that go to them and not the robber barons that pay off both parties.
agreed. In context, they’re centrists for the States. Bernie is only barely left of center to the rest of the world but considered extreme here by corporate media and the other government clowns.
Bernie is only barely left of center to the rest of the world
When people say dumbass shit like this it makes me wonder what part of the world they are talking about.
All of Africa: right wing compared to America
Most of South America: right wing compared to America
Pretty much all of Asia: right wing compared to America
Middle East: lmao
Russia: lmao
Europe: about 70% right wing or similar to America with a handful of countries that might be considered left wing maybe but are sliding right as well.
The British Commonwealth: about the same as America except for the healthcare aspect.
Maybe you consider Antarctica left wing? Maybe the Oceans? Maybe the only part of the world that exists to these idiots are uber white Aryan nordic countries only? Or maybe you live in a fantasy dimension and are somehow communicating to us through a wormhole via Lemmy.
Europe is absolutely not as you describe. That’s what the media feeds you in North America.
I totally agree with you she must go, she’s part of the let’s maintain the status quo dems.
Sounds like you don’t know what a Dem is
You know “centrist” is not a political party, right? Fuckin kids these days, what are they teaching you…
Literally nothing considering I’m an adult these days. But how’s being a smug ass hat been going for ya?
That’s a funny take. The former speaker of the house who hand selected her replacement and was the leader of the Democratic caucus for more than a decade, and you’re basically calling them a DINO
MAGA regularly calls Mitch McConnell a RINO. Why should we handle Nancy any differently?
Right, lol. I guess the other user thought they had me in some sort of gotcha moment.
You guys are so right, maga does it, that means it’s correct
/S
The centers of both parties are functionally allies, the power structure of the Democratic party despises the kind of progressive politics AOC and Bernie do far more than the Republicans they claim to oppose even when those Republicans are literal out in the open fascists. Chuck Shumer is exhibit A and will become a historical touchstone for discussions about how neoliberalism always in the end sets up the conditions for fascism and then pathetically collapses in the crucial moment of resistance against fascism.
Fuck that, both parties need to go, how many times has the Democratic party laughed in the face of Bernie as they blatantly undermined him?
No, I treat Republicans as an existential threat, which means I also logically see the entrenched power structures of the Democrats that are happy to lose to Republicans rather than evolve, as an existential threat.
Pelosi is a Democrat through and through, AOC and Bernie are Democrats because they have no choice in the status quo.
The progressives need a build a new party before we destroy the existing ones.
Says who?
Common sense.
Weak response, provide evidence that trying to reform the Democratic party is a better strategy.
They will not change their strategy, the organization is structurally incapable of it, how much more proof do you need?
Maga fundamentally changed the Republican Party but you’re saying the progressives are unable to do the same?
Why wouldn’t they be able to?
Because they weren’t afraid of change before we are “ready for it” like you are, which is the only reason the tea party worked. They were willing to tear everything down if it wasn’t working, and that made the rest of the Republican party blink.
Your strategy is exactly the kind of political pushback people like Shumer and Pelosi prefer, because it is strategically ineffectual at threatening their power.
Anyone who wants to exist under a non-fascist government?
The bi partisan police state and Military Industrial Complex existed before Trump ever took public office.
We are past that point already?
A fair point.
I would point, however, to that emphasizing the need to create a progressive party, rather than prioritizing the destruction of the now-castrated Dems.
The entrenched power structure is always going to narrativize a genuine alternative to the Democratic party as harsh toned leftists destroying things to destroy things, so if you are afraid of that in your rhetoric (even if you end up supporting more reform like policies in the end) you are already making it incredibly easy to be walked all over by people that resist all change.
No, the strategy is to go for the throat of the DNC and happily back off when they realize you aren’t messing around and give material concessions to the people they are supposed to represent. This is why the tea party was unfortunately successful, now is when the left does our version.
If that breaks the Democratic party in the process, that is their fault for building a house of cards indifferent to the suffering of people in the US.
So what? That does not negate the stated want.
Weird how evolution takes time.
Actually one of the biggest arguments in geology/evolutionary biology is whether evolution tends to be a slow, continous steady process or whether it happens in explosive spurts seperated by periods of little evolution.
There is abundant evidence that both happens, so your metaphor is tenous at best.
Yeah for sure AOC represent Democrats 😂😂😂. They are all behind her and sure will let her run for primary and win like they did with Bernie Sanders. LMAO
For all their preaching about the sanctity of democracy they seem willing to do anything to avoid ever having a democratic primary process. The hypocrisy is stunning.
How about repeatedly bringing up the flaws of First past the post voting every election cycle and then doing nothing to solve it in the blue states they control?
Did Bernie not run in the primary? I remember him having his ass handed to him in my state.
Does nobody remember Biden and Warren splitting the Bernie vote or
I phone banked for him on his 2 most possible runs. He’s way too old. AOC is the only half decent insider option in all of DC now.
After a lifetime of voting for the lesser evil to make the ship sink a little slower, voting blue from Kerry to Harris in the general after primarying for the most leftwing candidate available, and feeling dirty every time, either they can give me a candidate that isn’t actively choking as they fellate oligarch dick, or I’ll watch it all burn from home.
I guess from my perspective you still realised they were still the lesser of two evils. You are right the system is fucked and the Democrats did not do enough to change the status quo particularly in terms of correcting the wealth disparity we see now.
Let’s hope the US actually have a chance at another fair election with a candidate you deserve because as it looks right now everyday the current fascist regime that is Trump administration moves towards a future where you may not get that chance.
Democrats simply have no levers to pull to make wholesale changes. I remember Hillary attempting to engage with healthcare reform during her time as First Lady and being pilloried for it. Obama’s administration couldn’t muster nearly enough votes to enact single-payer healthcare and had to opt for a market based solution that just eked through congress, only to be lambasted by the modern left for it.
Many around these parts act as if Democrats can just enact reforms by fiat and do not answer to a largely centrist, if not conservative, constituency. A cursory examination shows this has never been the case; the center/left has always had to govern via consensus.
Now “leftists” are eating their own to a degree that leaves me often suspecting that many are little more than poorly disguised MAGA adherents bleating accelerationist nonsense. This thread and any other like it is replete with these moans of surrender, and who can be surprised? Organizing takes much more effort than vomiting into a keyboard and these folks are by and large too lazy to suss out an understanding of recent history, instead choosing to repeat the same canards (see: the conspiracy theory of independent Bernie being cheated in lieu of not being able to come close to winning the Democratic primary.)
AOC and Bernie should just start their own party and drive the establishment democrats out if business.
I’m pushing for this every day. It’s our only way out of this.
I agree. Both democrats and republicans pledge allegiance to capitalism above all else. This simply is not sustainable.
This is also why education and historical literacy is so important. If more people knew how that America is only successful because of (majority) socialist policies like the New Deal and Great Society then there will be more widespread support for a reinvigoration of them.
I think legacy media and centralized social media have dumbed down our populace to a point that they don’t even realize there is a way out. Everyone in the 99% stands to benefit from radical change.
What percentage of the American population are progressive? Please provide a reliable source for your information. And please don’t provide something nebulous and without meaning like “75% of Americans support random progressive policy”. Those polls show aggrement with a policy, not a desire to change current policy.
More than you’d think are progressive. But, I’m not claiming we need a progressive party - anything left of center is better than what the Democrats offer.
I don’t care how many people are progressive, at this point it’s the only thing i will vote for. I saw how the Democratic Party acted after losing, and i am talking about all of it, not just pathetic signs and admonishing people speaking truth to power. I will not vote for establishment again no matter what the options are.
I don’t care how many people are progressive, at this point it’s the only thing i will vote for.
Yeah, that’s about what I expect from Lemmy leftists.
This is the crux of it, American’s have shown us time and again they are centrist/center left at best. These folks are so trapped in their ideological bubbles that they cannot fathom their extreme outlier position, small wonder that there is so much accelerationist language of late.
Compromise is taboo and so any candidate that has agitated inside the system for change ends up verboten.
MTG is far more welcome in her party than AOC is in hers.
The neoliberal DNC sees the Republicans as their esteemed opposition, as they are on the same take and have the same orders on Economic policy. They see spoilers like AOC, who are not on the corpo bribe train and for profound economic policy changes, as their enemy.
https://apnews.com/article/business-nancy-pelosi-congress-8685e82eb6d6e5b42413417f3d5d6775
https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2021/04/15/nancy-pelosi-alexandria-ocasio-cortez-481704
The Democrats, almost all of them save a couple of spoilers, aren’t the fascists themselves, but they’ve spent the last half century enabling the fascists. The Democrats don’t care about entire industries of confidence schemes murdering Americans like our deathcare industry, they don’t care about poor kids getting a good education, and they dont care about millions of our most betrayed neighbors dying in the streets. As the bad cop Fascists brag about how much they love the schaudenfreude of the pain those people are in, the good cop neoliberals shrug “free market forces, sorry! But I do affirm your identity, homeless dying/lifesaving healthcare denied person!”
That’s why there really isn’t hope until we collapse, hopefully by our hands in revolution and not by oligarch made climate change in a couple decades. Best, best, best, best case scenario, we have a real election in 3. 5 years and the Neoliberals gain power, do NOTHING to reign in the oligarchs, income inequity, or our sociopathic, murderous capital markets as they’re gleefully paid not to do. Fascism is the takeover of the state to serve big capital’s need for ever moar, and so the table will remain set to go back on the fascist march in just another 4 years.
AOC is not a good representation of the democrats. Obama, Biden, Pelosi, and Gavin Newsom are better reps for the party. With the things AOC values, it feels she only identifies as Democrat in order to be on the Democrat ballot. AOC has been touring with Bernie. Bernie doesn’t even identify with the Democratic Party, but still came dangerously close (according to the Dems) to being the elect instead of Biden back in 2019-2020. The Democratic Party did not like that. The dems want to keep the working class down. The republicans want to squash the working class and more into submission.
I think the people that align with the Democratic Party were feeling a lot of this between late 2019 - mid 2020.
Obama, Biden, Pelosi, and Gavin Newsom
Obama being a proponent of universal healthcare back in 2008, Biden a supporter of the Green New Deal, and Newsom part of a push for universal healthcare in Cali?
I don’t mean to say that any of this is enough. I don’t mean to say that the Dems aren’t dragging their fucking feet and 10 years too late on every goddamn issue; I’m not saying that the system is working or that we don’t need a new system.
But anyone who says that the two parties are the same or indistinguishable in terms of results or ideals is selling a crock of fascist-flavored shit. Apathy and non-participation benefits conservatives.
You’re screaming into the void here on Lemmy. All we have are tankies and teenagers that want Amazon two-day shipping on their “RevolutionTM” and are throwing a crying temper tantrum that the majority of the American public don’t agree with them.
So they bitch about the Dems who are the only ones actually trying to solve the problem for not doing it fast enough while they themselves do literally nothing to solve any actual problems and giving the Republicans, the party that is actually causing all the problems, a complete free pass.
The tankies are the toddler throwing a tantrum on the floor of a toy store. The Dems are their mom who isn’t buying them the Xbox game they want and the Republicans are the store owners hiking up the price of the game to make it unaffordable to all but the extremely wealthy. Their little baby brains can only think to whine and cry and blame their mom because they have no understanding of the reality behind, well… anything really.
So they bitch about the Dems who are the only ones actually trying to solve the problem for not doing it fast enough while they themselves do literally nothing to solve any actual problems and giving the Republicans, the party that is actually causing all the problems, a complete free pass.
I’ve been starting to suspect that they give MAGA a free pass because MAGA is just too powerful and scary for them.
Take on the Democrats, you get tons of sweet internet clout. Take on MAGA, you might disappear and end up in a prison in El Salvador.
Why put all that risk into punching up, when you can punch horizontally and still pretend you’re a revolutionary.
Thank you for your response. I don’t typically post comments on any social media because I feel it is not worth it. There is a movement growing in the USA rn, and most people on Social Media are not actively being a part of it. We can end the things that have happened. It will take time.
This is very refreshing to read.
You’re trying to talk sense to people of an extremist ‘comply or die’ style ideology here. Proper leftists have empathy enough for the well-being of their fellow humans and the planet we live on to recognize that simply burning everything to the ground benefits nobody. What we have in this place for the most part are keyboard commandos who wouldn’t have the first clue what to do in the event of a full societical collapse.
These are wildly opposite and anyone who says AOC isn’t a real representation of DNC must also find a more GOP aligned member, like Mike Johnson or Steve Scalise. They are despicable but not all-caps-tweets kind of despicable.
AOC is the only representation of the DNC. Hope she unseats Schumer, becomes leader of the democratic party, and down the line runs for President. She will be the best president America have had.
I do not hope she runs for President next time though, as my thoughts of Americans are very low, and i believe them to be too bigoted to vote for her yet. yet.
The parties are not the same, but they’re both brands owned by conservatives.
AOC deserves criticism for voting to prevent the rail union strikes. Quite insufficient IMO. Just because someone is worse does not make you fit for public office.
Have higher standards. If we let the republicans set the bar we will be six feet under in no time.
Don’t let perfect be the enemy of good.
The existence of the putrid does not make trash good
It does make trash the best choice though
it does when you live in a trash heap.
