• Majorllama@lemmy.world
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    4 days ago

    I would be curious to see the numbers but I don’t think the pro Palestine protest voters cost the Democrats the election. It definitely didn’t help, but the Dems shat the bed in way more ways than just the Palestine situation.

    • givesomefucks@lemmy.world
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      4 days ago

      If they did, then all the neolibs were wrong that voters don’t care about Palestine…

      Which logically means the party needs to move to the left at least enough so that genocide isn’t acceptable.

      Instead, they act like fucking trump supporters and brag that a genocide is still happening.

      There’s zero logic or empathy with them, which is why some people call them “blue maga”.

      They’re the ones that didn’t stop watching CNN even after the new buyers blatantly and publicly said their goal was to become the fox news if he left.

      • SoupBrick@yiffit.net
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        4 days ago

        You are aware that people can hold two beliefs at once, right?

        1. Democrats are not doing enough and were actively allowing a genocide under their watch.
        2. Inside our current system, the most powerful act a citizen can perform is voting.

        So, not voting and encouraging others not to vote because “blue MAGA” is actively helping the people who are currently enacting genocide+.

        • givesomefucks@lemmy.world
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          4 days ago

          See, this is where communication always breaks down…

          If a progressive is politically active right now it’s safe to assume that they held their nose and voted D.

          Which I’ve done just like I’ve always done.

          But we tried to warn people trump was going to win if Dems kept moving right…

          Dems kept moving right, and we were right. Then when we try to talk about how to win next time and how to gain back all the votes moving right cost us…

          We get people trying to say we’re the problem because we want to fucking win.

          So, not voting and encouraging others not to vote because “blue MAGA” is actively helping the people who are currently enacting genocide+.

          I got a big post history, plenty of opportunities for you to find a single comment where I’ve ever advocated for not voting for the least evil candidate in the general.

          But if you got a little faith you can take my word it’s not in here.

        • grue@lemmy.world
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          4 days ago

          Inside our current system, the most powerful act a citizen can perform is voting.

          That “inside” is doing increasingly heavy lifting these days. Seems to me that increasingly the only successful change comes from working outside the system.

          • wick@lemm.ee
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            2 days ago

            How do you define that? Because all I’m hearing is you want to be the unibomber.

        • LibertyLizard@slrpnk.net
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          4 days ago

          Yes, it is possible to be extremely ignorant of the effectiveness of various political actions.

          Whether you are for or against voting, claiming it’s the most powerful act a citizen can perform is completely absurd. I don’t know a single informed person of any ideology who thinks this.

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              4 days ago

              What is the reason?

              Maybe I don’t understand what you’re trying to say here. The way I understand it, it’s very misleading or incorrect. There are plenty of actions people can take that are far more impactful than voting. I guess whether those various actions are categorized as inside or outside of the system might be up for debate in some cases. But I’m not sure why you would even be imposing that restriction in the first place.

              • SoupBrick@yiffit.net
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                4 days ago

                The reason I said, “inside the system” is that we need to use the avenues provided to us to try to fight back along side other means, such as protests. We need to unify now more than ever, so lumping everyone who uses the system to affect change into “blue MAGA” is only harming progress.

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                  I agree completely with the need to unify. I just want people to stop thinking politics begins and ends with voting. Even if you don’t want to do anything disruptive there are still things you can do like canvassing or letter-writing or becoming local party delegate and influencing parties from the inside. I largely agree with leftists that the system will never be completely transformed from the inside but it’s better than doing nothing.

                  However I also think we’re getting to the point where more disruptive civil resistance actions will be necessary.

    • some_guy@lemmy.sdf.org
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      3 days ago

      Pretty much. They didn’t offer anything their constituents wanted except for escape from DJT.

      • Majorllama@lemmy.world
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        3 days ago

        Unfortunately “We aren’t Donald Trump” wasn’t a winning strategy two of the three times they tried it.

        I wonder what two terrible choices we are gonna have in 2028. Watch it be like fuckin Nancy Pelosi with an exoskeleton holding her up vs Dan Crenshaw who will have replaced his eye patch with a gun by then.

        • McPoops@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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          And, remember, it almost didn’t even work the second time. Biden was the only candidate running for the nomination poised to lose to Trump and he was forced on us, seemingly as punishment for us demanding healthcare. They were willing to throw 2020 and would have lost had the unpredictable and extraordinary circumstances of Covid-19 not occurred, along with Trump’s absolutely bungled response. Covid-19 was the sole event that propelled Biden to the white house. And then he was exactly as ineffective and terrible as all leftists predicted and we got Trump back because of it.

          • Majorllama@lemmy.world
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            3 days ago

            I think both Trump and Biden handled COVID fucking terribly.

            Really most nations handled it really fucking badly. I can forgive initial mistakes like not knowing how potent it was or how infectious it was, but once they knew the masks were pointless why the hell did they continue to push that crap everywhere.

            • McPoops@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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              3 days ago

              It’s absolutely a disgrace how the Dems handled it after an entire year of Trump trying to pretend it just didn’t exist or was just a cold and using that in their campaign. Then when it became convenient for them they began to pretend it was over.

        • _cryptagion@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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          Well, whoever it is, it’ll be them running against Trump, because he’s already hinted at running for a third term, and he doesn’t give a shit if things he does are illegal. And again, whoever it is the Dems pick, they’ll be such shitheads that they’ll lose the election against Trump again, for the third time. There is absolutely no chance whatsoever they learn their lesson in the next four years, because democrats are mentally incapable of even considering they could ever do anything wrong.

              • Majorllama@lemmy.world
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                3 days ago

                I was saying that the left says he’s a liar 24/7 but for whatever reason chose to believe him completely when he made that comment. But then they just go right back to calling him a liar when he made clarifications afterwards.

                It’s not that complex if you have a handful of functioning brain cells my guy.

      • SwingingTheLamp@midwest.social
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        3 days ago

        I question even that: Did they really? Where did the party articulate a cohesive plan (or hell, even just an enthusiastic promise) to counter the rise of oligarchy?

        They promised an escape from him stylistically, but the majority of citizens who aren’t political junkies weren’t sick of it, because they weren’t exposed to it, because they don’t pay much attention to political news. What did they promise that the non-informed voter would notice in they’re day-to-day life?

        • JcbAzPx@lemmy.world
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          They promised that their oligarchs would be nicer to us. Which, to be fair, is probably true.

    • PugJesus@lemmy.world
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      4 days ago

      Pro-Palestine protest votes didn’t cost the Dems the election, but that a single group was not the deciding factor in a contest does not absolve them of responsibility. IE single-issue pro-Israel voters probably were not the reason for Trump’s victory, but they still deserve a portion of the blame in voting for Trump.

      And many of these selfsame pro-Palestine protest vote types are continuing their dumbass games even as Trump greenlights fascism both at home and abroad - like everyone fucking told them he would.

      • ✺roguetrick✺@lemmy.world
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        3 days ago

        And many of these selfsame pro-Palestine protest vote types are continuing their dumbass games even as Trump greenlights fascism both at home and abroad - like everyone fucking told them he would.

        The dimbass games are posts like this instead of arguing for civil disruption and actions beyond elections. The protesters entire point was the election won’t stop the genocide either way and further action is needed. Trying to bait them into an argument about an election that’s already fucking over serves nothing. Unless you don’t care about the issue in the first place and just want to be divisive about it.

          • ✺roguetrick✺@lemmy.world
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            2 days ago

            Any direct action and organizing, frankly. From mutual aid and disruptive protests to boycott, sabotage, and strike(which would take years to organize).

        • PugJesus@lemmy.world
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          The protesters entire point was the election won’t stop the genocide either way and further action is needed.

          And in the interest of furthering that point, they did everything they could to ensure a Democratic defeat. After all, if Palestinians are genocided by Israel, it’s only fair that American minorities get genocided by Republicans, right?

          Trying to bait them into an argument about an election that’s already fucking over serves nothing.

          I’m not trying to bait them into any sort of argument. They’re long past help. They’re out here on Lemmy already praising Trump as the ‘lesser evil’ and insisting, even now, that there’s no difference between Trump and Harris in terms of policy. Any argument with them is fucking pointless.

          But I’m sorry that you don’t like that I’m not giving them asspats for their ‘principled’ stand against American minorities over an issue that, even according to your summary of their motivations, they realized would not be changed by their attacks on the non-fascist candidate in the election.

          • ✺roguetrick✺@lemmy.world
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            3 days ago

            After all, if Palestinians are genocided by Israel, it’s only fair that American minorities get genocided by Republicans, right?

            Solidarity for me, but not for thee. It doesn’t work out well.

            • PugJesus@lemmy.world
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              3 days ago

              Yes, this is why the smartest choice for LGBT folk in 1939 Poland would have been to welcome the Nazis, what with Poland being, at the time, far from LGBT-friendly. Because if there’s not solidarity for everyone, there should be solidarity for no one.

              /s, for all of those out there patting each other on the back over ensuring the fascist won the 2024 American presidential election.

              • ✺roguetrick✺@lemmy.world
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                Or maybe when voting makes it impossible to achieve justice you should move towards other forms of resistance, like my original point was. Part of that resistance is nonparticipation. It’s an expected outcome. I voted for Harris but you don’t see me clutching my pearls over the idea that maybe this system just needs to go.

                • PugJesus@lemmy.world
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                  Or maybe when voting makes it impossible to achieve justice

                  Oh, of course, when you can’t achieve justice by voting, the correct decision is to ensure that voting results in the worst possible resolution. If you can’t have justice, you must have as much injustice as possible. The only moral choice, of course. Basic accelerationism. Every good revolutionary knows this.

                  you should move towards other forms of resistance, like my original point was.

                  Like fucking what? The easy answer of “We’re going to rise up and firebomb the rich any day now :‘’')” has been parroted by leftist wannabe suburban kids since the 70s; fuck’s sake, I’ve heard the line myself for the past 20 fucking years. And what has happened? Where are these masses ready to rise up, since they find voting no longer radical enough for their tastes?

                  They aren’t exchanging voting for more effective forms of change. They’re just abandoning voting, and replacing it with jack fucking shit. They continue to sit on their fucking asses, like always. They don’t organize en masse, they don’t take up lone wolf violence. They do nothing, except play at purity games to jerk themselves off over how pure they are for abandoning as many minorities and oppressed groups as they can to literal fucking fascists. And you know who suffers for it?

                  All of us.

                  Fuck’s sake.

                  Part of that resistance is nonparticipation. It’s an expected outcome.

                  Are you fucking kidding me? “Resistance is nonparticipation”?

                  What a fucking joke. Am I suppose to thank these twats for nonparticipating us into camps? Should I thank them for nonparticipating Ukraine into a potential genocide? What did nonparticipation gain us ‘revolutionary’ elements? Are we better poised to strike against the system now? No? We’re actually worse off? Fucking fantastic.

                  I voted for Harris but you don’t see me clutching my pearls over the idea that maybe this system just needs to go.

                  “This system needs to go” does not need the addendum “Therefore, I’m going to make the system as terrible as possible”.

                  • ✺roguetrick✺@lemmy.world
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                    3 days ago

                    You think I’m naive for telling you how things work? Believing that someone is going to remain participatory with a government that’s genuinely greenlighting genocide like the Dems were because the opposition will… greenlight genocide… is delusional. If that’s their primary moral issue, they are expected to not participate.

                    What’s naive is going through this shit since the 80s and actually expecting electoralisim alone to change things. Newsflash, it hasn’t. The problems are more fundamental. Whining about someone else not putting work in is similarly unconvincing.

      • gamermanh@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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        3 days ago

        single-issue pro-Israel voters probably were not the reason for Trump’s victory, but they still deserve a portion of the blame in voting for Trump.

        Except they didnt vote for trump and it’s disgusting to pretend otherwise

        • DarkFuture@lemmy.world
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          Except they didnt vote for trump and it’s disgusting to pretend otherwise

          But they helped him become president. Do you understand that you can help someone become president even if you don’t vote for them? Is that a concept that you can grasp?

          • gamermanh@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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            But they helped him become president

            Millions of people in solid blue states didn’t vote, you think they helped Trump win?

            Blanket statements like “if they didn’t vote they voted for trump” are fucking stupid when you look at literally any detailed data

          • gamermanh@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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            3 days ago

            So we’re discussing a tiny portion of people now to avoid being called out for the authoritarian vote bullshit now, eh?

            • PugJesus@lemmy.world
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              So we’re discussing a tiny portion of people now to avoid being called out for the authoritarian vote bullshit now, eh?

              What is that supposed to even mean?

                • PugJesus@lemmy.world
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                  Bruh, I explicitly made the point of “Being a small part of the problem does not absolve people of being part of the problem”, and your response is

                  So we’re discussing a tiny portion of people now to avoid being called out for the authoritarian vote bullshit now, eh?

                  Between the fact that we were discussing a ‘tiny portion of people’ from the very start and that ‘authoritarian vote bullshit’ is a vague phrase that makes no solid assertions except “vote bad >:(” for some reason, you’ve said nothing of substance unless there’s some means of clarifying. I offered you a chance to clarify. You declined.

                  Don’t really know how much more help you want here. I’m not here to spoonfeed you, guy.

      • Flying Squid@lemmy.world
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        3 days ago

        Well said. I really wish people understood that blame can be shared because they really don’t seem to understand that and haven’t since November.

        • peregrin5@lemm.ee
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          They understand. They just don’t want the blame and want to shift the responsibility for their irresponsible actions to anyone but themselves.

      • lemmingthelemmers@lemmy.world
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        3 days ago

        Haha it’s people with flawed logic like you who deserve all the blame.

        People who think like you should have to pass aptitude tests before they vote since they literally lined up behind an undemocratically appointed presidential candidate who had no concrete policy position except vibez and no fundamental changes from Biden.

        People who couldn’t see an obvious and humiliating loss coming for Harris and the democrats since Biden was the candidate are the only people responsible for this disaster.

        The democrats could have given you options. They didn’t because they don’t care about you. They paraded around a half-dead 80 year old man as competent and made excuses for his ineptitude while telling everyone who said he wasn’t fit that they were the ones who were actually crazy. Then they do a last minute bait and switch because he is literally falling apart before the world’s eyes. They lied to you over and over and you are still carrying water for them. Does the history of the situation not matter now that Trump is president?

        That’s exactly why people are being called bluemaga.

        • PugJesus@lemmy.world
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          Yes, of course, how could I not see that “no fundamental changes from Biden” was a horror worth electing a literal fascist. Thank you for informing me that worsening every issue facing us was the preferable choice in order to teach those darn Dems a lesson. Many of us filthy poors and minorities will suffer and die, but that’s a sacrifice you and your’s are willing to make, right?

          • lemmingthelemmers@lemmy.world
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            Why are you hung up on the idea of teaching democrats a lesson? Democrats are not owed votes. They have to earn them. They did not earn them this time for a multitude of reasons, but you want to blame everyone else except them and their weak policies, weak campaigns, weak candidates, and shattered moral compass.

            You can prefer the slow unnoticeable slip into fascism the democrats were offering instead of the highway to hell version republicans are unrolling, but please just be honest about it.

            Biden did nothing to improve American’s every day lives. The cost of living keeps going up and all the democrats do is say, “hey, the parliamentarian that you have never heard of says we can’t do $15 minimum wage, but we can give ourselves raises and send billions to Ukraine for a proxy war and even more billions to Israel for a genocide. oh things are getting too expensive out there? slow down on the avocado toast. get a job as a coder. see our lives are fine, why are you all complaining.”

            We were going to end up in the same place whether democrats or republicans won. It’s just more pleasing to you draped in blue instead of red. I thought maybe TDS democrats would finally start fighting for Palestine once Trump came into office, but they instead turned their derangement on the people who don’t want American to fund and safeguard a genocide. Crazy times we are witnessing.

            • PugJesus@lemmy.world
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              Why are you hung up on the idea of teaching democrats a lesson? Democrats are not owed votes. They have to earn them.

              “Your genocide is an acceptable price to teach those damn Dems a lesson!”

              Yeah, I wonder why I’m hung up on that. Fucking fascist.

              We were going to end up in the same place whether democrats or republicans won.

              Privileged bothsides bullshit. Fuck’s sake.

              I thought maybe TDS democrats

              Mask-off, I see.

              • lemmingthelemmers@lemmy.world
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                You see nothing because you live in an echo chanber. You can’t see both sides are playing you because you don’t want to believe it. You need a bad guy and a good guy to come save you.

                Newsflash: Democrats aren’t saving anything except their own asses.

                Biden’s genocide was acceptable to you. Harris’s contiuation of the genocide would have been acceptable to you because it would mean Trump is not in office.

                You accept Trump’s genocide as well as long as you think you have some moral high ground over people who did not vote for Holocaust Harris. Uou tell yourself, “Yeah, it’s somebody else’s fault. Not mine for voting for the WORST CANDIDATE IN US PRESIDENTIAL HISTORY. It has to be the people who wanted this to end before it even began. How are my coconut vibez?”

                The masks are indeed coming off of bluemaga democrats. That is for certain. These people just as blinded in their rage towards Donald Trump as maga rages against marxists.

                The moral highground you believe you occupy is flooded with the souls of Gaza that Biden and Harris allowed to be exterminated and somehow you are blaming Trump for it. It’s an amazing braintrick you perform there.

                My advice is next time don’t throw your vote away.

      • Loss@sh.itjust.works
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        4 days ago

        Because the effect is the same. Sorry, again, you might finally experience what others have been.

        • recreationalcatheter@lemm.ee
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          If you think this shit is gonna be worse internally than externally; you’re gonna have a bad time.

          But hey, you know best right? Nobody told you what would happen before, right? They weren’t all proven correct, right?

    • Isthisreddit@lemmy.world
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      Id say anyone with half a brain, paid attention and was an informed voter knew exactly this is what we were in for - but it’s clear most Americans are not informed because of the huge number of people who didn’t participate (for whatever reasons)

      • Doomsider@lemmy.world
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        Highly engaged voters voted overwhelmingly for Kamala. Not because they liked her, but because they knew the alternative was dog shit. This is not an ideal situation.

    • cm0002@lemmy.worldOP
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      It wouldn’t have been a landslide, but it certainly assured the worst case scenario, MAGA sweeping all 3.

      Who knows how it would have gone down otherwise, maybe the Democrats regained the house, maybe held onto the Senate. Maybe Trump would have lost, but Republicunts held onto Congress.

      Who knows, but any of those would have been 10000x better than letting Drump get a hold of all 3.

      Now everyone is screwed in some way.

      • givesomefucks@lemmy.world
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        4 days ago

        MAGA sweeping all 3.

        A lot of the House Senate races are likely due to the “victory fund” nonsense Hillary started and was then passed down to Biden and Kamala

        The way it gets away donation limits is using the max from state parties. The last time we got to see the books was after 2016, and states got like 1% of what was donated “for them” to the DNC and Clinton campaigns

        There’s no sign anything has changed, and the neoliberals running the party have no requirements to disclose them

        So I just assume if they’re hiding the books, they’re hiding grifts at this point.

    • Psychodelic@lemmy.world
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      4 days ago

      What do you mean don’t blame the brown people for White America’s problems/identity crisis?