Summary
Churches across the U.S. are grappling with dwindling attendance and financial instability, forcing many to close or sell properties.
The Diocese of Buffalo has shut down 100 parishes since the 2000s and plans to close 70 more. Nationwide, church membership has dropped from 80% in the 1940s to 45% today.
Some churches repurpose their land to survive, like Atlanta’s First United Methodist Church, which is building affordable housing.
Others, like Calcium Church in New York, make cutbacks to stay open. Leaders warn of the long-term risks of declining community and support for churches.
I worked for an agency helping close a midwestern diocese. They branded it a positive thing but I was in the meetings with priests hearing the low down and how closings will go. It’s sad. Half the priests are old and just trying to get through. The other half want to help but are being told the cost of their renovations is more important. Let it crumble.
It’s quite a bummer to not have anything planned to take its place as a more healthy alternative, not to mention how it will impact the livelihood of some people.
If you compare it to coal, which may have employed about the same set of people (?), at least talk of retraining was being made…
As problematic as religion is, at least a lot of it was completely outside the sphere of commerce. I could see the broligarchs thinking this kind of thing being a good thing for them, since if people have fewer and fewer options outside of commerce, they’ll be forced to engage more and more with commerce, or else just be hermits.
Good.
Good.
Fantastic news, less grifting. Now shutdown mega churches.
Good.
Great news! Maybe we can finally tax these cults as well.
Taxing them would force more closures. Do it.
Considering scientology has their tendrils in a fair bit of Hollywood, that might actually backfire on government coffers. If they demand their members strike, the film industry is going to be in for pain.
No way would SAG strike over Scientology getting taxed. Scientology are parasites and we’d all be better off without them.
Not SAG, just the cultists. There’s enough of them in prominent roles that it would cause financial damage (including to themselves), delays, and problems.
If it’s not a real strike, then they’re replaceable. A “bye Felicia” sort of situation.
That’s easier said than done when it’s a lead actor refusing to work during filming. They’ll be breaching a contract, sure, but replacing them is going to waste money and time in recasting, rescheduling, refilming, etc.
Would they actually do it, knowing they’re in for a multimillion dollar lawsuit? Probably. The Cult of Scientology practices excommunication, and it’s a strong motivator for indoctrinees.
No, we don’t want to tax them. Remember “no taxation without representation”. Taxing them means allowing their influence in government.
Not to say that they aren’t already influencing our government, but taxing them just opens up the floodgates for it to be done on an official level.
Remember “no taxation without representation”.
I do, it referred to people deprived of a vote.
Houses are taxed. There is no branch of government representing houses.
That’s the point. They are influencing the government by picking political sides, which officially disqualifies them from tax exempt status but that’s something that’s never been enforced.
Does it? What makes them different from explicitly political nonprofits? Or do those not get tax-exempt status?
We tax businesses. We shouldn’t be allowing businesses or churches to influence government. I believe “no taxation without representation” is meant only to be applied to people.
No representation without taxation
Boardroom meme:
Boss: Church attendance is down. What can we do to turn this around?
Person 1: discreetly move pedophile pastors around to hide their proclivities?
Person 2: assure the congregation that we still hate gay people
Person 3: follow the teachings of Christ and show love and charity to our neighbors regardless of who they are
Person 3 is thrown out the stained glass window.
shocked Pikachu face
Person 2: Why don’t we literally do what Saudi Arabia / Iran does but Christian
I remember when someone (was it on Pharyngula?) coined the term “fatwa envy”. And maaaaaaan, did that really summarize it just so much. You can tell that some NatCs are downright jealous of what their conservative Abrahamic cousins can get away with in other countries.
I chuckled that the window in this meme was stained glass, instead of the highrise like it usually is.
I was pretty happy to see the Atlanta church mentioned in the article who appears to be opting for the third option!
The United Methodist Church in my town is similar. However, the American UMC just had a schism, where all the homophobes left for their new denomination.
It’s weird how history rhymes - see the formation of the Southern Baptists…
And nothing of value was lost
Pit of vipers closes due to insufficient snakebite volunteers.
chef’s kiss
churches are closing
Good
Leaders warn of the risks
The risks of what? The risk of not returning to the dark ages where we damn near all believed the imaginary writings of goat herders and killed for that?
Thanks, no thanks, I love that risk.
I think the risk more is the bad theology and idol worship that American Christianity is becoming. It’s sorta like how almost all mega churches are “non denominational.” There’s not a commitment to an actual ideology or set of religious beliefs, it’s become a strange cult fixated on Trump. It’s more dangerous in some ways because it’s less predictable. Being a “Christian” has nothing to do with believing that Jesus died on the cross for our sins, it’s more a conservative White identity status.
The cultists drive out the moderates who would keep things on an even keel.
sadfasfsadfd
Yes.
Say, Islam as a religion has the “cut in stone” part, the only way to change that is a new prophet. Literally. And it has the rest, which is up to very wide interpretation. And it doesn’t have a central authority (no Caliph today, though a certain ISIS type claimed that role).
So, that didn’t make Islam a more tolerant religion. Not even remotely.
Gotta wonder how things would have shaken out if Mohammad had a son survive long enough to take over.
With Islam, you do have multiple thorough legal traditions to choose from for authority. There’s at least some consistency. Iirc, there’s an entire system of grading Hadith based on how many steps removed they are from the prophet - while your average American Christian believes that Mark, Matthew, John and Luke wrote Mark, Matthew, John and Luke.
Evangelicals don’t have that kind of textual tradition, and what they do have is cockeyed squinting at their Bibles while trying to make it work with their pop culture understanding of theology. The focus on having a “personal” relationship with Jesus + sola scriptura when most of these folks have sub fifth grade reading levels means that whatever feels good at the time is what God wants.
I’ve met a lot of (ex-Soviet, that should be kept in mind) Muslims, most wouldn’t be able to tell the difference between this madhhab and that.
And Christian theology, when you don’t reduce it to average American Christians, has a lot of tradition.
What I mean … you typical Salafi is just like that:
when most of these folks have sub fifth grade reading levels means that whatever feels good at the time is what God wants.
Can we just agree that most people with religious identities don’t care about actual philosophy?
I don’t disagree with you about Christian theology in general. I think a part of it is that American Evangelical Christianity is rapidly diverging from what most would recognize as Christianity. I’ve seen a few news articles where pastors get pushback on things like the Sermon on the Mount. I’ve never a seen a literalist/dominionist advocate for the clearing of debts every 7 years; only stoning queer people. I could see Trump ending up as some sort of messiah figure.
I think Salafism and American evangelical fundamentalism have a lot in common; in my religious historiography class we discussed how increased literacy in general in the 19th century led to a lot of these “literalist” movements.
Can we just agree that most people with religious identities don’t care about actual philosophy?
100% - for the vast majority of individuals it’s more of a cultural/in group experience. Very enlightening when you study periods of mass conversion… usually more of a practical concern than one of conviction.
in my religious historiography class we discussed how increased literacy in general in the 19th century led to a lot of these “literalist” movements.
Literacy increase in 1920s-1930s USSR (European parts) led to a certain kind of people for whom things officially printed are obviously true.
They unironically consider it the ultimate argument that some general summary, that is printed in an official history book for schools, says what they say. They don’t get the idea of cross-checking sources, they don’t get the idea of hermeneutics, they don’t get the idea of dispute. Actually it’s worse - they think they get all these ideas, and all these ideas are barbarism, while reading something officially printed and not doubting it is enlightenment. It’s that bad.
The risk is that all the mindless drones and zealots that they have actively created over hundreds of years are now off somewhere else doing the same shitty things they were doing before but for someone else, potentially someone even worse than the church.
For example of a modern religion that exists outside of traditional churches, look at something like ufology. Then in Silicon Valley they have the new AI religion.
Just look at the overlap of religious fundamentalists and conspiracy believers.
They got the most crooked and bonkers president elected. Ah yes, the spoiled NYC billionaire is going to save the children from the lizard people. Praise be!
He definitely won’t be the first to sell Trump brand human skin to the lizards.
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Serious answer: an astonishing, alarming chunk of the american population believes the reason why there are social problems, things like school shootings et al, is because there isn’t enough religion. They truly believe that MORE religion is the answer. It’s disgusting and intellectually offensive, and I’ll fight to the death against anyone trying to force me to adhere to their superstitious dogma (praise be, under his eye). So you should be aware that’s the ideology.
Some churches repurpose their land to survive, like Atlanta’s First United Methodist Church, which is building affordable housing.
That’s something more churches should do. They always preach about “helping the poor” but most don’t give a fuck.
If every church took in two homeless people, there would be no homeless in America…
They’re more than happy to take in everyone’s dollars, though. Can’t get enough of those.
Reverend Larry:
I DO want your money, because god wants your money.
One of the best things my family church did to reach out to the community was running a low-cost daycare center in our tiny rural town. It helped local families, bolstered the church’s finances, and brought new families into the church.
Unfortunately, it was an Assembly of God church with toxic teachings that I’m still working through decades later. So … straights and roundabouts, I guess.
Those poor children. Churches and religion should be no where near education.
People often make the argument that churches do a lot of community service and charity work. Why, then, do you need to include the fairy tale nonsense of mystical deities? We can totally have organized groups of volunteers that do nice things for people, WITHOUT the mythological element involved.
I’ve since left the church and I don’t disagree with you. It shouldn’t be necessary to involve religion in providing needed services to a community.
But I also haven’t seen a lot of non-religious organizations offering practical services directly to the people who need them the most.
Don’t get me wrong: there are a lot of great nonprofit organizations that do amazing work. But they aren’t necessarily offering subsidized daycare or affordable housing on a scale that meets the needs of the communities where they operate. And very few of them are reaching out to people in rural areas. Churches still have something of a monopoly in those places.
I think this is largely due to the fact that faith communities have more cohesion than secular groups. All of the small secular groups I’ve been involved with have fallen apart after a year or two because the bonds that hold them together are simply not as strong as those in churches.
The whole bit about giving 10% of your income to the church as a duty to God is a fantastic racket. It means that the true believers think that God is keeping a ledger, and therefore they are more likely to support their church financially. So people in churches are literally more invested in their religious community, which gives their church the resources to provide services as social outreach.
And that’s not even getting into the power structures within the church and the role of a pastor as leader (that was missing from all of the secular groups I had experience with). Or the organizing power of a group of dedicated little old church ladies.
There are a lot of elements that churches are better at harnessing. And I haven’t encountered a good solution for creating a secular organization with the same kind of strength.
Strictly speaking, you don’t. Several denominations tried to throw out the mysticism in the 60s to significant backlash of the congregations. Mainstream denominational seminaries are actually pretty open minded from what i hear.
The triune mysticism can be looked at as an act by many denominations, it can’t be dropped because not enough of us skeptics engage with the religious systems locally to justify changing theology. If official positions becoke “well the trinity isn’t actually…” they risk loosing significant numbers of members. Changing that requires skeptical people to earnestly engage with churches and their congregations.
Almost like taxing them would have been better for society all along.
Government grifters and charlatan faith leaders have completely debased the idea of ‘Christianity’ over the past few decades to the point where most people associate Christianity as some joke religion that no one really takes seriously.
Personally, I see anyone who proclaims themselves as Christian as a liar, bigot, narcissist and someone lacking in empathy for others. Sure you can tell me about Jesus Christ but I associate anyone who claims him are just paying lip service to the religion and that they are just psychotic sociopaths who are only interested in power and money.
I don’t mind Churches dying out because they’ve basically destroyed their own religion themselves.
Unfortunately, humans are a dumb species that rely heavily on wanting to believe in something so once this religion dies out another one will take its place and repeat the process. It’s been happening for thousands of years so I don’t think we’ll stop that tradition any time soon.
most people associate Christianity as some joke religion
But, it started as an essenic cult. It’s not accidental that scient\ologists consider someone leaving the cult as a death, the same metaphoric resurrection if they return; you get how that’s similar, right? Your brother is executed instead of you, you have survivor guilt, you nope out of the cult, they call you dead, you reconsider over a few days, you’re back in - yay, it’s a resurrection!
Anyway, considering Christianity a bit of a scam or a sham isn’t strictly a new thing.
The small churches that are more likely to actually be charitable and are more likely to be inclusive will shut down. The bigot-run megachurches will be just fine.
The mega rich that run them are the fundamental issue.
As always.
Crazy that it takes the church shitting down for them to actually follow gods message of giving to the poor.
There’s shit down everywhere!
it’s shit turtles all the way down
They are working behind the scenes to push women back into the kitchen and stoking white nationalist rage.
And yet, somehow, they still make all the policy in this country.
A very vocal and very active minority I guess.
Interesting that they can’t stay afloat financially, because they don’t pay taxes.
Sometimes parasites suck their hosts dry.
OK I’ll make you a deal you no longer pay taxes but your full pay gets cut to 1/4 of what it is now.
Why do you think not paying taxes makes magic money appear? If people aren’t attending and donating they don’t have money to not pay taxes on in the first place.
80 to 45 is less than a 50% decrease
The nationwide statistics don’t tell the complete story, as local situations can vary significantly. While some congregations may be minimally affected, stable or growing, others are experiencing severe declines that threaten their sustainability. A dramatic decline in one location (such as a 90% drop in attendance at a single church) doesn’t necessarily reflect the national average.
And also you’re literally missing the point even if what you said was true for a given church, since I bet you wouldn’t want a 35% pay cut on your entire wage just to not pay taxes anymore either, and that depending on your circumstances that could affect your ability to live critically.
The internet is killing God but giving birth to a new age of conspiracy theorists.
So, not much has changed.
They feed on gullibility and a craving to be pushed around by authority. Sadly, those aren’t going away anytime soon.
Agreed. I welcome this, but I will withhold being optimistic that it means that it is because critical thinking skills are proliferating throughout the population…sure, it should be, because for decades now we have the ability to easily debunk really stupid claims nearly instantly, there are a lot of people making a lot of money pushing complete nonsense at people with algorithms now…
If I were to guess at the real reason it’s because, well, there is a lot of entertainment that church is in competition with: games, streaming services, social media, sportsball, reality TV and so on…and face it, attending church is generally dull as dirt.
Or the membership of individual churches is increasing, while the number of churches is declining. Reverend Bob’s Drive-Thru Church of Jeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeezus on a Jet Ski is probably doing roaring business.
Ha ha, the jet ski really paints a picture. The Righteous Gemstones did have those ridiculous monster trucks, but I don’t remember a jet ski!
Theist’s are killing god.
I pray to God everyday that i can live long enough to witness the day humanity completely abandons religion. Inshallah🙏
You will never witness this. God Emperor Leto is the Holy personification of Shai-Hulud and the Orange Catholic Bible is the only truth in the deep dark known Universe. The only faith humanity shall ever have constantly at its side is war.
