• lennybird@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    3
    arrow-down
    4
    ·
    7 months ago
    1. It’s a waste of time — Especially in an election year with so much on the line and post-primaries — to criticize Biden and instead better to criticize the groups who continue to support Israel. When the polls shift, the administration will shift… As has already occurred.

    2. I don’t give a fuck if you do, so long as you vote and support Biden in November. Palestinians and Ukrainians are counting on us, and the guaranteed-alternative is significantly-worse. I just had some other fool tell me they’re voting 3rd-party, so they are clearly supporting the enemies. I hope you’re smarter.

    • zbyte64@lemmy.blahaj.zone
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      3
      arrow-down
      1
      ·
      edit-2
      7 months ago

      Except that the voting uncommitted has actually worked to move Biden on the issue (Dems calling for an election in Israel).

      • lennybird@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        1
        arrow-down
        1
        ·
        7 months ago

        Has it? The real issue convincing those who are undecided or supportive of Israeli action; it’s less to do with the minority progressives threatening to not vote because everyone knows progressives will hold their nose. But it’s the swing-voter moderates and centrists who are less informed on the issues and easily-swayable by political talking-points — and who make up a far larger chunk of the electorate — that Biden is concerned about. When 1/3 are unsure if Israel is committing genocide and 1/3 say they’re not, that is a problem.

    • dumpsterlid@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      2
      arrow-down
      1
      ·
      edit-2
      7 months ago

      It’s a waste of time — Especially in an election year with so much on the line and post-primaries — to criticize Biden and instead better to criticize the groups who continue to support Israel. When the polls shift, the administration will shift… As has already occurred.

      It is clear as day that the only thing actually making Biden think twice about unconditionally supporting the mass slaughter of Palestinians is that he might actually lose the election because his opinions are so unpopular and brutal on the Palestinian genocide.

      Right now is THE TIME to grind everything about the Democratic Party to a halt until Biden gets the message that halting the supply of weapons to an ongoing genocide is a non-negotiable aspect of getting leftist (and muslim) voters. He doesn’t give a shit though that much is clear, once the election is over if he wins than all the pressure to actually do anything other than say empty words goes away.

      • lennybird@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        2
        arrow-down
        2
        ·
        7 months ago

        As I’ve repeatedly pointed out, the problem is this can only go so far before it works against him. All Democrats are doing is splitting his attention between two groups — and if he pivots too much to one side, he risks alienating an arguably even LARGER group of voters.

        So as I said, the best bet is to focus not on finger-wagging to Biden, but finger-wagging to the actual Pro-Israelis and undecided (who are 1/3 of the electorate). Thus if you want to continue influencing Biden, continue influencing the polls themselves and Biden will reflect that.

        He doesn’t give a shit though that much is clear, once the election is over if he wins than all the pressure to actually do anything other than say empty words goes away.

        I think it’s just the opposite. I think similar to the Afghan withdrawal once an election has passed he will take a very Anti-Israeli stance while amplifying his support for Ukraine as well.

        • Jentu@lemmy.blahaj.zone
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          3
          ·
          7 months ago

          He had no issues welcoming Nikki Haley voters to become part of his base probably because he knows how hard this election will be to win without the help of progressives and leftists. But he chose to move right instead of left, so he shouldn’t be surprised when people start treating him like a 2000s era republican.

          • lennybird@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            2
            arrow-down
            1
            ·
            7 months ago

            How has he moved right? Welcoming Haley voters is a sound strategy that is not mutually-exclusive to moving left, which he absolutely has on the topic of Israel.

            • Jentu@lemmy.blahaj.zone
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              1
              ·
              7 months ago

              Welcoming Haley voters is moving right. Defunding the UNRWA is moving right. The spending bill he was happy to sign still sends billions to Israel. Also, in that bill, it would limit aid to the Palestinian Authority if “the Palestinians initiate an International Criminal Court (ICC) judicially authorized investigation, or actively supports such an investigation, that subjects Israeli nationals to an investigation for alleged crimes against Palestinians.” Biden being more than willing to sign a “snitches get stitches” bill, bullying the rest of the world into letting Israel do whatever they want surely isn’t moving left.

                • Jentu@lemmy.blahaj.zone
                  link
                  fedilink
                  arrow-up
                  2
                  ·
                  7 months ago

                  I suppose you’ve heard that old adage of “if a person sits at a table with 9 nazis, there are 10 nazis at the table”. When trump welcomed the proud boys to his campaign, I had no doubt in my mind he was willing to cooperate with them to enact policy that would strengthen his coalition, and I feel the same about Biden with Haley Voters. It doesn’t help your case that he’s already pretty conservative to begin with.

                  • lennybird@lemmy.world
                    link
                    fedilink
                    English
                    arrow-up
                    1
                    ·
                    edit-2
                    7 months ago

                    I suppose you’ve heard that old adage of, “the enemy of my enemy is my friend.” After all, we sort of utilized that during WWII to fight the nazis,

                    So he hasn’t moved his policies whatsoever for Haley voters; he’s only appealing to never-Trump voters in order to ensure the real fascist doesn’t get elected. You following?

    • olivebranch@lemmy.ca
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      3
      arrow-down
      3
      ·
      7 months ago
      1. They don’t shift policies, they shift marketing. They will continue to support Israel because they are treating you with Trump and you have to vote for them whatever they do. So change is never going to happen.
      2. Either vote third party or don’t waste your time voting. You are getting nothing better with democrats. Trump is a candidate that was placed there by the democrats so they can have a better chance in the elections. In next elections they will simply move the goal post and get someone even worse for Republican party and whatever you are voting against in these elections will be the democrat position in the next one.
      • lennybird@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        1
        arrow-down
        1
        ·
        7 months ago

        Either vote third party or don’t waste your time voting. You are getting nothing better with democrats. Trump is a candidate that was placed there by the democrats so they can have a better chance in the elections. In next elections they will simply move the goal post and get someone even worse for Republican party and whatever you are voting against in these elections will be the democrat position in the next one.

        Ladies and gentlemen, a wedge-driving operative seeking to undermine Democrats and get Trump into office. There is literally zero evidence that “Trump is a candidate that was placed there by Democrats”. There is zero historical evidence voting third party does anything more than get the worse of two evils in office — and Ukrainians and Palestinians would much prefer Biden over Trump any day.

        This is the rhetoric of someone either not either not familiar with the political system, or intentionally trying to undermine the left by opening the door for conservatives.

          • lennybird@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            1
            arrow-down
            1
            ·
            7 months ago

            Nobody in the entire country would’ve disagreed with that strategy at the time, for quite literally everyone including Republicans thought Trump would doom the party. Hindsight is 20/20

            That, however isn’t the same as saying Trump is a Democratic plant colluding in disguise lol.

            • commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              1
              ·
              edit-2
              7 months ago

              Nobody in the entire country would’ve disagreed with that strategy at the time

              you are now shifting the goalposts from “it didn’t happen” to “it was a good idea”.

              That didn't happen.
              And if it did, it wasn't that bad.
              And if it was, that's not a big deal.
              And if it is, that's not my fault.
              And if it was, I didn't mean it.
              And if I did, you deserved it.
              
              • lennybird@lemmy.world
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                1
                arrow-down
                1
                ·
                edit-2
                7 months ago

                lol logged into a different account I see, wow.

                (funny this is the only comment you didn’t respond to, isn’t it FederatingIsToohard LOL)

        • commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          1
          ·
          7 months ago

          There is zero historical evidence voting third party does anything more than get the worse of two evils in office

          no such evidence is possible: you can’t prove a counterfactual. you can’t know who the worse evil would be. further it’s not clear that so-called “third party” voters actually impact elections at all unless their candidate wins.

          • lennybird@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            1
            arrow-down
            1
            ·
            edit-2
            7 months ago

            No, we can. 3rd parties have been around for decades and won nothing and only exacerbated the goals of said parties by undermining the only party that has tangible results.

            You prove my point.

            • commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              1
              ·
              7 months ago

              3rd parties have been around for decades and won nothing and only exacerbated the goals of said parties by undermining the only party that has tangible results.

              this simply isn’t true and reflects a myopic view of history. so-called third parties have been with us almost since the inception of the us, and have accomplished things inconceivable to modern politicians.

              • lennybird@lemmy.world
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                1
                arrow-down
                1
                ·
                edit-2
                7 months ago

                It simply is true. Even the longest serving Independent in congressional history caucuses and ran as a Democrat.

                But do tell what any third party from Libertarians to the Green Party have accomplished, relative to Democrats for the working class.

                Have you even heard of Nader or Perot?

                • commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com
                  link
                  fedilink
                  arrow-up
                  1
                  ·
                  7 months ago

                  Have you even heard of Nader or Perot

                  yes, and i also know that their candidacy had nothing to do with who won the two elections they are (erroneously) credited with spoiling.

                  • lennybird@lemmy.world
                    link
                    fedilink
                    English
                    arrow-up
                    1
                    arrow-down
                    1
                    ·
                    7 months ago

                    They’re (accurately) credited with spoiling said elections and it is yet another example of the complete toothless value of 3rd-parties.

                • commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com
                  link
                  fedilink
                  arrow-up
                  1
                  ·
                  7 months ago

                  what any third party from Libertarians to the Green Party have accomplished

                  the prohibition party got a constitutional amendment passed. the republican party completely usurped the whigs.

                • commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com
                  link
                  fedilink
                  arrow-up
                  1
                  ·
                  7 months ago

                  Even the longest serving Independent in congressional history caucuses and ran as a Democrat.

                  so? that doesn’t prove that so-called third parties are impotent. it shows that one person made some questionable decisions.

                  • lennybird@lemmy.world
                    link
                    fedilink
                    English
                    arrow-up
                    1
                    arrow-down
                    1
                    ·
                    edit-2
                    7 months ago

                    “Questionable decisions,” said the individual who had to dig back 100 years to find an example of any tangible progress made by such a 3rd-party…?

                    I think I’ll go with the party that actually has a track-record of progress this half-century.

            • commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              1
              ·
              7 months ago

              we can.

              it’s impossible to prove a counterfactual. you are either unfamiliar with the scientific method or you are deliberately lying.

        • commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          1
          ·
          7 months ago

          This is the rhetoric of someone either not either not familiar with the political system, or intentionally trying to undermine the left by opening the door for conservatives.

          false dichotomy. they may be familiar with the political system (even more than you or i), and not believe the same things you do. they may be a leftist. you are making up attacks on their person instead of dealing with the substance of their claims.

            • commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              1
              ·
              7 months ago

              that’s a thought-terminating cliche like saying it’s common sense. if you can’t support your position, that’s no reason to go off attacking other people as malevolent or incompetent.

              • lennybird@lemmy.world
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                1
                arrow-down
                1
                ·
                7 months ago

                My original statements remain largely untouched; it’s not my issue you deflected the aforementioned points. Why proceed further?

      • commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        4
        arrow-down
        4
        ·
        7 months ago

        Trump is a candidate that was placed there by the democrats so they can have a better chance in the elections.