No, that’s not why leftists struggle to achieve change in Capitalist systems, nor is your point anything other than a refusal to answer the points given.
No-True-Scotsman doesn’t apply if there are important definitional differences. Social Democracy retains the exact same power balances and mode of production as Capitalism, because it is Capitalism. Socialism isn’t merely a synonym for “good,” it is an alternative mode of production raised by leftists to solve the issues present in Capitalism.
An actual example of a No-True-Scotsman would be a Marxist saying Anarchists aren’t Socialists, or vice-versa, as they both maintain the same operation of Worker Ownership.
When you were a student, did you attempt to say your Biology teacher was doing a “No-True-Scotsman” when they explained that Spiders are Arachnids, not Insects? You truly can’t respond in good-faith, because you don’t actually care about being right, but refusing to acknowledge when you might actually be wrong!
I checked out of any possibility of a good-faith conversation when you said “that’s not socialism”. Any conversation that starts with splitting hairs about definitions goes nowhere. Especially about leftism. Or metal music.
What’s the difference between Leftism and Socialism, in your eyes?
I disagree with you saying that getting terms straight so we both know what the other is actually talking about will get nowhere. On the contrary, if we continued that conversation, there’s a much larger chance of nothing happening, don’t you think?
Tell me how I can be good-faith, in your eyes. I try to be, but you seem to always disengage as soon as a converation starts.
I don’t disagree about that metal take, btw. The splintering into a million subgenres has led to people fighting over genre-bending music.
What’s the difference between Leftism and Socialism, in your eyes?
Well, first I think I should give a note about framing: Socialism, Leftism, any of the -isms are all such large movements that there will necessarily be some overlap with multiple definitions, and I think that saying “x-ism is always this and never that” is a fool’s errand.
Both Leftism and Socialism are a kind of catchall umbrella term for a number of different more specific ideologies.
In general, I would say neoliberalism overlaps quite a lot with centrism, but a bit to the left of it. Neoliberalism grades away to socialism at roughly the point of social democracy (this is where I sit on the political spectrum). Socialism is a HUGE sphere, since it’s become a bit of a catchall term, but I would say Leftism starts where Socialism departs neoliberalism, and on the left end of the spectrum Leftism itself goes beyond socialism and into communism and its more radical forms.
Tell me how I can be good-faith, in your eyes.
Say “I think” instead of “this is so” when talking about ideologies. Ideologies are fuzzy, not rigid.
But what is Leftism and what is Socialism? You say they’re fuzzy as all ideologies are, but you don’t actually define any of them. Are they just vibes?
I think it makes more sense to define terms by their mechanics, rather than goals, or intentions.
Personally, it makes more sense to me to refer to Socialism by the mechanics raised and agreed upon by self-identifying Socialists for centuries. The common thread, whether Marxist, Anarchist, Syndicalist, or so forth, appears to be Worker Ownership of the Means of Production.
Why do you disagree with that? I get that you say that it’s fuzzy with ideologies, but certainly, you must see how it’s easier to define economic structures by their mechanisms, and not their goals, right?
I get that you say that it’s fuzzy with ideologies, but certainly, you must see how it’s easier to define economic structures by their mechanisms, and not their goals, right?
Wouldn’t “owning the means of production” be a goal, rather than a mechanism?
Social democracy for example still believes in workers owning the means of production, but with a degree of gradualism that most Leftists find icky.
Depends on what you’re talking about, I suppose. Are you including strategy in the definition of the structure?
I think, for example, Socialism is the structure, being Worker Ownership of the Means of Production. Different Socialist tendencies, such as Marxism, Anarchism, Syndicalism, and so forth, seek to establish this structure in different ways and means, and thus have their own structures and ways of achieving them.
I would, therefore, not classify Socialism as an ideology, but a structure, and Marxism, Anarchism, Syndicalism, and so forth, as ideologies.
Social Democracy is a bit unique, in that for many Social Democrats, Socialism (the structure) is largely off the table, at large! Social Democracy is what I would consider to be a truly centrist position - it combines state-run and owned industries like railways and oil production with Capitalism as the dominant mode of production.
In my view, Left and Right are largely useless terms, and as such should be used to refer to whether or not an ideology or structure is revolutionary or reactionary in terms of the underlying structure, so because global Capitalism is the dominant structure, Capitalist ideologies are right of center while Socialist ideologies are left of center. This fits with the French origins as well, back when Liberalism was revolutionary against Monarchism.
I’m curious why you consider Neoliberalism to be left of center, rather than right of center. Are you referring to the Overton Window, a vibe, or what? What do you consider to be “Socialism” itself?
No, that’s not why leftists struggle to achieve change in Capitalist systems, nor is your point anything other than a refusal to answer the points given.
No-True-Scotsman doesn’t apply if there are important definitional differences. Social Democracy retains the exact same power balances and mode of production as Capitalism, because it is Capitalism. Socialism isn’t merely a synonym for “good,” it is an alternative mode of production raised by leftists to solve the issues present in Capitalism.
An actual example of a No-True-Scotsman would be a Marxist saying Anarchists aren’t Socialists, or vice-versa, as they both maintain the same operation of Worker Ownership.
Did you actually just No-True-Scotsman the entire concept of a No-True-Scotsman?
Nah, I explained it to you.
When you were a student, did you attempt to say your Biology teacher was doing a “No-True-Scotsman” when they explained that Spiders are Arachnids, not Insects? You truly can’t respond in good-faith, because you don’t actually care about being right, but refusing to acknowledge when you might actually be wrong!
Touch grass.
I checked out of any possibility of a good-faith conversation when you said “that’s not socialism”. Any conversation that starts with splitting hairs about definitions goes nowhere. Especially about leftism. Or metal music.
What’s the difference between Leftism and Socialism, in your eyes?
I disagree with you saying that getting terms straight so we both know what the other is actually talking about will get nowhere. On the contrary, if we continued that conversation, there’s a much larger chance of nothing happening, don’t you think?
Tell me how I can be good-faith, in your eyes. I try to be, but you seem to always disengage as soon as a converation starts.
I don’t disagree about that metal take, btw. The splintering into a million subgenres has led to people fighting over genre-bending music.
Well, first I think I should give a note about framing: Socialism, Leftism, any of the -isms are all such large movements that there will necessarily be some overlap with multiple definitions, and I think that saying “x-ism is always this and never that” is a fool’s errand.
Both Leftism and Socialism are a kind of catchall umbrella term for a number of different more specific ideologies.
In general, I would say neoliberalism overlaps quite a lot with centrism, but a bit to the left of it. Neoliberalism grades away to socialism at roughly the point of social democracy (this is where I sit on the political spectrum). Socialism is a HUGE sphere, since it’s become a bit of a catchall term, but I would say Leftism starts where Socialism departs neoliberalism, and on the left end of the spectrum Leftism itself goes beyond socialism and into communism and its more radical forms.
Say “I think” instead of “this is so” when talking about ideologies. Ideologies are fuzzy, not rigid.
But what is Leftism and what is Socialism? You say they’re fuzzy as all ideologies are, but you don’t actually define any of them. Are they just vibes?
I think it makes more sense to define terms by their mechanics, rather than goals, or intentions.
Personally, it makes more sense to me to refer to Socialism by the mechanics raised and agreed upon by self-identifying Socialists for centuries. The common thread, whether Marxist, Anarchist, Syndicalist, or so forth, appears to be Worker Ownership of the Means of Production.
Why do you disagree with that? I get that you say that it’s fuzzy with ideologies, but certainly, you must see how it’s easier to define economic structures by their mechanisms, and not their goals, right?
Wouldn’t “owning the means of production” be a goal, rather than a mechanism?
Social democracy for example still believes in workers owning the means of production, but with a degree of gradualism that most Leftists find icky.
Depends on what you’re talking about, I suppose. Are you including strategy in the definition of the structure?
I think, for example, Socialism is the structure, being Worker Ownership of the Means of Production. Different Socialist tendencies, such as Marxism, Anarchism, Syndicalism, and so forth, seek to establish this structure in different ways and means, and thus have their own structures and ways of achieving them.
I would, therefore, not classify Socialism as an ideology, but a structure, and Marxism, Anarchism, Syndicalism, and so forth, as ideologies.
Social Democracy is a bit unique, in that for many Social Democrats, Socialism (the structure) is largely off the table, at large! Social Democracy is what I would consider to be a truly centrist position - it combines state-run and owned industries like railways and oil production with Capitalism as the dominant mode of production.
In my view, Left and Right are largely useless terms, and as such should be used to refer to whether or not an ideology or structure is revolutionary or reactionary in terms of the underlying structure, so because global Capitalism is the dominant structure, Capitalist ideologies are right of center while Socialist ideologies are left of center. This fits with the French origins as well, back when Liberalism was revolutionary against Monarchism.
I’m curious why you consider Neoliberalism to be left of center, rather than right of center. Are you referring to the Overton Window, a vibe, or what? What do you consider to be “Socialism” itself?