I’m impressed by pretty much everything I see from Offerman, and his role in TLOU was fantastic. It had real impact, and didn’t feel at all like the lazy tokenistic drivel that’s become Disney’s standard fare.
I’ll tell you why:
Because it, kind of like Brokeback Mountain all those years earlier, appreciates that homosexuality and the gay community are not one in the same. While the gay community is extremely important and should never be downplayed, media always tends depict gay people as connected to it or at the very least evoking many of the same aspects and tropes.
This isn’t an unfair thing to depict, far from it, but it has the unfortunate result of making many gay characters feels rather same-y, occasionally even one note.
Offerman’s character depicts a very accurate thing that doesn’t get as much attention in media: the straight acting man discovering his sexuality late in life. With the exception of his piano playing and his penchant for wine and setting the table for elaborate dinners, his character has none of the telltale “gay” aspects you typically find in media, nor does he develop them. In fact his character aspects (survivalist, paranoid, shut in, loner, even a hint conservative) are generally not associated with gay characters, out of fear of depicting them in a poor light.
That’s not at all to suggest other depictions of gay men are wrong or bad, Bartlett’s character is very well done too. The characters of Bill just feels more notable and fresher in our current media landscape because we see it far less often.
piano playing
Fellas, is it gay to play an instrument?
I know that’s not what you’re saying I just thought it was a funny way to phrase it
If you’re playing the skin flute, it might be gay… hahaha
Only if you don’t tell your bro “no homo” afterwards.
Also, is liking wine gay?
Men can only drink beer and whiskey. Everything else is gay.
/S
Allowing other homophobic men to determine what you should drink or do is the gayest act you could perform.
Also I wonder how long it’s going to take for ‘Gay’ to become good in mainstream lexicon? Probably until all the millennials die out huh? Fight the good gay fight!
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Look, not all pianists are gay, but all gay people play the piano.
how often must i gay to be able to play piano? because i love piano
At least 5/7
i’ve never even tried it with rice
Depends on how big the candelabras are.
And how sparkly the cape.
Mahvellous, dahling …
Depends, are you speaking of the skin flute?
I really appreciate this take. A lot of us are trapped in the closet for a variety of reasons and it takes years to finally be yourself comfortably. Once we are out, we can exist as just people…if our community lets us that is.
homosexuality and the gay community are not one in the same
I think a lot of people don’t understand that being GSRM does not automatically make you part of the LGBT community.
GSRM
“Gender, Sexual and Romantic Minorities“ for those like me who didn’t know the acronym.
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I think this is a good take, but my criticism of Disney is more in line with my perception of their business model - art by focus group.
They know that if they combine these 3 IP’s with these 3 diversity checkboxes, the movie will return x, meaning they have a budget of y to deliver a given ROI. Much like their endless parade of remakes, it’s cynical commercislism that has no interest in storytelling artistic value, or representation - and it shows.
To your point, TLOU separated the relationship from the community, and while the community representation is important, this type of representation is critical to normalising homosexual relationships - “oh - they’re in a regular loving relationship just like me - it’s not all disco music and flapping about in sparkly clothes, making catty comments.” kinda deal.
I got to see his standup routine a few months back and it was hilarious and wholesome.
Offerman is becoming more and more a chad in my eyes and that love story was really really good and its coming from someone who really hates comedy and romance genre but gotta say it was really good.
Read his books, but only if you’re a lefty. I showed my boomer parents and they hated it.
Which books ?
I’ve listened to Paddle Your Own Canoe on audiobook (he narrates). Dunno about the rest, but I’d agree based on that one. He makes it clear pretty quickly that Ron Swanson was just a character and his views are different and more nuanced.
The only similarities between Nick Offerman and Ron Swanson are his giggle and his faithfulness to his friends.
Wood working and a very erotically charged relationship with Megan Mulally too
And he really does play the saxophone.
I know he’s liberal in real life, but the way he plays Ron in parks and rec is how I wish conservatives actually were in real life.
He’s not a “conservative” in Parks and Rec, he’s an actual libertarian.
The greatest trick neocons ever pulled was tricking right libertarians into thinking they were small government.
Nick Offerman has always been Cool and Good
When did “a Chad” become a positive term? From my experince growing up it was a mid-west term for rich city kids, and then later on the internet it became a red piller/incel term for “Alpha male”.
Is this one of those “taking it back” and owning it things to take power away from red pillers & incels?
Nick Offerman:
I’ve enjoyed the hell out of his content. I loved it when
Adam SavageThis Old House did a shop tour with him. I’ve also listened to his Twain’s Feast audiobook and enjoyed the hell out of that. The historical journey through American regional cuisine was amazing. And how much we’ve actually lost is even more amazing.I think it’s just more ironic than “taking it back”. I don’t think anyone worth respecting would call themselves “a Chad”.
So in context for this, a dude doubling down on his gay love story is certainly not what an incel would attribute to “a Chad”, but the rest of us could look at Nick Offerman and say “damn, I respect the hell out of that guy, what a Chad”.
When did “a Chad” become a positive term? From my experince growing up it was a mid-west term for rich city kids, and then later on the internet it became a red piller/incel term for “Alpha male”.
In my extended friend group we use Chad as a comedyish thing to call someone when they do something cool/good or perceived as cool/good but we mean it. While someone calling themselves a Chad in a non self deprecating way is usually a dbag.
Nick Offerman is better than any any “Chad”. He’s an Offerman. The Chad’s wish they could be as dope as him.
I don’t know how anyone could watch that episode and see anything other than an absolutely heart wrenching tale of love and how beautiful and sad and even stupid it can be. You don’t even have to be gay to identify with it, you just have to be human.
I dunno. I really like the episode, but Frank was super manipulative and it felt like Bill was being romance-conned.
I agree, and that complexity is part of why I loved the episode so much. It feels bittersweet, because I get the sense that if not for the whole world ending, Frank could’ve easily spent his whole life in the closet. It was cute to see him navigating a relationship with the same sweetness of a teenager with their first love, but that also comes with there being a pretty significant emotional maturity gap between Bill and Frank.
That by itself isn’t an issue (and because of varying degrees to which LGBTQ people feel safe to be out, varying levels of romantic or sexual experience is a fairly common theme I’ve seen within the community irl), but I also think there were some iffy vibes in the dynamic which went unchallenged, likely because neither of them wanted to disrupt a dynamic that they felt lucky to have.
It reminded me a lot of a lesbian friend of mine who stayed with her first girlfriend for way too long because they were the only two out lesbians in the tiny town. They were an awful fit for each other and they stayed together for years longer than they should’ve because they felt like there weren’t any other options (and indeed, there wasn’t really, not in that town).
So overall, Frank and Bill’s story was a beautiful and sweet story of love blooming in improbable circumstances, but it also had nuance from the subtle darker undertone to the relationship. For me, it highlighted that ultimately this was a tragic love story, and the tragedy was only partly caused by the zombie apocalypse.
As all good love story, it’s complex and withultiple facades, which made it even more realistic and well-written
I find it to be a great 1 hour of television, but due to Frank’s manipulative nature and the aforementioned romance con it felt like, I wouldn’t classify it as a good love story.
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I remember when it was coming out, and everyone on reddit was going gaga over how faithful to the story it was.
Then that episode came out and everyone loved it, so as someone who didn’t play the games, naturally I wondered if it was in the game, as that had been apparently of utmost importance to the fans.
But merely asking “was it in the game?” got an army of angry people calling me every name in the book.
I never even watched the show because I thought that was just so fucking stupid. Fans ruin every franchise.
People had a knee-jerk reaction to your question because there were lot of conservative snowflakes at the time complaining that they added “woke” politics to the show (a ridiculous idea, but I probably don’t need to tell you that).
Fans of the show were on edge and defensive, don’t let the “culture war” ruin your experience. I highly recommend watching the series.
And, to answer your question earnestly, in the game Bill and Frank’s relationship was only implied in a note that Frank left to Bill after killing himself. The show focused heavily on their relationship and took it in the opposite direction; a decision most fans loved, because it was done really well. In the game, Bill rejected Frank’s attempts to let other people into their life and drove him away, while in the show Bill slowly opened up and lived a long happy life with Frank despite the apocalypse.
And the best single episode love story ever.
I didn’t watch the whole season, but Jesus, THAT episode was awesome. I nearly cry at the end. I’m a big Nick fan, and he was perfect for the role.
The most Offerman thing to say. 👍
I want Nick Offerman to be my dad. And I even love my real dad. (sorry dad)
So you’re saying you want two dads? The gay agenda is confirmed, folks!
/s (if it wasn’t obvious enough)
My dad’s pretty awful. Can I have your dad so you can have Nick Offerman?
I agree with the sentiment of the article, but the author can jump off a bridge for perpetuating the “SLAMS” bullshit.
I mean, was it written by a real person?
What’s SLAMS?
An overused word that the authors of clickbait use to make a petty complaint sound like something with actual teeth.
Oooh lol I thought it was an abbreviation I didn’t know. I just knocked on my head and said, “hello? Is this thing on?” in a comical way so I should be fine now.
Simultaneous Localization And Mapping
This is decade’s old practice. Remember headline space used to actual have to fit on real papsr.
The episode was directed by the same guy who directed all of “It’s a Sin”, another incredible bit of telly.
I think the Last of Us demonstrates the difference between writing a story around the character vs the sort of crap in other shows where inclusivity is more like a box ticking exercise and a casting quota.
It was a love story and it was touching. I had to look away during the intimate scenes as watching two guys making out gives me the heebie jeebies.
I’m sorry you’re getting downvoted. You’re allowed to like things and dislike things, as long as tolerance and respect are given for others’ choices. It seems like you’re doing that here.
Acceptance for something you like and enjoy is pretty easy and natural. It’s a bit harder, and takes more thought and courage, to show respect and tolerance for things you don’t like and don’t enjoy, but you accept them anyway because it’s the right thing to do and it’s a part of being a human on this planet with billions of other humans. Grow up, lemmy.
Very well said, I agree.
OP was being honest without being derogatory. It sounds like perhaps they may have experienced some personal growth from watching the episode.
If OP hasn’t been around gay people who openly express physical affection, they may have felt initially uncomfortable. But that’s why representation is important.
That’s why movies, TV, books, and visual arts are so important to us as a culture and as individuals; exposure to new ideas helps us grow and become better people.
Agreed. Well said.
I originally had it downvoted, but you’re right, they aren’t being directly disrespectful. Besides, saying it was a touching love story first and foremost is evidence enough that OP isn’t an asshole, just a human with human opinions. I apologize, and have rescinded my previous judgement.
That being said… Getting the “heebie jeebies” from watching 2 dudes kiss is a red flag that OP has some deep rooted homophobic views/tendencies, which is absolutely something they need to address in their own time. Maybe not here, on the internet, in front of several thousand schmucks making dick jokes; but if that’s how it has to be in order to bring OPs attention to it, then so be it.
I’m all for having your own opinions, but if a same sex couple being romantic grosses you out while a heterosexual couple doesn’t, that feels like something you should do some soul searching over lol. OP might be a great person irl, but I do think it’s important to recognize your own shortcomings and address them where possible. God knows we all have enough of em
I originally had it downvoted, but you’re right, they aren’t being directly disrespectful. Besides, saying it was a touching love story first and foremost is evidence enough that OP isn’t an asshole, just a human with human opinions. I apologize, and have rescinded my previous judgement.
That is awesome, and so rare in online discourse. I really appreciate that.
I’m all for having your own opinions, but if a same sex couple being romantic grosses you out while a heterosexual couple doesn’t, that feels like something you should do some soul searching over lol. OP might be a great person irl, but I do think it’s important to recognize your own shortcomings and address them where possible.
You kind of lose me here. I think it’s not my place to judge someone whether they like or don’t like observing homosexuality. If they’re respectful, and show tolerance and acceptance, then whether they like it is not really my concern. It’s certainly not my place to judge whether they have ‘soul searching’ to do. I agree that saying it gives them the “heebie jeebies” isn’t the most respectful way to say they don’t care for it, but on the scale of ways to put that, it’s way, way down towards the harmless end. In my opinion it certainly wasn’t egregious enough to warrant the absolute avalanche of downvotes and judgement that person was getting.
You’re already showing incredible empathy and the ability to be self-reflecting. I encourage you to stop judging others for saying they don’t like the things you think they should like. Instead, we should hold each other to the standard that we are respectful and tolerant of others whether we like what they’re saying and doing or not. Unless, of course, that tolerance is of those who express intolerance, but then we’re squarely in Paradox of Tolerance territory and that’s a whole other thing.
Character arc, the good ending lol
Getting the “heebie jeebies” from watching 2 dudes kiss is a red flag
Eh… I regularly watch gay porn and have no trouble seeing guys suck dick and fuck eachother but I skip past the kissing scenes because I just don’t like it at all. I genuinely can’t explain why.
As a good exercise for personal growth, you should ask yourself why seeing that gives you the heebie-jeebies.
Eh, I think it’s pretty clear that some amount of homophobia is innate as much as homosexuality is. Some people just plain find it gross. As long as they respect everyone’s right to have their own lifestyle, that’s really what tolerance and getting along is all about. We can’t except everyone to like everything, so we should be proud when they put up with harmless things they don’t like.
I wouldn’t say innate, that makes it sound like humans are born homophobes.
Unavoidable when you’re raised in a homophobic society and something to improve.
I don’t think the argument has been phrased well by anyone but there is possibly something to it, it’s just that ‘heebie jeebies’ is a really loaded and unhelpful phrase. I think a lot of people insert themselves into the media they watch, so if they are not sexually or romantically interested in men, watching two men kiss may not be a 100% positive experience for them, in the same way that watching two straight people kiss might not be the most engaging experience for a gay person.
If you watch the comedy masterpiece Norbit, the intent of the Eddie Murphy’s relationship with his large wife, also played by Eddie Murphy, is to cause distress on the viewer in a similar fashion. It’s very avant-garde in that way
I did actually choose innate intentionally. While I’m sure trying to prove it would be an absolute bitch, it’s not unreasonable to suggest some people’s homophobia can be innate in the same way homosexuality or asexuality can be. Some people are just built that way.
In any case, I think the mechanism is somewhat irrelevant when it comes to my point. If you think something is disgusting but you know it’s fundamentally harmless, well, learning to get along is what it’s all about!
I don’t disagree and I’m not trying to shame or put anyone down, my point is just that it’s productive and enlightening to learn these things about ourselves when we can. For me at least, it helps me improve in areas I find myself lacking, and meet other people where they are when they see things differently than I do.
Excellent point!
Well said. I think it’s important to analyze your own prejudices so you can grow as a person; but so long as you accept that they are your own personal views and, most importantly, remain respectful of others, it’s not doing any real harm
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Honestly, thanks for still watching it anyway. Don’t know why you are getting downvoted. If it was a touching love story about morbidly obese people, I would get the same heebie jeebies.
You are part of the change that needs to happen in the world, we can’t help what makes us feel queasy, but you both respecting their performance, the story AND your own sensibilities IS how we achieve progress.
Proud of you, no sarcasm.
Thanks :) I wouldn’t consider Offerman morbidly obese, just chonky.
CHONKY
Watch it again, this time keeping in mind it weren’t real strawberries anyway because Hollywood
You are a weak person
Yeah, watching anyone making out gives me heebie jeebies but I still stare at them to assert dominance
ಠ_ಠ
You are what’s wrong with “progressive” or “left” or lgbt friendly circles. Fuck your judgement, you pathetic asshole. Public displays of affection give MANY people the heebie jeebies, regardless of gender, you judgemental prick.
Based.
A love story without affection sounds hollow. The original comment specifically singled out an expression of affection displayed by gay characters in a romance story, they did not say in their original comment that public affection in general is what bothers them. That led me to believe they have some homophobic feelings in their original comment, which is where my response came from. With either original intention, be it a distaste for love stories or homophobic origins, you’re quite aggressively upset. I suggest maybe you don’t watch love stories if you don’t like public displays of affection, just a thought.
You are the one coming in here and being hostile. I’m just giving in kind. People don’t have to have personal issues to not want to stare at others making out.
You are just further showing how judgemental without thought you are. You have failed to mature and fundamentally understand that others do not have the same perspective as you.
Shame on you for pretending to have the high road.
It was my favorite episode. It was a beautiful story.
God I love that man
I loved that episode and I love Offermans pov about it!! Do I like this episode as part of Last of Us? No, I was expecting something different from this series. More action and adventure, less emotional trauma and humanity.
I think the show is trying too hard to lean into the emotional side of the apocalyptic scenario, and I think the TV scene is already saturated with kind of stuff. I wanted something which would be more focused on the main characters, their experience, and the action and adventure as captured in the game.
Should there be more stories about gay love in different scenarios? Yes. Is it okay that this story showed up under this context? Definitely, overall it’s a great story and I am better off for having experienced it. Do I like it as part of Last of Us? No, my expectations were different. I would say the same if the love story was between a heterosexual couple.
Edit: that said, given the bias and discrimination against LGBTQ+ folk, I am not surprised that writers (who are often overwhelmingly empathetic) choose to add such stories in their work
Do I like this episode as part of Last of Us? No, I was expecting something different from this series. More action and adventure, less emotional trauma and humanity.
Hmm, for me that’s a strange take from someone who played the games. The heart of the Last of Us always was about tragedy and how humanity handles such a catastrophe. Action and adventure in the games was mostly there to not loose interest as a gamer between the story. That’s just how these two different medium work. Obviously a live action series can’t work on the same formula to keep it’s audience engaged. That’s one reason why there wasn’t that much zombie action since too much of it will get old pretty quickly and the writers didn’t wrote a brainless zombie action adventure but a human drama tale.
Stop acknowledging it, Nick. Embody Ron Swanson at Home Depot for just a moment. Some internet freak is complaining about the Frank/Bill episode of TLOU? Is breathing life into their argument by acknowledging it above or below Ron Swanson’s pay grade? Does he in fact “know more than you”?
Nah. Disagree. I’m gay, and as much as I wish we didn’t, we need people to stand up there and say, no, fuck you. This is a love story. They just love each other.
As much as I agree with your sentiment, anti-gay bigotry is nothing new, and will never go away. Let bigots scream themselves red in the face.
