EDIT: you guys have dug up some truly horrible pisstakes :D Thank you for those.

To the serious folk - relax a little. This is Mildly Infuriating, not I'm dying if this doesn't stop. As a non-native speaker I was taught a certain way to use the language. The rules were not written down by me, nor the teachers - it was done by the native folk. Peace!

  • random9@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    17
    arrow-down
    1
    ·
    9 months ago

    I’ve corrected people a few times on this, but then I looked it up, and from what I understand, since language is defined by usage, saying “less” when technically it should be “fewer” is still generally correct. It still sounds alright to me, though oddly the reverse (using “fewer” when it should be “less”) sounds fewer (aka less) correct to me.

    • stoly@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      11
      arrow-down
      2
      ·
      9 months ago

      I’m a linguist and this is the answer. The correct usage is however people use it, not how a book editor, dictionary, or your third grade teacher think it should be used.

      Example: “there’s” for both plural and singular rather than “there are” versus “there’s/there is”.

      • EatATaco@lemm.ee
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        1
        ·
        9 months ago

        however people use it,

        The way this is phrased, it sounds like you can’t be wrong. So I would just clarifying that if both the speaker and audience agree on the intent of the speaker, it’s correct.

        • stoly@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          1
          ·
          9 months ago

          There is the concept of an ideolect and you can very easily argue that something is correct as long as some native speaker thinks so…

      • FMT99@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        2
        arrow-down
        1
        ·
        9 months ago

        joor rite spelin is stoopit an sos punktution. Pandas be damned.

      • bitwaba@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        1
        arrow-down
        1
        ·
        9 months ago

        The correct usage is however people use it

        If people use “literally” figuratively, does that mean that they’re evolving the language? Or are they just idiots?

        • stoly@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          1
          ·
          9 months ago

          The language is evolving. “Literally” now means “literally” and also "very much so.

          I have worked as a book editor, and so my instinct is often to be corrective/prescriptive. The linguist side of me usually wins out, though.

        • EatATaco@lemm.ee
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          1
          ·
          9 months ago

          Literally is now even officially a contranym. Additionally in the process of making the decision to make it a contranym, they pointed to a number of examples of famous English authors using it as in the way these “idiots” use it.

          Language evolves.

          • bitwaba@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            1
            ·
            9 months ago

            What is the line for language evolution ?

            If I start calling dogs “cats” tomorrow, am I wrong? Or have I just taken the first steps towards making my mark on the English language?

            • EatATaco@lemm.ee
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              1
              ·
              edit-2
              9 months ago

              If I start calling dogs “cats” tomorrow, am I wrong?

              If your audience knows what you mean? No. If your audience has no idea what you mean? Yes.

              Or have I just taken the first steps towards making my mark on the English language?

              If it becomes a norm? Yes.

              But what does this have to do with the price of tea in China? We were talking about literally, and how it is literally (the way you mean it) a contranym now. Using it to only mean figuratively (the way you want it to be used), especially when it had been used that way for a long time and even has a history of using is no longer “idiotic” it’s just a common usage of the term. It mildly irks me too, however, I can’t remember the last time I was actually confused by the intent of the speaker.

              • bitwaba@lemmy.world
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                1
                ·
                9 months ago

                Well, my personal options on literally are that it is not being used to mean figuratively, it is being used in a figurative manner for weight and effect. The same way that yeah and right are both positive/agreement words, but can be used in a figurative manner to mean the opposite. If someone says “they turned the frogs gay!” And someone responds “riiiiiiiiiight…”, right still means “that statement is correct” but it was used with an inflection that implies the opposite. That doesn’t mean the dictionary definition of right now needs to be updated to fall in line with 21st century sarcastic smart ass linguistics.

                So, I dont actually think the definition of literally has changed, and I disagree with any dictionary that says it has and now needs to include an additional definition of the word that means the opposite.

                The reason I was asking is because you, like me, seem to care about this more than the average person. So I was curious of your thought on the matter in hopes that I might gain some additional insight on the matter that I didn’t have before.

                It mildly irks me too, however, I can’t remember the last time I was actually confused by the intent of the speaker.

                That’s the same feeling I would have if someone told me a story where they were “habilitated by fear” instead of “debilitated by fear”. I know what they mean. That doesn’t mean the word they used means the same thing though.