the fact our overlords push so hard that communism is so evil is what made me look into it.
turns out its just a number of ideologies that basically wants to get rid of them in different ways, so no shit in retrospect.
Universal? Any kind of social program is called communism.
Any kind of social program is called communism.
Glim-Glam is pleased.
It’s all fun and games until Stalliongrad snowballs and joins the war
I hear lots of people say shit like “eat the rich!”
Or “global strike!”
But it never seems to go anywhere.
Ain’t hungry enough yet
we need to do something! but first, let me finish my beer
And Americans still believe we were on the right side of the Iraq and Afghanistan wars. Nationalism is the same everywhere.
Russia and its vassal countries are Orwellian dystopias. The USA and its vassal countries are Huxleyan dystopias.
There is a little Orwell here and Huxley there. Like a yin yang type of thing
And so we pat ourselves on the back for not falling for the “capitalist propaganda,” not recognizing all the propaganda that we have fallen for. I’d mention some examples but of course that would garner downvotes and disapproval, and thus the cycle continues.
Who cares about downvotes? Give us your best examples - if they are indeed good, you may encourage people to think more about them, which is worth more than any amount of upvotes in the grand sheme of things.
Okay, here’s a whole bunch I can think of off the top of my head.
- Opposition to DEI initiatives, feminism, affirmative action, immigration, etc., are rooted in racism/sexism. Even dislike for certain movies is rooted in racism/sexism.
- People are being stolen from and/or their privacy is being violated when companies use public data about them to train AI, target ads, etc. People get really mad about this.
- On a similar note, AI art “has no soul” and AI artists aren’t “real artists.”
- Hamas and/or Israel are evil. Pick whatever position you want on this conflict, there’s a flood of propaganda pushing it and reasoned discussion that goes against it is hard.
- Everything Elon Musk does is somehow evil or idiotic.
- Cryptocurrency is a scam. AI is a scam. <insert some other new technology> is a scam.
- Religion is bad.
- All cops are bastards.
- Unions are good and corporations are bad. Heck, the “capitalism is bad” message in this comic is itself propaganda.
- Cancelling major NASA initiatives like Artemis or Mars Sample Return (or James Webb, Space Shuttle, etc. historically) would be a disaster for space exploration and science, despite their wildly spiralling costs.
Okay, that last one is perhaps getting down into the weeds of one of the more particular communities I find myself in. :)
Of course, there are other communities out there that I’m not commonly in that I expect have the opposite “everyone agrees” views on a lot of these things - DEI is part of some “gay agenda” conspiracy to groom children, Elon Musk is an infallible messiah, cops are the thin blue line protecting us from criminals, unions are destructive to the economy and cause unemployment, and so on and so forth. Propaganda is highly specific to its target audience, as this comic suggests.
The fundamental problem is just that in any significant group or community there are always hot-button issues that “everyone agrees” about, and attempting to question or discuss them with any nuance gets shouted down.
Those ideas you listed are indeed often spread by means of propaganda, but the word propaganda has gained a negative connotation that is itself lacking nuance and is thus undeserved.
Any information disseminated that reflects the views or interests of any particular doctrine or cause - even just your own - is propaganda. If you have publicly expressed any sort of political opinion at all, you have engaged in propaganda.
The word was more useful when widely disseminating information required lots of resources or coordinated effort. Now that anyone can easily do so in a second, the word casts too wide a net to be useful in determining what information is expressed in earnest, and what information is deceptive.
When I see propaganda I first consider where it’s coming from. Does it have the backing of mainstream media? Is it publicly/privately funded? Is it facing opposition, and if so from who? Is it grassroots or is it astroturfing?
Edit: Using the comic we’re commenting under as an example, it is indeed propaganda. That of course is not a useful categorization, so we’ll consider its’ source. The creator of this comic Alzward is independent and their funding seems to come both from crowdsourcing and from selling access to their comics on Webtoons. The scale suggests this is just an independent artist supporting themselves, and that their art - and by extension this comic - is not influenced by money to a great extent. From this we can infer that the views expressed in this comic are expressed in earnest by the artist. The artist’s views may themselves be influenced, but that’s beyond the scope of this discussion. In other words, this is grassroots propaganda.
Propaganda derives from the foreign missions of the catholic church to propagate their faith. This was later generalized to include any messaging with the intention of propagating a belief system, and, after WWI began to also be inflected by a sense that it is deliberately misleading.
The word “propaganda” isn’t what needs “saving.”
I’m not trying to “save” the word propaganda. In highlighting its over-broad definition in combination with its negative connotation, I am actually advocating against its use.
“saving”
Also, don’t use quotes around something the person you’re responding to didn’t say. You are now the second person I’ve responded to in this thread to have done so.
I’ll “definitely” stop doing that for you.
How are those conspiracy theories? They are consensus you disagree with that people are sensitive about? Where is the conspiracy? Just that most people disagree with you?
A lot of these “theories” that you disagree with have no conspiracy in them. Mate you’re just angry that most people disagree with you.
Not the OP but let’s fish for down votes.
The Azov battalion are Nazis in Ukraine and Russia is actively trying to exterminate them.
The Russian military brought peace to Syria while the US funded Syrian terrorists.
We call Iran terrorists while the US actively terrorized Iran by murdering their generals without provocation.
The US actively pirates Iranian shipments.
The US changes the definition of words to fit their needs. US isn’t in a recession because the government changed how we define recessions.
China is actively committing a deathless genocide because like institutionalized racism we are generalizing the concept of cultural genocide to cover all definitions of genocide.
The Chinese economy is bad because they only grew 5%.
The fentanyl issue is blamed on everyone except the US own incompetence. Whether it be Purdue, or Mexico or China but definitely not a US enforcement issue.
And that’s just off the top of my head.
*Edit. I see my votes have turned positive now that I’ve clarified my personal position on the Ukraine conflict. But let me point out that my facts didn’t change only that I’ve pointed out I’m against Russia.
But this is my point. We should stop down voting facts simply because they’re uncomfortable. That’s how we get presidents like Trump.
except for the first all of these are interesting. As for the first: I am pretty sure there are nazis on both sides, and the Azov-thing is a very very flimsy excuse for the war.
No
Since when does Russia have universal welfare? I thought it was a burning pile of feces when it comes to any social services.
Pretty sure they’re talking about the anti-universal healthcare propaganda in the States. Downplaying the wealth gap happens here plenty, too.
I see. Yeah, I take fine understand why people in the US are so masochistic when it comes to health care…
And anti any safety nets or some worker protections
You would be wrong about that. My parents live in Russia and the services are fine. My mom can get an ambulance with a Doctor to come to her house for free whenever she feels ill. In the US, I would pay an arm and a leg for an ambulance without a doctor. That’s part of the problem, actually - life is decent in Russia, at least in Moscow, so people don’t rebel.
Also, “unprecedented information” doesn’t apply. It’s literally illegal to access this information in Russia. My mom has a VPN cause I had one set up for her. Otherwise she would be cut off from the outside world. She has a dummy phone without any forbidden apps that she takes with her on walks. Young people figure out a way, but anyone who is not tech savvy is fucked.
Since before it was independent state
Things like UBI is part of the propaganda you’re complaining about.
It’s a poison pill promoted by wealthy people like Andrew Yang to distract from the need for increases in minimum wage.
If minimum wage increases corporations have to pay. With UBI, then the government pays and it doesn’t cost the corporation.
But they already know it’s not politically viable and will never happen anyway. Even if it does, they still don’t going to pay out. Classic Xanatos Gambit.
But the main point of UBI is to get people that would normally push for an increase in minimum wage to push for UBI instead. Then the right wing can say “these clowns just want free money from the government.” Centrist don’t go along with it and it never happens. And neither does an increase in minimum wage which is much harder to argue against, but nobody is arguing for because of the distraction that is UBI.
UBI is all about making people take up a losing cause instead of raising minimum wage which would be a winning cause.
You swallowed the poison pill of UBI, so no minimum wage increase is happening. Their propaganda worked.
Your counterpoint to UBI is a higher minimum wage? Yes, lets ensure everyone must work for the capitalists; that will free us. Wow, you are the poison pill.
Wow, I don’t usually find myself on this side of the argument, but…
Did you even read what he said?
In a republic, which we are, people have to agree on policy and their representatives vote for what the people who elect them want.
The Overton Window dictates what we can feasibly pass with popularity within a system like ours. Like it or not, the majority of voters’ opinions fall within this window, and by definition, what is acceptable for our politicians to run on falls within this window. Also, the Overton window of the US has been shifting right so that actual leftist policies are outside of that window (see how little it takes for someone here to cry about how socialism is ruining everything)
Raising the minimum wage is just inside the left border of the Overton window right now. It’s acceptable to talk about and most people with a clear understanding of how poverty works agree that it’s a viable solution to remedy one of our nation’s biggest problems.
You know it’s inside of the window because various states have actually passed those changes. It’s acceptable to talk about that happening on a national scale when we can see it work on a state scale.
UBI is so far left of our Overton window that it isn’t implemented anywhere here (in the mainland) and can be ridiculed easily, and that’s the point.
I’d like to expand my point for anyone who is interested in further reading, to address the “Capitalism vs UBI” point that the person I responded to was making:
You can’t just replace capitalism. It’s not a good system, we can all agree on that. But short of violent revolution, no system is changed except from within the system.
You can’t just say “well the alternative to UBI is just letting people suffer under capitalism” because there is no alternative to capitalism right now. Not unless we as a group of leftists work the overton window back far enough left for the masses to seriously consider abandoning capitalism in favor of something that benefits everyone.
The problem is, capitalists have known about that possibility for about 50 years and have had that much of a head start undermining any effort to do so.
It can be done, but it has to be done in smaller steps like legalizing weed, cementing abortion rights, raising the minimum wage, etc. until the masses are ready to hear that UBI might actually be a good thing.
Statements like “If UBI isn’t implemented then people will just suffer under capitalism” are virtue signaling at best and the people who say those kinds of things don’t have a clear understanding of how to actually affect change.
Louder for the people in the back.
I like the downvotes I’ve got. What I said was objective truth. Like it or not, change doesn’t happen here unless enough people are behind it to make it happen.
So those downvotes just… Don’t like it? It’s like the guy in the scroll of truth meme yelling myehh at the end
I can tell you just grabbed the first result of a Google search “why basic income works” because you linked an article with a pay wall that doesn’t actually allow you to read it, leading me to believe you didn’t read it either. So thanks.
However, just the title and first paragraph I was able to skim highlight the point I’m making: it doesn’t matter if a system works if not enough people are willing to adopt it. Which is what the concept of the overton window is built on.
Lul, skill issues, unsurprising
I’m not going to unfuck your source because you’re too lazy to check it. The skill issue is yours, my friend
Despite the minimal effort I put in, I still managed a rebuttal. Where’s yours? Oh right, you aren’t interested in actually understanding the problem. You just Google a response without checking it and let other people affirm your flawed views.
🤡
ubi isn’t the poison pill, yang was that for ubi, and you swallowed it apparently. there has barely been any push for ubi, mostly just academic discussion, and it has had absolutely zero effect on amount of campaigning for min wage increase, so like, wut?
ubi is the way welfare should be because means testing kills and wastes money and everyone deserves that safety net. everyone. nevermind coming mass automation.
imho andrew yang’s whole purpose in politics was to be a dumbass awkward out of touch dickhead and spoil everything he promoted, mainly ubi. you fell for it.
Political capital is finite, and the wealthy people understand this. Right now we’re arguing over UBI instead of creating a common front to raise minimum wage. Exactly as intended. The person that made the comic promoted something that won’t happen instead of something that could happen, exactly as intended.
nevermind coming mass automation.
Yes, nevermind coming mass automation. You’re presupposing future problems can’t be solved in the future. Future problems stemming from future mass automation (as if that’s something that didn’t start with the industrial revolution) can be solved in the future. Low minimum wage is a problem we have right now and it’s not being solving now because too many people are fantasizing about a future that may not even happen in our lifetimes.
Right now we gotta fix our energy infrastructure to solve global warming (which is a real future problem we need to work on right now) and that’s going to take a lot of labour to accomplish. Our survival depends on us having a productive and healthy workforce to solve very real problems.
I like Star Trek too but we aren’t going to get to that world if we can’t solve present day problems.
deleted by creator
This is whataboutism of the most laborious kind.
I sure hope that this was written by ChatGPT. Because if a living breathing human both believes this and took the time to write it out the system has failed
No, the system has succeeded.
…Wow
The one that offends me is the belief in “infinite upside.” Like somehow we’d lose out on some great works of social progress if we made peoole’s bank accounts peg once they hit a certain number of zeroes.
![[Alzwards Corner] Never could happen here](https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/f554a50e-b397-4ea1-9cab-40fd25d3dcb5.png){kind=link}