• JustUseMint@lemmy.world
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    11 months ago

    Scary how many people in here are anti free speech. Yes, they’re stupid, cancerous, lot of white supremacists, and all the scum and villany etc , but like, the point of free speech is that you’re allowed to say that shit.

    Make a threat? Absolutely, track IPs and investgate logs, lawful actions against unlawful acts. But to flat out ban every one you disagree with? Disgusting. And you should be ashamed of it.

    • LoudWaterHombre@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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      11 months ago

      Any kind of freedom ends were you are violating the freedom of someone else. Spitting hatred against women and minorities has nothing to do with freedom of speech.

      • ArmokGoB@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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        11 months ago

        Saying hateful, dumbass shit doesn’t violate anyone’s freedom. Denying them their right to congregate, get equal service in business, have bodily autonomy, etc. does. However, speech alone is not enough to equate to action, in most cases.

        • geissi@feddit.de
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          11 months ago

          Saying hateful, dumbass shit doesn’t violate anyone’s freedom

          That depends entirely on your definition of freedom.

          If someone were to punch me, it would violate my freedom from being punched/ bodily harm.
          This is illegal in the US.

          If someone were to insult me, it would violate my freedom from being insulted (maybe psychological harm).
          This is legal in the US but illegal elsewhere.

          speech alone is not enough to equate to action

          Speech is not something that happens to you, it’s something you actively do. It is always an action.

      • licherally@lemmy.world
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        11 months ago

        As much as I dislike people spitting hatred at women, LGBTQIA+ folks, and POCs, this is still freedom of speech. You don’t have to enjoy it, you don’t have to listen to it, and you’re certainly free to remove these people from your personally owned spaces. But it doesn’t change the fact that people should be allowed to say whatever the fuck they want, otherwise we literally are punishing people for thought crimes and edgy jokes.

        People should be judged for their actions, not their words. Words don’t actually mean anything without action behind them.

        I’m a gay man, and I’ve definitely given out the occasional f slur pass. Why? Because I honestly think it’s funny as fuck when my best friend of 20 years calls me that. He doesn’t hate me, he knows and loves my partner like a sibling, and he is my brother. It would be so fucked if he got in some kind of actual trouble for that…

        • Nahdahar@lemmy.world
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          11 months ago

          The dangerous thing with speech is the ability to radicalize people. I mostly agree with your comment but it’s a more complex topic than “until you don’t do something bad you’re fine”.

          • licherally@lemmy.world
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            11 months ago

            So you get a bunch of radicalized people that say shit but don’t do anything about it?

            In order for that group of radicalized people to be dangerous, they would have to do something right? Maybe that means March around in Nazi regalia, maybe that means some sort of assault or altercation. But it’s at that point that those people should be charged, not when they are online saying dumb shit.

        • mugthol@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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          11 months ago

          So if someone says “let’s kill all women, gays and jews” that’s totally fine for you?

          • licherally@lemmy.world
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            11 months ago

            If they’re just saying that, I certainly don’t want to be around them but I don’t think they should go to prison. If they act upon that, that’s entirely different and should be treated as a hate crime.

            Also, you just said it. Does context matter to you? What about intention?

          • smeg@feddit.uk
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            11 months ago

            I think their point is that you don’t throw them in prison just for saying it. If they actually do it or influence others to do it then that’s very different. I always try to think how a law could be twisted or abused, and once you make simply saying something illegal that opens the door to a lot of authoritarianism.

            • mugthol@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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              11 months ago

              Something being illegal does not automatically mean prison. In most developed countries prison is a last resort

          • licherally@lemmy.world
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            11 months ago

            That’s fundamentally not the same thing, don’t be obtuse for the sake of debate points.

            Insults and general demeaning comments should not be punished in the court of law. Saying offensive things should not be punished in the court of law.

            As I said before, the action/intent is the part that should be punished. Providing private information about someone who you disagree with or want to incur harm upon is an action with malicious intent.

            As a leftist, I fail to understand why we always jump to tone policing and purity politics? We can identify the material conditions that cause radicalization and general bigotry and act upon these things, but we always just jump to punishing people for being radical bigots, which only further galvanizes those positions.

            We’re not making these spaces smaller, we’re making them more volatile by doing this. They see these conversations and think “this is why we have to remove leftism, because they will punish us for crimes we have yet to do” and that’s precisely what this argument is.

              • licherally@lemmy.world
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                11 months ago

                Well I’m holding you in contempt in court for making a joke that I didn’t agree with. I hope you’re ready to pay a huge fine, because this is an open and shut case.

        • LoudWaterHombre@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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          11 months ago

          Why does your freedom of speech cover insulting me? It doesn’t make any sense? Instead of me having to remove myself from public spaces to not get insulted, the people insulting in public spaces should be removed???

          • LwL@lemmy.world
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            11 months ago

            Because what is insulting enough to warrant removal is extremely subjective. Pretty much everyone agrees there’s a line somewhere, where people draw that line is very different. I would never even consider trying to stop people from making bad edgy jokes, but I will tell them the joke isn’t funny and they just seem like a bigot if that’s what I think.

            I also wouldn’t consider 4chan a public place. Someone holding up a sign in a train station that says “gays are an abomination” I would agree should be removed as they are actively making a public space hostile to someone. But then I’d also put different standards on a non-spontaneous demonstration, as those have to be cleared beforehand and won’t happen on a super frequent basis, and there needs to be some way to voice any opinion that doesn’t outright call for violence.

            • LoudWaterHombre@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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              11 months ago

              Well you guys do realise though, that outside the US, in a damn big ass amount of countries, insulting people is illegal and not considered freedom of speech?

              • LwL@lemmy.world
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                11 months ago

                I am not in the US lol. Insulting people is in fact illegal here, that doesn’t mean i necessarily agree with that in a general capacity. There was a famous case of a politician here a few years ago that sued and had someones house raided over them insulting them on twitter (with a very harmless insult too), which is absolutely ridiculous.

    • TrickDacy@lemmy.world
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      11 months ago

      the point of free speech is that you’re allowed to say that shit.

      No, it isn’t

      • pop@lemmy.ml
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        11 months ago

        Hey guys, he said the secret phrase, All other opinions are invalidated. everyone please clap. 👏👏👏

        • Noel_Skum@sh.itjust.works
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          11 months ago

          Because otherwise you run the risk of being bigoted about bigots. Ironic. Keep them in the open, learn what they think, be prepared to shut them down at every available opportunity - show them the error of their beliefs again and again and again. History suggests that banning things doesn’t make the problem go away. It just drives it underground, out of sight, where they can mutate and coalesce without anybody from the outside knowing or realising… then we all be fucked.

    • pop@lemmy.ml
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      11 months ago

      Freedom of speech works out when everyone’s speech is equal. But in the real world, it isn’t. if it were, the minority wouldn’t have to fight for their rights and the laws would apply the same to the majority.

      “free speech” is clickbait for the racists, created by racists to drown out the opposing voices of minority while calling it equality.

      Your “freedom of speech” was added in the constitution on December 15, 1791. It took almost 200 years for the cilvil rights movement in 1950s for the black people to have equal rights.

      Don’t flaunt it like it has any shred of importance beyond what the majority of the US population uses it for. And it’s to be racist bigots.

      Keep concern trolling though

      • tjsauce@lemmy.world
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        11 months ago

        Didn’t freedom of speech protect the civil rights movement more than if it weren’t in the constitution? Just because bad people make use of this right, doesn’t make it inherently bad. It’s not concern trolling because we think you’re overcorrecting, and any attempt to censor 4chan will lead to either “angering the wasps” or censorship of benign ideas.

        Just know that I am arguing in good faith because I know that the people who decide what to censor will overcorrect, and I think that causes more harm than good.

      • JustUseMint@lemmy.world
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        11 months ago

        Only thing I feel like responding to:. This might be hard for you to understand but people can have differing opinions than you and not be trolling. It’s not healthy to have that belief.