With support ending for Windows 10, the most popular desktop operating system in the world currently, possibly 240 million pcs may be sent to the landfill. This is mostly due to Windows 11’s exorbitant requirements. This will most likely result in many pcs being immediately outdated, and prone to viruses. GNU/Linux may be these computers’ only secure hope, what do you think?
A ton of people can barely open a PDF and this sub thinks those people can change to a completely different operating system.
My 80 year old dad has been using a XUbuntu for years and never even noticed. The only reason he knows he’s using Linux at all is because he saw a news story about Windows tracking and asked about it. He was quite happy not to be affected.
Honestly Linux mint can be more user friendly. The problem is that no one else knows how to help people using it
Theoretically, when it’s up and running. How do you intend to get to that state, though? One has to install it first. And I think that alone is a massive filter.
inb4 someone says:
I did it, and I found it extremely straightforward.
I’m sure you did, Mr. “I hate how much Reddit is pandering to the braindead to the point that I joined an experimental social media platform”, I’m sure you did. Clearly, you are a qualitative sample of people who use Windows computers.
Sarcasm aside, look at how railroaded and coddling the Windows 10 installer is. I am certain a large plurality of Windows users’ initiative would completely evaporate having to navigate that. And now we want to throw a Linux installation at them?
Factor on top how the vast majority of computer users in all forms that computers take simply take for granted that the OS the computer comes with is a part of the computer. Normal people don’t upgrade OSes unless the OS itself railroads them into it (which Win10 already does aggressively whenable), or they buy a new PC that happens to come with it pre-installed. The knowledge required to negotiate an OS wipe and reinstall is not something most people possess, and I expect presenting that knowledge to them on a silver platter is something they’d hastily recoil from.
We’re in a catch-22 here. Even if all the pieces for the fabled Linux Desktop are arguably here, actually getting it into the hands of those who would benefit from it most remains prohibitive.
This is also ignoring the elephant in the room: A massive swath of these Windows PCs (Maybe even most of them? I have no backing figures, just a hunch.) are not personal computers, but office PCs that belong to a company fleet. There’s a reason Windows utterly dominates the office–Windows rules the IT sphere, at least where personal devices given to employees are concerned. Active Directory? Group Policy? Come on, guys. None of the companies who depend on these management tools are pivoting to Linux anytime soon, and you know it. And if their cheap, bulk order desk PCs don’t support Windows 11, they are absolutely getting landfilled.
The only effective mitigation I could think of would be to start a charity that takes obselesced office PCs, refurbishes them to Linux, and provides them at low or no cost to those who need a low cost or free PC. It would get Linux into more hands, but it would also strengthen a stigma that Linux is nothing more than the poor man’s OS. The Dr Thunder to Window’s Mountain Dew.
Edit: My bad. I did the thing where I read like the first two sentences and didn’t read the rest. Reading the rest of the reply basically acknowledged my refute.
The majority of this waste is coming from businesses that now need to upgrade. That’s why there are IT departments to figure it out for the tech illiterate. As long as they can open their email client, a text editor and excel, you’ve overcome 90% of what a business needs for their computers.
You are right, Grandma Jones with her 800x600 resolution screen, 10 downloaded tool bars and Microsoft Edge ain’t going to get it, but Grandma Jones is still using XP, a CRT and a Gateway Computer she bought back in 2006
Nah, 'twas a good rant nonetheless ;)
Honestly people who can’t open a PDF and refuse to learn shouldn’t use a computer in the first place.
But, assuming most people aren’t complete morons and can actually do stuff if they decide to sit down, Google how to do it and actually do it instead of declaring “I am stupid” and not even try, then even just telling or better yet showing people there’s an alternative to throwing your perfectly functioning laptop and buying an expensive new one will go a long way to get new users and save some e-waste.
Of course, installing an OS isn’t easy, for linux specifically the hard part is entering the BIOS to disable secure boot and then go into the boot menu to select the USB. After that it’s a lot easier. Of course they can also be directed towards Linux computers, like system76’s, or Tuxedo’s or Laptops with Linux’s if necessary.
Naturally to get Linux to dominate the desktop we need the EU to say “know what fuck you, your PC can’t come with a preinstalled paid OS” paired with people learning Linux is an option when buying the PC and seeing that it is free vs what like 135€?
But, assuming most people aren’t complete morons and can actually do stuff if they decide to sit down, Google how to do it and actually do it instead of declaring “I am stupid” and not even try
Extremely charitable assumption, I’d say.
I do think most people do in fact possess the ability to follow instructions and succeed at installing Linux from USB. But it all falls apart at the key word “decide”. Very few people choose to devote the low, but nonzero, effort required to pull it off.
for linux specifically the hard part is entering the BIOS to disable secure boot and then go into the boot menu to select the USB
I would say, for the demographic I’m thinking of, the hardest part is actually getting the installation media in the first place. Not because it’s challenging to do, but just getting over the mental barrier of this (to them) extremely unorthodox method of installing software.
Like, first you have to find the thing and download it. Which, fine, that’s typical so far But the thing you download isn’t some .exe you run. No, you need to put it on a flash drive. So you need one of those lying around, either empty or with nothing important on it. But you don’t just copy the installl file onto it the ““normal”” way, nooo… you also have to separately download some strange utility that burns it onto the flash drive in some special way or else it won’t work. Only then do you have to tickle the BIOS.
I understand if you or anyone else reading rolls their eyes at that description because these steps are so boneheadedly simple. And I agree, they are. But it’s not so much a question of whether it’s hard to do, it’s a question of whether it feels safe and natural to do. Which, to you and me, it is. But to the kind of person who, as you say, shouldn’t even be using a computer in the first place (but they must anyhow, because trying to live in our modern information age society without one closes too many doors), it’s an uncomfortable, dark ritual.
Get them to flash it with Ventoy, then they can copy and paste the ISO. Bit easier for dummies and let’s them put more .iso files in it without the “but why can’t I do more than one”.
The BIOS is a lot scarier to noobs. You have to press a button very fast, go into a scary menu that looks different than anything else and full of weird options, to disable something that has secure in its name, and then something about boots to turn on the PC from the USB? But my computer has no boots!
Now this was made easier by windows which can be told to reboot directly on the BIOS or media drive, but it is still more daunting to newbies than to use a program to flash a USB in my experience.
Of course, that’s why we need to be there for tech illiterate people to teach them how to read, without assuming they’re mentally challenged because they’re not stupid they just lack the willingness to try something that looks scary the first time you do it (like most things in life). If I got my mother, who can barely figure out how to open the file manager on windows, to install Linux Mint and some software in it over a phone call, it’s possible with anyone.
I didn’t disable secure boot when I installed linux, oh no!
Lucky. I had to do it in a few laptops or it wouldn’t even have allowed me to boot from USB
Odd, I never had that issue. I wasn’t aware it could happen.
I see how that could be confusing for novice users.
“
Honestly people who can’t open a PDF and refuse to learn shouldn’t use a computer in the first place
.”
By this logic people that don’t know how to drive vehicles shouldn’t be using transportation in the first place. Right…right?!
It’s an and statement you breedable little shit you can’t just ignore one of the conditions in the statement.
If someone can’t drive a vehicle and doesn’t want to learn he will not, in fact, be allowed to drive.
Many people will simply abandon their desktops and laptops, and strictly use their smartphone.
I’m reading and agreeing, really vibing with what you’re saying. Then you have to go and fumble it on the last line. Come on, man! Every soda afficianado knows Dr Thunder is the poor man’s Dr Pepper
I thought it was intentional like “this is not only cheaper, it’s notably different”
Sorry. Got my wires crossed with Mountain Lightning.
They even got it right with the lack of a period, but still fucked it up so bad 😔
I recently installed elementary os on a Dell laptop and Fedora on an older super shitty Dell laptop. Honestly I know it was a bit of luck but both installs could’ve hardly gone smoother. The install itself? Easier than windows and absolutely faster. Out of the two computers, assuming patience with learning a new thing, there was barely friction and this could’ve been done by most people with a little gumption.
I told the laptop owners that the touch screen wouldn’t work on the newer one. Just assumed that was a weird hardware software combination that would be very difficult if not impossible to get working. They were ok with that because essentially both computers were slow trash and we were trying to salvage them. Lo and behold though-- the touchscreen worked out the box with literally no effort. It didn’t behave how the owners wanted (like it did on windows), but 15 minutes of googling and a reboot and the touch screen was working exactly as it did on windows. Obviously Linux isn’t for everyone but when 1) it’s gotten this good and 2) the alternative is trashing a computer, it really saddens me to see a long diatribe shitting all over the possibility of salvaging a lot of these computers rather than throwing them away.
this could’ve been done by most people with a little gumption.
My point was not that installing Linux is intrinsically difficult, it’s that people who have “a little gumption” to figure it out are a far rarer breed than you seem to believe.
Also, I wasn’t intending to “shit all over the possibility” of salvaging old PCs. I support that! I think Linux (Mint, specifically) would be a perfect drop-in for most light use Windows users, as it is a stable and friendly solution to common needs. I was just raising the part most people overlook: actually getting it running. Not just the technical challenges, but the mental ones, too. The people who stand to gain the most from a free and stable OS are paradoxically the same people who are the least equipped to find and set it up.
We have a long road ahead of us to normalize the procedures of obtaining and installing a new OS in the public eye. Linux can be as user friendly as you like, but it’s all for nothing to the average Joe if he doesn’t understand how to get it. Or why he should even bother getting it, for that matter.
I’m not sure if you’ve trying using the windows installer but it is terrible. Linux mint is much easier to install provided that you can create a USB.
Its still above most peoples ability
I guess by “Windows installer” I actually meant the setup wizard that runs the first time you boot an OEM machine from the factory. The thing 99% of Windows users actually see. Not sure if that’s significantly different.
And if you want to claim even that is terrible, I really have to question by what metric you’re measuring. Is it because it doesn’t give you the options you want, like creating an offline user account, or because it’s full of bloat screens for products like OneDrive? Sure, I guess. But I’d say having these criticisms are very specifically the kind of things that make you an outlier compared to the average person I’m talking about. These are things normal people don’t bat an eye at. Giving them more control just intimidates them.
And yeah, I’m sure you agree, “provided [they] can create a USB” is a huge ask for a lot of people. Child’s play for us, but weird and scary black magic to most. Guides can and do make it crystal clear what to do, but as long as it feels spooky to download and run the magic programs, no one will feel comfortable doing it.
My metric is helping loved ones try to navigate it. (Spoiler: they can’t)
On Linux mint the setup is very smooth. There are things you could complain about on linux but the initial setup isn’t one of them.
the setup process for the first run of a new windows machine is called the out of box experience. its truely awful in the way it railroads you but a setup process is a lot more approachable than an installer.
The way I see it is 240 million computers have two different courses. One is to just drop the hardware, the other is to update the software. What is granted is that, if you decide to update the software, you will have to research how to do it. You may end up just buying new hardware, or hiring someone to do the job, but there’s a chance to just go for it.
If people go for upgrading their OS for themselves, then they have to research how to do it, and when they do it, they will probably find out that some thing called Linux could fit their needs. If Linux enthusiasts don’t say shit, they will install Windows for sure, otherwise, maybe they will install Linux. I’m not saying this is the year of the Linux desktop and/or this is a huge opportunity to convert PCs to Linux.
It’s still different from what most people are used to. Thee would be a learning curve. And swapping an operating is no easy task for most, either.
Pretty much this. Linux users often forget that, when it comes to specifically operating systems, the vast, vast majority of people are used to what they know, and literally instinctively reject change of any kind.
Most people do not even know what an operating system /is/.
Any one who has ever worked in IT knows this, that the vast, vast majority of computer users are laughably technically incompetent, to the point that they usually get angry when you try to explain basic foundational concepts to them.
Then add on top of that decades of marketing that conditions most of the small minority of people who bother to attempt to learn anything about software and hardware into basically believing slogans, tag lines, and going gaga for tech that has some acronym or cute name, which they understand nothing about beyond the most surface level description.
Summing up, while it is possible to convince a person to switch to a new OS, it is maddeningly difficult at best nearly all the time. People basically demand a perfect product, even though they cannot even come close to beginning to describe what its features would be, and will instinctively assume they know more than actual tech experts all the time.
That being said, if you could run a business of basically buying or acquiring used laptops for cheap, refurbishing them with a stable linux OS, and then reselling them, you might be able to have a successful business, but the problem is that flashing OSs all day long is extremely, mind destroyingly boring and unfulfilling.
If you are so bad at using a computer you can’t open a PDF, then you won’t notice the difference between windows and linux
What a dreamer
But a ton of people can open a PDF and will be able to select an USB stick from menu and click next, next, next… It’s not completely different, you still use a mouse, a keyboard, you click on things, you get some feedback from it… When a new kind of mobile app arrive, I can see someone using no more than 5 apps in life having problems, but this doesn’t mean only them exists, we do not talk about switching everyone here. People change houses, how are they figuring out where is the toilet if doors have different color and are in different positions?
Also a reason why any software like Microsoft Windows or Office should be banned from public education, especially primary schools.
The average consumer isn’t going to toss out a good computer they bought if it can’t run Windows 11. They’re certainly not installing Linux. They’ll keep using Windows 10 for as long as they can. I’ve seen way too much of Windows XP still running on people’s computers, if it can still browse the web, access emails and look at Facebook they’re not spending money on a new one
Good point XP held on forever
The stenographer for our local zoning & planning board still uses a XP netbook. Couldn’t believe my eyes when I first saw it
Could be some software that is no longer supported.
Good point. What about hardware drivers? Do the OEMs use OS support deprecation, as an excuse to bail on shit? Or are driver updates irrelevant to a dead OS bc it’s in stasis?
My though was their preferred stenography keyboard was made by a company that is now defunct, ergo no updates. Possibly could be overcome with techy means, but I’m guessing the stenographer doesn’t have those.
I mean stopping Windows updates is really more a win than a loss half the time. They’ve forcefully installed so much of the shitware in Windows 10 updates that makes Windows 11 awful. It took me an hour to strip all the bullshit off of my partner’s Windows 10 that he left to auto-update.
Auto update has been a pain in the arse. Was doing a presentation for a group assignment with a Windows user and just before we were about to go up the thing just decided on a whim to install an update. Funnily enough he said he wanted to try Linux after that
It’s actually astonishing to me how much better Linux deals with updates compared to macOS and Windows. “Oh, updates are installed, and you just need to restart whatever I updated if it’s currently running.”
Sometimes it does have its moments though, like when it updates some core package and changes its config in such a way that the next boot doesn’t go into a GUI, but I think it’s also fair to point out Windows has had those too. And macOS High Sierra with the performance and security issues it initially had on release won’t go unmentioned by me either.
Half of India tech industry still runs on windows 7.
Same here
I’ll keep using the computer I bought for as long as possible even if support for windows 10 ends
Agreed. There usually needs to be a big demand for a shift. Kind of like with Android development. Things tend to slow down once they run out of good ideas.
For Microsoft I think the next big move could be for a whole solar system calendar, e.g. symmetry 454, then synchronise that with a local family/group calendars, social events integration etc, throw in something like bing coin, then throwing it all into a big new multi compatible platform available to all of XP, 7, 10 and 11, add some games shit in there to compete with steam deck, then throw in some hardware CPU cooling accessories to prop up the trash software until they spend the next ten years updating like Lenovo bridge, it so that they can let optimizing their software enough to not fuck things up.
As for how the hell they plan on making money from it all, I suspect that the accessories will eventually lead to subscription costs for certain OEM support. This will encourage OEM manufacturers to engage directly with consumers and retailers to invest in the recycling process so that they can jack up prices across the board.
Use this money to add their shit into some NASA computers for extra hype. No big long term plan, just getting their logo and their foot in the door with the next big direction for computing lol
People aren’t going to throw the PCs out. They are going to continue using Windows 10 for years without security updates.
I still saw XP installs a decade after support had ended.
“a decade after support had ended” for Windows XP is not until April next year.
You’re ignoring the fact that they ended XP support for months and then brought it back for literal years after so much outcry
What if, sometime after Win 10 loses support a virus takes advantage of the lack of patches and propagates across all the machines with a simple message “This operating system is no longer supported, please click here to upgrade.” The button then runs a script to download and install a user friendly Linux distro. The world is then saved.
Chaotic good
Make it install temple OS, so that it can save not only the planet but also our souls. Amen. 🙏🙏🙏🙏
My kind of hopes.
Microsoft: Arbitrarily increases the system requirements for Windows 11 even though it runs perfectly fine on older pcs just to get people to buy new computers
Also Microsoft: Why’s there so much waste??
I found it absolutely amazing they claim my pretty decent laptop from 2016 can’t run Windows 11. Laptops haven’t gotten that much better since then. Also, supposing it actually couldn’t, it’s a fucking operating system. It should be doing everything it can to stay out of the way. What kind of bloated monstrosity is Windows 11 that my laptop can’t run it?
It’s the trusted platform module which I know almost nothing about but I’m sure is fucking stupid. My monster of a desktop from 2018 also can’t run win11, and the only reason is my cpu is missing the tpm that it requires.
When has MS indicated they care about waste in the least?
This is a marketing page that any big company has a version of. I meant by action, not lip service
There is a link immediately over the headline in the url I shared. Read the report. I used to sell green asset disposition of electronics. It’s been an industry for a long time. It makes a difference. See what you want to see man. I can intro you to people in that business if you’d like to pick their brains. I don’t know who owns this at Microsoft but I can ask contacts there, if you’d like me to help get you an intro.
We all know that won’t happen because most users don’t give a shit about things like conserving hardware or the resources that went into making them, and will just use this as an excuse to splurge on the latest shiny device.
Nah I haven’t bought a new machine in years, sticking to the old school bro. But I get it, a lot of people who are gamers or streamers would definitely buy in and I get why too because so long as the internet speeds keep increasing, there will be more streamers for the next big game or influencer chit chat etc
Who the fuck throws out their computer when it’s still working???
A lot of businesses. I’ve stocked an entire network lab out of waste bins from buildings with tech companies in them. Laptops, monitors, network gear, cabling. I once scored a whole box of 100W USB-C chargers.
You could make a living reselling stuff online.
I’m sorry, 100W USB-C is throwaway stuff now? Wut?
Federal, state and local government , multinational companies and boomers.
Literally just talked to my mother-in-law who was talking about throwing out her laptop because Windows 10 is losing support and she can’t upgrade to Windows 11.
It would probably run linux perfectly.
But I would never put linux on it. I am not doing tech support for my MIL who just admitted to me that she “locked down her machine because she fixed the registry issues windows has and turned on ipv6 on her router” and alluded to changing other settings but she cant understand why her “wifi keeps dropping out” and thinks its because the neighbors installed a ring doorbell.
Except for that last part, sounds somewhat plausible…
Doorbell is wireless, from temu, and is missing FCC compliance sticker.
Just a hunch.
Don’t let her throw just send me😫
State governments usually are required to place all of their computers up for sale through surplus. (Hard drives usually removed and destroyed). I have been through that process at a State College and a University. They aren’t just thrown away. I imagine there is a similar process for federal computer.
True they give it to “recyclers” who try to sell what they can and throw the rest. I know this because I used to work for the “recyclers”
Yeah, when access to raspberry pi’s and such was none existant I knew a few people who would pick up old Optiplex computers and such to use as media servers and such. Old dells used to be very reliable. Throw whatever distro on there gui or not, and the shitty graphics cards wouldn’t matter much
All of whom have processes software and employees who are not prepared to swap to Linux
Linux users
Wat
If these were all stacked laptops, stacked on top of each other, they would form a stack 600 km above the Moon.
Ummm… what??
Assuming 3 cm thick laptop x 240 mil = 7,200 km. Moon is on average 380,000 km away. Even 30 cm thick laptops (lol) would only get you to 72,000 km.
They’re stacking on the longest dimension after opening up the laptop.
XD that would still only get you half way to the moon!
They said “600 km above the Moon”, so assuming that the laptops are 2.5mm thick, and stacked on the surface of the moon…
Yeah, well, a piece of paper folded in half 50 times would reach two thirds of the way to the Sun, so take that!!
Although I’m not surprised, it is interesting that the same big tech companies like Apple and Microsoft taking stances on being “environmentally conscious” while also ignoring forced obsoletion of old hardware. Your average office environment just needs basic email, document/excel editing software and a browser. Now to continue to do these base functions, they have to buy new PCs to do the same exact thing. And it’s not even faster anymore due to the bloat.
If tech wants to preach about the environment, they best start figuring out ways to keep computers out of the landfills.
Or make repurposing a thing.
Although I’m not surprised, it is interesting that the same big tech companies like Apple and Microsoft taking stances on being “environmentally conscious” while also ignoring forced obsoletion of old hardware.
That’s purely greenwashing marketing hype, with Apple being the worst offender. Now Microsoft seems to be following in their footsteps, although they’re still better in this regard than Apple.
But buying new things is good for the economy!
(/s in case it’s needed)Was it EVER faster though? My experience with Windows has always been that they release new versions based on upcoming hardware specs and unless you spend top-dollar on the very latest hardware for their next release, you are going to see things moving slower on the new desktop. That’s one of things I’ve enjoyed about linux, you can pretty much always upgrade the OS on an older machine without concern of taking a hit on the performance, and sometimes you even get a boost.
It will be mostly Enterprise upgrading. The average consumer buys the cheapest laptop they can get. They won’t be upgrading. I think nowadays not many average consumers even use computers. They just do everything on a phone.
Windows 11 won’t work on my laptop. Installed Linux a few weeks ago. Works better now than it did with Windows 10.
Good for us. There will be a lot of cheap laptops on the market, which we can use for selfhosting and stuff.
>buy cheap laptop because "it broken no work ooha booga" >install Linux Mint on it >resell it at a higher price >profitI really want to know if someone with no experience on linux can use Vanilla OS without any trouble.
I wouldn’t. GNOME is too far from the Windows Experience™ for it to be comfortable for them.
Maybe. Personally tho I would put them on Mint or Pop, maybe Fedora Silverblue
Removed by mod
Exactly. Most people don’t care about linux, why is this so hard to understand?
That picture generated by Dall-E looks like it came straight out of Wall-E.
My desktop and laptop are both eligible to upgrade, but I keep declining and will likely switch to linux when win10 support ends.
Why wait? It’s a process, so I would start asap
I’ve thought about it, but right now everything works exactly the way I need it and the only complaint I have is the occasional pop-ups from MS trying to get me to upgrade to win11 or switch my browser. My main uses for my devices are games and I just started back to school, so MS Office is nice to have. So, it’s hard to justify putting in the effort to change things now, especially when I know how to use MS products very well, particularly modding games.
Yeah. I feel ya. I still have windows on dual boot for certain things and it’s been a struggle at times but I gotta say I dread the times I need to boot windows! So much slower and annoying
