- cross-posted to:
- news@beehaw.org
- cross-posted to:
- news@beehaw.org
As a Finn I say this is fine. Every military resource that is tied down and not raping and destroying Ukraine is net positive.
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As an American I’m waiting for Republicans to start randomly saying anti-Finnish opinions. My bet is in about a week.
“The Finns, they, uh… who are they again? Woke, communists, like always?”
My bet is on them being called “atheistic terrorists” or “satan worshippers”
They’re Japanese whaler
It will take a while, you can’t expect christ-- sorry Republicans to know the basic geography of a place that was one of the most discussed areas in terms of Cold War policy for decades.
Fox news sometime in a month will have some blonde or angry Irish background guy looking like a confused dog saying how the PM there went to a party.
Cornelius Hawthorne: You’ve got a wide brow. What are you, Scandinavian?
Britta: Yeah, Swedish!
Cornelius Hawthorne: spits Swedish dogs. Your blood is tainted by generations of race-mixing with Laplanders, you’re basically Finns.
Removed by mod
I feel like the modders had a woosh moment here perhaps.
Having to constantly communicate in abusive opposite-world ideas must be tiring. The notion that NATO is out to invade Russia or something is one of the most ridiculous things I’ve heard.
For real… like Mr. Putin sir, we don’t want Russia. In fact, I must insist that you keep it
I hope some other Russian usurps his dementia ridden ass, 24 years is enough.
I’ve heard arguments from sarcasmitron on YouTube that Putin actually believes his own lies. Putin is terrified that the CIA actually caused color revolutions in the 2000’s and 2010’s, and after the pro-constitution/anti-election-fraud protests in Russia in 2011, he’s been fighting against “the shadowy hand of the gay nazi west” ever since.
Seems like it would happen naturally after a while. He speaks basically exactly like US Republicans and I think a lot of them actually believe their insane BS.
Not surprising that he literally works Republicans like sock puppets
He tells them what to say where it concerns Russia, but they naturally have the same sort of lying, victim blaming, playing a victim and opposite-world tendencies.
Because they’re all rich, white, Christians. That group hates progress around the world and says the same things globally.
I find that less believable than the usual dictator playbook that uses foreign scapegoats to create a diversion from internal issues and justify authoritarianism.
You have to be worth something to be invaded.
Oil and gas though
Well true but we could always just get more from overthrowing some middle eastern government. Hey remember when Syria wasn’t hell on earth? Take that Syria, bet you will let John Kerry have his pipeline next time.
It’s simple. Us vs them. Not complicated like the 3D-chess he used to play in world politics.
It’s like when my kid wants me to talk like DC Bizarro. It’s mentally exhausting.
It’s interesting how this might become a self-fulfilling prophecy if Russia attacks Finland
That’s basically why Putin has been whining about this. He wants to be able to invade neighboring countries without having to deal with the US, EU and NATO.
>Be Putin
>Announce NATO expansion is no threat
>Pull most troops from the Finnish border, because holy fuck, Ukraine has turned the entire army you had at the start into sunflower fertalizer
>Have all the units you pulled from the Finnish border incur astronomical losses, because you want to present any win at the next election
>Declare Finland a threat again
>Move the broken units back up to the border
>ProfitIs Putin really that weak domestically to care about elections?
His greatest political opponent just “went missing” (from the prison he was being held in) and “nobody knows where he is now.” Russians have been watching their population get ground into meat by what he originally called “a military exercise” that’s been going on over six times the time estimate that he set, and he’s actively making it so nobody can leave Russia without smuggling themselves out.
He wouldn’t still hold office if he was playing fairly, so yes, he is that weak domestically. Get fucked, Vladolf Putler.
Don’t forget the oligarchs can no longer live the lives they did. Obviously they are complicit with the war but that doesn’t change the fact that there are those that would turn against him if the right opportunity presented itself
Have the days of it being illegal to call it anything but a special military operation in Russia ended?
Putin calls it war, not sure if others are allowed to do that
No.
I don’t think they even bother with elections. Russia is dictatorship not a democracy
They go through the motions, but yeah, it’s definitely all theater.
What military units?
The ones where Moscow political class sons do their military service. Where the only danger they face is getting buggered by their own Sargent’s.
Hah, like any wealthy Moscow Russian would go to military. They bribe their way out like the cowards they are and the peasants are the one getting killed.
NATO’s
No, they’re asking what units Russia will concentrate near Finland. In reference to Russia having lost more than half it’s deployed military.
The cardboard cut out division
They don’t even have the uniforms to spare to stuff with hay
Have fun with that. This isn’t WW2. The Finnish military is far from large, but they are a specialized group with with a lot of national pride, and Russia currently has a hesitant conscript force with no emotional tie to the cause.
Finland was first created some time during the Cold War between Russia and the West.
Japan-Soviet relations had always been shaky at best, but also incredibly secretive. Even as early as 1925 Japan and the Soviet Union had secret deals with each other regarding fishing rights between the two countries, with the Soviet Union giving up much of it’s fishing rights to Japan with seemingly no explanation as to why.
These secretive treaties and alliances continued right up until just before the fall of the Soviet Union, Gorbachev made trips to Japan months before the fall of the Soviet Union stating the entire time how the relations between them were improving, even when Soviet relations with the rest of the world were worsening.
In fact the entire past 100 years of Japanese-Russian relations bring up many unanswered questioned.
Why at the height of WW2, were the battles between these two countries minimal despite being on opposing sides?
Why did Japan sign a peace treaty with Russia in 1941, just months before their allies, Germany, went to war with Russia?
Why were relations between Japan and Russia always good throughout the Cold War, despite the major geopolitical differences between the countries, and close geographical positions that you think would cause tensions?
The answer is simple, they shared a common secret. A common asset that worked in both of their favours. And that asset was Finland.
It’s unclear when Finland was first thought up, some say it was during the Cold War, and others say it was as far back as the 1920’s, but the necessity of Finland is quite simple.
Japan can fish in the region of ocean between Sweden and Russia without worry for environmental repercussions, after all, nobody’s going to expect fishing regulations to be broken in a place where everyone thinks there’s a landmass will they? And in return Russia get a percentage of the fish to distribute amongst their populace.
It’s a simple case of fishing the Finnish Sea, transporting it across Russia, (that was the real reason for the construction of the Trans-Siberian railway by the way), and then shipping it from the Eastern Russian coast to Japan under the disguise of ‘Nokia’ products.
This is why Nokia is the largest ‘Finnish’ company, and it is also why Japan is the largest importer of Nokia products, despite the fact that very few people own Nokia phones in the country.
There are clearly some unanswered questions to this conspiracy that I’ll try and address below.
1- What about Finnish people? Are they all in on the conspiracy?
A. No. People from Finland genuinely believe they’re from Finland. In reality they are from small towns on either the Eastern part of Sweden, the Western part of Russia, or the Northern part of Estonia.
2- What about all of Finland’s other exports other than Nokia?
A. Finland’s three biggest, and three most well known areas of industry are Oil, Tech, and Software. The oil is gathered in offshore platforms where the rest of us believe the landmass of Finland is, (again the Japanese get to avoid rigging regulations in this respect), the Tech companies have already been explained above with the Nokia post, and Software companies can easily redirect their IP Address through the Finnish sea. As for other Finnish exports, well, claiming Santa comes from your country isn’t a viable way to get people to believe in it.
3- What about Helsinki? That is an enormous city on the world stage.
A. Helsinki is located in Eastern Sweden. It’s not like the people flying there would notice.
4- What about everywhere else in Finland? There’s a lot to it and it couldn’t all be made up.
A. 99% of Finland is forest. A lot of it doesn’t need to be accounted for when addressing Finnish geography.
5- Why do other countries go along with it?
A. At first it was a sign of goodwill between Western Countries and the Soviet Union. A bargaining chip that could be played. But Finland has since evolved to something much more. An idealistic placeholder for what countries should aspire to. No real country could so consistently place first in Education, Healthcare, Gender Equality, Literacy Rates, National Stability, The least corrupt government in the world, Freedom of the press. It’s a concept for countries and people to aspire to. But that’s where the problems about Finland’s existence is disputed. no country in the world can possibly be that good.
6- Why the name Finland?
A. The country was originally made for fishing. What do fish have? Fins. Thus Finland.
7- What about the Finnish language?
A. Look up the similarities between Japanese and Finnish. It may surprise you how similar they are. Which is weird considering the vast distances between them.
8- I’m Finnish and your attack on my people and culture is insulting.
A. I’m not insulting Finnish people or culture. I don’t even deny that there is Finnish culture. When you have a collective of a few million people identifying as Finnish then of course a culture will be built around it. I’m simply saying that that the landmass of Finland isn’t actually there. It doesn’t mean there can’t be a culture or identity of being Finnish however.
9- This is an enormous conspiracy to keep secret, how could nobody else of realized it?
A. Other people have realized it. But imagine the ridiculousness of the statement ‘I don’t believe Finland exists’. Even if we did have undeniable proof of something put in front of us we would still hold the opinion that most of our friends, family, and acquaintances hold to not disrupt social convention. It’s part of the human condition.
10- What about GPS and Satellite Images?
A. It’s manipulated and forged. In the parts of Estonia, Sweden, and Russia that are allocated as ‘Finnish zones’ the GPS locations are changed to match that of Finland. Satellite images are forged. This is how that part of the world really looks.
This is the dumbest shit I’ve read this week, yet i got a good kick out of it regardless
You are a mother fucking genius. I love this, I laughed out loud
Don’t tell anyone but It’s an old-ish meme/conspiracy theory. I stole it from Reddit with no regrets.
Lmfaooooo fuckin wild
I could be wrong, but I think I also heard that Finland has (one of?) the largest artillery forces and really tough land to traverse on the border of Russia
Russia is not invading Finland, it would be suicide.
Finland is NATO. He’ll NEVER invade Finland. Have fun dividing up your oh so great, properly trained and well equipped army haha! Not like he’ll need the troops in Ukraine, that war is going as smooth AF.
I feel like he’s doing this just to threaten the troops on the front line with somewhere colder
Loads of forest up north. I’d prefer a camp fire over gunfire. Just make sure to bring your own axe.
Finns camp in such conditions voluntarily. Russians probably do too, lol. In fact, many Russians in that particular area of Russia are a lot more like Finns than they are like Russians. In fact, they are being repressed, and their language and culture is being systematically erased. If we are playing by Russian rules, this means Finland just has to step in, to uphold the human rights of the Finnic peoples living in this area.
I get your point. However, within a military it’s not like you’re stationed where you are originally from. So, most military left right now are the minorities from the east, or at least, they are drafted and sent to the front an mass. Except maybe for the officers not going to the front. But then again, they aren’t stationed where they are from, but where the regime requires them to be. I bet the minorities living in Russia close to Finland won’t feel much support for the regime, unless they too are too much brainwashed by the propaganda. But in general, the minorities often prefer to separate from Russia completely.
Karelia is the region of Russia close to Finland. And these people are technically Karelians (and I’m ethnically part Karelian as my father is Karelian). Karelian historically forcefully were assimilated either into what is Finland or Russian Federation today. Karelian culture is near extinct.
I’ve been making the same argument about the Han population of the Vladivostok Oblast for a while now. Xi actually has a lot to gain there, and no one outside of Russia would bat an eye.
etuomaala
Wow, I can’t believe you’re making me root for a Chinese invasion of Vladivostok. You know what though? At this point, fuck it. Go right ahead, Xi.
We all better pray you’re right. If he does end up trying to invade Finland, it’ll be a global f*ckup
Can you expand?
Russia clashing with multiple nuclear powers. What could go wrong?
They’ve been held at bay for over a year by a smaller army with at best 20+ year old “B stock” conventional munitions often Jerry rigged to give half the capabilities they have when used as intended. Russia is a paper tiger who would get the Iraq revolutionary guards treatment inside 3 weeks if they start shit against the finns. And nobody outside Putin himself is suicidal enough to start throwing nukes.
You’re assuming Russia is going to be a rational actor, and that there are enough checks and balances to keep Putin from using nukes.
What is this, non credible defense? If you believe that, then nothing matters and all options are on the table including preemptive action, because you either assume that MAD is enough to stave off that stupidity or you dont. But…this is all bullshit propaganda and saber rattling so who really cares.
The claim is that it would be a global fuck up, maybe implying that it wouldn’t be limited to Russia/nato. Not that this wouldn’t be messy in and of itself, if Russia were to invade, I suspect they would be left out on their own by everyone else. They’re already struggling with Ukraine. I doubt anyone is going to want to step up and help them against NATO. They would probably lose a lot of the external but indirect support they are getting right now because countries would be hesitant to support a country against the us.
If it’s just “war is bad” then yeah, kind of a duh statement.
Hopefully everybody else would be sensible and nobody would take Russia’s side. Hopefully Russia wouldn’t randomly nuke other countries in their death throes.
But even if both of those things turn out fine the economic fallout (and other kinds of fallout if it goes nuclear) will be a global problem.
The idea is to set the strategic position such that your opponent knows that any war would be a failure, and therefore they never try it at all. Finland joining NATO is pretty much that.
This is a dangerous assumption when it comes to nukes, though. Not because it doesn’t work on its own, but because small mistakes have disastrous consequences for the entire planet. Works better for conventional warfare.
According to the Russian president, Finland was “dragged” into Nato.
And who did the dragging Vlady?
Exactly. Most didn’t want to join before Putin decided to invade Ukraine.
Putin managed to do what decades and decades of pro-NATO propaganda couldn’t. It’s almost impressive.
My perspective on war is so corrupted, at this point.
At one hand I want peace in Europe but on the other Hand I know Russia won’t stop until they are beaten so getting NATO involved might end this conflict faster.
I’ve wanted to fight Russia since they annexed Crimea. I knew it wouldn’t end there, and I was proven right. If they manage to obtain the natural resources of Ukraine then it will just keep escalating. The thing is, though, Russia has lost so many troops that they could easily be swept, right now. Now has never been a better time for either the EU or NATO to force Russia into demilitarization and reparations, as well as putting more economic pressure on the Chinese Dictatorship.
One thing I don’t want, though, is a direct conflict with China. Those fuckers need to try fixing their own shit, first. Idk if that makes me strong against the weak and weak against the strong, but there is simply too much to lose for all sides in that sort of conflict, unlike the very weakened and destabilized Russia.
I just feel hopeless tbh. It feels like diplomacy failed or was the wrong tool to begin with. You can’t argue with someone when their point is, “I want your land and you dead.” Every Compromise seems to be a loss at this situation. War is never good. But is not going to War even worse? I just don’t know anymore.
I’m in an even worse mental state over this, I see war with the violators as a clear logical conclusion with great benefit for future generations, but my state is going to sit on their asses and do nothing.
I appreciate a careful consideration of going to War but now it seems to set a dangerous precedent. And no one really know what will happen if Russia attacks, let’s say Poland or one of the Baltic states. Is NATO really ready for nuclear War? Or will they just shy away because it’s too risky? Maybe I’m just pessimistic about the whole thing but how could you be not?
NATO will retaliate with nuclear weapons if it detects that nuclear weapons have been launched by the enemy. So the response would be conventional.
Mutually Assured Destruction has been around for so long that nobody can possibly win in Nuclear War. In fact, Ukraine is a nation with Nuclear capacity, since they obtained 1,700+ Soviet Era nuclear weapons upon their independence in 1991. If Russia was going to pull the Nuclear War card they would have done so a long ass time ago.
If Russia Attacks a much stronger nation than Ukraine like Finland, then we know exactly what will happen. The will be absolutely decimated in land and population to say the least. Modern Russia was always a paper tiger but it has become even weaker with its failed invasion.
I’ve wanted to fight Russia since they annexed Crimea.
I’m sure you’ll be the first to volunteer for the front lines then.
Goddamn right I would. Finally a cause worth fighting for, many Americans would view it as a dream come true.
Exactly. I hate when people lead off with that. It assumes their personal involvement in the war does anything other than make themselves feel less hopeless.
I understand their point from a geopolitical strategy perspective, but you always have to step back and ask yourself if you’d be willing to personally sign up. I would love to see Russia beaten and Putin ousted too, but I’m not willing to physically go do that, so I can’t exactly expect others to.
Not to mention, I’m old enough to know that it would never go as planned. We’d end up in forever war that kills thousands and thousands of innocent people and puts warlords in charge instead of a clean coup and instant transition to peaceful democracy.
Exactly for real, mate, I’d be digging those trenches. Didn’t expect that, did you? Thought you had the ultimate “Gotcha!” but no. I’m probably one of the few people in this comment section even fit to serve. Parrot more talking points, why not?
Oof.
Let us know when you join the army. We’ll be sure to applaud and throw a party for you.
Why would I join up to fight for oil? I just explained that the source of my frustration is the fight that I want to fight is not a priority of my nation.
Idk you seem pretty vocal about joining.
Never going to happen. Russia has nukes, remember?
So does Ukraine, so why hasn’t Russia tried anything with them? Oh because there is no winning a Nuclear War, idiot.
Russia isn’t threatened behind their own borders by Ukraine. If a NATO army were to invade Russia however, and Putin has his back against the wall, then I’m not sure he wouldn’t order that button to be pressed.
I suppose he could threaten foreign nations who breach the borders, but it’s not accurate to say they aren’t currently threatened behind their own borders. Russia recently lost a major railway connecting to china to the war, and a few months ago there was a military coup that had Putin hiding in a bunker.
Fair point, but it’s still not quite the same as foreign soldiers on russian soil.
how many of them are correctly mantained and in working conditions?
1% would be enough
Maybe. The issue is we don’t know. Are our missile defense systems able to take down that 1%? How reliably? What if that’s 5% instead?
It’s all a game of probability, and all it takes is 1 missile to slip through. The only 0% chance is if no nukes are fired in the first place.
It’s really disappointing, isn’t it? Putin has been given every opportunity to stop the invasion or not even start it in the first place, and in ways that would help him save face. He’s rejected all of that and insists on only violence. The only response to that is returning the violence. Defending Ukraine is the most unquestionably morally correct military action I’ve seen in my life.
It also brings up an interesting observation – to have a peaceful society, you have to be willing to violently defend it. If another party insists you give into their demands or they’ll get violent, you have to eventually oppose them. Otherwise, if you constantly submit to them in the name of peace, they’ll eventually take away your peace. Just like a tolerant society must reject intolerant views, a peaceful society must be willing to defend themselves in war.
As long as we have the freedom to live in peace, we ought to.
But the freedom doesn’t come free of charge.
We should carve out the freedom to live in peace when we’re unable to.
If it weren’t for the existence of Russia’s massive fleet of nuclear weapons (which probably don’t actually work but it’s a hell of a risk) i’m sure NATO would have already got involved.
The only reasonable way I can see this war ending is if the internal politics of Russia decide Putin is now too much of a problem and deal with him themselves. Then whoever takes charge backs out of Ukraine because it’s not a winnable conflict.
I can’t see how anyone external can bring about an end to the conflict without risking massive escalation.
Getting NATO directly involved will not end but will rather escalate the conflict.
You can’t win a war, let alone against a nuclear state. This wouldn’t end well.
Is there any alternative? Ukraine can’t fight forever, and Russia won’t stop.
Poland, Finland, Germany and others are also no nuclear States. Will the threat of nuclear retaliation and counter-attack from their allies really stop Russia, or will they just wait a couple of years and then try this shit again with other states? Or do everyone needs to gearup again? I have no Idea anymore.
There is about 0 real solutions here, mostly just keeping war of attrition, which slowly drains Russian economy without reasonably allowing it to escalate. It is super bloody though, and it is not an option to choose willingly for either side.
The only thing dumber than NATO doing direct strikes on Russia is Russia doing direct strikes on NATO. This is why Ukraine not joining NATO is such a big talking point in negotiations. If Ukraine goes NATO, Russia won’t be able to exert any military control over it anymore.
We all don’t need a war with China and we don’t need a war with Russia… We need to allow the Russian people and Chinese people to have a full democracy not a fake democracy, not a flawed democracy, but a full democracy ( like Ireland for example).
We don’t need anymore killing or wars or any of it; really. We need to act like one earth and share resources and save the planet…
Democracies tend to get along with other democracies… That’s the only reason I bring it up 😉
Right and how are we going to encourage that state of affairs? Because we tried asking really nicely and that didn’t work we tried sanctions and that didn’t work and the people don’t seem that interested in rising up themselves so what do we do?
The options are war or to ignore it.
Rising up themselves?
They did and they also left the country. The ones who were able to anyways. The rest are brainwashed.
No one is ignoring anything and Russian army is at great fatigue…
I don’t know what the solution is. But new conflicts and wars aren’t a solution at all. Just a step closer to WW/// OR global genocide by nuclear weapons= mass extinction of humans … And probably a big loss of knowledge; history; culture ETC.
NTHX
Thanks for the downvotes. You all don’t think WW/// or nuclear war can happen/is possibilities?
We need to allow
Oh crap, I guess we didn’t realize we were sitting on the remote with the button that prevented that!
Honestly, I appreciate the “good vibes” tone here but it’s painfully naive in any practical sense.
Ye, “allow” / help.
If Russia doesn’t have intervention and doesn’t get reformed by other countries it will ALWAYS go back to its corrupt/crooked ways. If it’s closed off like North Korea it will absolutely be even more extremist then now. And now is pretty fucking bad already.
Think Japan and Germany… If they didn’t have the world get involved, they’d still be what they were in WW2.
I’m not sure there is a way to “help” other than war, unfortunately
Edit: which is a pretty crappy wayto help
Oh you’re gonna move your last three tanks there? Good luck with that venture lmao
They can make a big show of parking the T14s and Su-57s there knowing they won’t have to be put to use and no one will find out how shit they are.
Maybe they are opening a military museum in Vyborg.
What military? Drunk old men?
So the plan working as intended. Spread’em thin, Ivan.
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Forget article 5, if Russia thinks that Ukrainians are tough mothers, they (literally) won’t know what hit them in Finland.
Thick, dense forests with millions of trees. Moutainous regions. Snow forever. Lots of places a sniper pair could hide.
Wake up, Simo Hayha. Finland needs its protector once more.
They probably forgot about the Winter War.
And a thirst for death that would make even the most hardcore Peshmerga blush.
Even forget about snipers, Finland have one of the best artillery in Europe and a geography that’s almost made for creating bottlenecks for invaders
There’s too much mud and rain in Ukraine right now, so they need an excuse to pull back
Let me guess, another “training exercise”?
