Despite a long track record of anti-LGBTQ+ comments and advocacy, he has insisted he can’t be a hateful person because he’s a Christian.
I think he’s got it backwards. He can’t be a Christian because he’s a hateful person.
Right, this “not a real Christian” bullshit that Christians use to brush away the hateful people and teachings within your religion.
Own up to these people, they’re your fellow Christians no matter how much you claim they aren’t. Own them and fix them, instead of sweeping them under the rug and claiming they aren’t real
If they have to tell you they are Christian, they are not. If they have to tell you they are honest, they are not. If the have to tell you that they don’t watch porn, they do.
There’s no Christian stamp of approval. Your are the religion you say you are
Calling yourself a Christian is not the same as being a Christian.
It’s the only requirement
Nope.
Ok but also if you think that being a good person is correlated with being a Christian that’s also a problem. I’m a heretical apostate to Christianity but I act more in line with the teachings of Jesus than many Christians. Does that make me more Christian than them despite me having different gods? Or is it just that they’re bad at following the rules of their religion? I think it’s the latter. I think most if not all religious traditions place some weight on and expectations around being halfway decent, and Mike Johnson is a shitty person. He’d be shitty in any religion.
I see a lot of Christians say that they should “show you’re a Christian instead of saying it”, but like how about just be a good person and I won’t infer your religion off of it
Or is it just that they’re bad at following the rules of their religion?
The problem is that this basically can’t be the case, because all the rules are made up pretty much ad hoc and everyone can just justify whatever interpretation cause the holy spirit told them that was the right way, and they’re more in touch with god than you, yadda yadda.
Definitions of who is and isn’t a shitty person is also kind of up in the air. This guy definitely is, but the christian who’s been brainwashed into believing that gay people are sinners as a matter of the rules of the universe by their god? I dunno. Plot twist, though, this guy and the brainwashed guy are the same guy. YMMV depending on whether or not you believe it’s intent, or action, that specifically causes harm, though, cause lots of people can walk around thinking that and never attain positions of power like what this guy has, even if they might end up performing the same given the role.
I’m not given to thinking that all of christianity is bad or whatever, that would be throwing out the baby with the bathwater. But I’ve been raised in the religion, I’ve seen a lot of it, and there’s a much, much higher proportion of what people would call “fake” christians, in proportion to the ones that are nice and accepting and whatever. I dunno if they’re fake, at that point, just by sheer numbers, just by the fact that that’s what exists in the common consciousness as a “christian” way more than some nice dude.
In many cases, they created these monsters
If they’re not following the teachings of the founder of the religion, they’re not part of the religion. It’s not the No True Scotsman fallacy, because being a part of the religion requires them to do something (repent and love others) which they refuse to do.
Incidentally, I’d love to “fix them,” but they don’t think that I’m a Christian because I don’t worship Trump.
That’s very nice, but we’ve still got to contend with the reality that an entire political party in the US is using Christianity as an excuse to do horrifically evil shit, and a sizeable contingent of everyday people who also claim the label are in support of that. As an outside observer and not a Christian myself, it seems like a semantic distinction that ultimately misses the forest for the trees.
Yes, we do have to contend with that. And one thing they are counting on is that the excuse of Christianity carries with it a benefit of the doubt that they can trade on extensively with the “middle ground” Christians who are only supporting them because of the assumption of shared faith. But if we (meaning Christians who see the hypocrisy in their claims) can draw a sharp line of distinction between the two, perhaps we can prove that it was all a sham and turn the middle ground against them as well.
being a part of the religion requires them to do something (repent and love others)
By your definition, but there are plenty of people who seem to have other definitions, enough that he is publicly labeled as a Christian. It would seem the strict biblical definition of who is a Christian does not apply, like many other biblical rules, such as not wearing clothing of mixed fabrics.
You’re not going to convince non Christians he’s not one you with denial alone. You can either own him and better him, or suffer the changing public perception of your religion.
By your definition, but there are plenty of people who seem to have other definitions, enough that he is publicly labeled as a Christian.
It’s not my definition. It’s explicitly the founder’s definition. There’s not really any room for interpretation in “by this they will know you’re my disciples: if you love one another.” Not loving? Not Christian.
It would seem the strict biblical definition of who is a Christian does not apply, like many other biblical rules, such as not wearing clothing of mixed fabrics.
Maybe not for them, but words mean things, and I’m not going to accept their redefinition of a term that applies to me.
You’re not going to convince non Christians he’s not one you with denial alone.
I’m really not sure what the other option is, but I’m not trying to convince non-Christians that he’s not a Christian. I’m trying to convince other Christians that he isn’t.
You can either own him and better him,
Love to, but he (and those like him) doesn’t believe I’m a Christian, because I’m not a Republican. So they won’t listen to people like me. Excommunication and public repudiation is a badge of honor to them. About the best I can do is try to say to other Christians, as loudly as I can and with as much Scripture as possible, that he’s a heretic.
or suffer the changing public perception of your religion.
I totally grant that we haven’t done much to change that perception in recent years, and I’m far from trying to demand (or assume) that it should change overnight.
There’s not really any room for interpretation in “by this they will know you’re my disciples: if you love one another.”
There is room for interpretation in every statement, and that is far from the only quote in the Bible that defines what a Christian is.
and I’m not going to accept their redefinition of a term that applies to me.
Then nobody else needs to accept your definition either.
I’m not trying to convince non-Christians that he’s not a Christian. I’m trying to convince other Christians that he isn’t.
You are literally trying to convince me, an atheist, right now.
Love to, but he (and those like him) doesn’t believe I’m a Christian, because I’m not a Republican. So they won’t listen to people like me.
You can’t do anything about it and it’s his fault that you can’t? Because that’s a really pathetic defense.
This is a really dumb slapfight you’ve picked and you should apologize to this guy.
It seems you just want to argue. If he said that grass was green, you’d come back with “well actually it’s all colors EXCEPT for green. Green is what’s reflected back to your eye.”
The fact is there are basic truths. Christians believe and follow the teachings of Jesus. If someone is not following those teachings, they are not Christian.
I can say I’m a purple elephant and I hate all pink mice because my savior in the Book of Phants told me to. None of that is any more true just because I said it. Likewise, for Mike Johnson. He and his friends can say whatever they want. Their actions show their true beliefs.
There is room for interpretation in every statement,
Not if you’re intellectually honest. Which…ok, fair enough, but I stand by my statement.
and that is far from the only quote in the Bible that defines what a Christian is.
Very true. But the guy who started it all said it quite clearly, and everything else he said that drew edges around this thing points to or flows out of that statement. It’s not like there’s some arcane other thing people can do that’s completely unrelated; there’s no secret magic. It’s all pretty straightforward.
Then nobody else needs to accept your definition either.
I’m not asking non-Christians to. I’m asking people who claim to be Christians to understand what that term has historically meant, and what it meant at the beginning.
You are literally trying to convince me, an atheist, right now.
You’re the one asking.
You can’t do anything about it and it’s his fault that you can’t? Because that’s a really pathetic defense.
I mean, if you’ve got any better ideas, I’m all ears. Seriously, I’m willing to try quite a lot at this point.
I do want to point out that this is a standard that most groups are not held to. Dog lovers are not called to “come get your boy” anytime sometime who claims to be a dog lover kicks a puppy. I’m all for Christians being called to a higher standard—I think we should be, and I think we should rise to it—but I’m really not sure what you think the options are here.
but there are plenty of people who seem to have other definitions,
"The Protestant Reformation was a mistake. " -Martin Luther
Right, this “not a real Christian” bullshit that Christians use to brush away the hateful people and teachings within your religion.
You literally are acting against the teachings of Christ if you act like Johnson, which is the entire point of the op-ed you didn’t read.
He isn’t “sweeping them under the rug” but rather calling them out as heretics, and calling out Christians to do the same.
Before writing a big emotional response like this, I’d recommend reading the linked content.
I have mixed feelings about that instinct. Calling out and distancing from the religious hypocrites is a Jesus thing to do. But also when non Christians fear Christians they need to understand why we feel that way and many Christians don’t seem to understand that I’m even scared of Christianity at it’s best.
So in short, do they just disavow or do they adamantly oppose as well? If they do the latter I’m happy they do the former, but I’ve seen far too many think the former is enough before they start shit talking atheists
No True Scotsman.
and fix them
Maybe you should set an example and “fix” all the edgelord atheists.
Atheism isn’t a religion, it’s the absence of it. I can’t fix them because they’re not a group or club. Also, they don’t follow a book with a god that tells them to “take the dust out of your own eye first”, Christians do. So maybe follow your own teachings, instead of trying to impose them on others
Atheism isn’t a religion, but it’s a belief system, and edgy atheists who pick fights for no reason are indeed annoying.
I’m not an “edgy atheist” if anything I’m an anti theist, who used to be an evangelical Christian, until I got out of that cult after two decades of sexual abuse, brain washing and hate filled teachings. So now that I’m out, naturally not only do I not believe in a god, but I straight up despise religion and the damage it does to people
I’m not an “edgy atheist” if anything I’m an anti theist,
I straight up despise religion and the damage it does to people
Lol how do you even write this with a straight face.
You sound like a brain washed cultist
And “Christian” isn’t a homogeneous group – it’s also something anyone can claim membership of. By itself the label doesn’t tell you if someone is a good person or an asshole.
Apart from “this person believes Jesus Christ was real” it doesn’t tell you anything.
It doesn’t have to be homogenous. The belief that you mention, though, is based on someone from a book without evidence who is supposedly quoted as giving the rules that those people are to live by. You can’t claim to be part of that group and also claim that you don’t believe the person who is the figurehead of the belief. That idea has to be shared in order to claim membership in that group.
Atheism isn’t a religion,
Good thing you told us - it wouldn’t be obvious otherwise.
not a group or club.
The whiny ones sure do seem like they desperately want their own club.
“take the dust out of your own eye first”
Oh, I don’t know… dust in the eye can be a pretty uncomfortable thing.
your own teachings,
They’re not mine.
Yeah you sound worse than annoying atheists, like, a lot worse. If you can’t understand why they’d feel alienated by a society that loudly declares itself Christian then you need to get out of your bubble.
My beef with annoying atheists is how much many of treat it like a sect of Christianity instead of dechristianizing, but they’re typically new to their belief system, that’s ok, converts and apostates alike tend to be annoying for a while.
If you can’t understand why they’d feel alienated by a society that loudly declares itself Christian
Oh, the poor things… at least they still have white supremacism, nationalism and capitalism to cling onto, eh?
but they’re typically new to their belief system
Nice of you to admit that they haven’t really managed to escape the whole “belief system” thing… in spite of their claims.
Anyway next time you wonder why people don’t associate religion with morality and why many who seek religion write off Christianity check the mirror
Yikes…
You have a selection bias going on, there. You will tend to notice the “whiny ones” more often, because they are whiny. This is the same reason as to why, to you, it’s not obvious that it’s not a religion.
You’re also going line by line on the comment which I should tell you is omega cringe and completely misses the main thesis of the comment in exchange for being kind of smarmy and quippy, which I would say is very unchristlike. Their point is that self-identifying as christian is a positive group, it’s a group you choose to identify as. Being an atheist is something you are because you don’t identify as belonging to any religion, it’s a negative group. Atheists are the non-black non-ravens, they constitute literally everything that isn’t. Which one do you think would be the more coherent, singular group, there? It’s like if you had a classification of all chairs being, things with four legs that you sit on. Atheists, in this metaphor, would be everything that isn’t a chair. Even with that shitty definition of a chair, that includes horses, chairs will still be a more coherent and singular group, than “everything that isn’t a chair”. That’s their point.
Maybe he doesn’t hate and he just loves killin’
Important to understand that there’s also a form of civil war going on within the Church in the US between the more liberal churches, which this pastor represents, and the conservative, evangelical churches, which Mike Johnson represents.
Can confirm.
In my town, a lot of the churches are more about peace and love and helping the community. They fly lgbtq+ flags. Their biggest outdoor events involve feeding homeless, or cleaning the parks.
They absolutely hate these mega church types, and often get lumped into the shit.
That sounds a lot more Christ-like (feed the hungry, give as much as you can to the poor etc) than whatever mutation the evangelicals are worshipping.
The Episcopalians do it right. They allowed gay ministers well over a decade ago.
Jesus also instructed us on how to properly beat our slaves
< nitpick >I could be operating with incomplete information, but I don’t think that was technically Jesus, I’m pretty sure that was in Exodus, which was much earlier.< / nitpick >
Far more than just Exodus
https://www.biblestudytools.com/topical-verses/bible-verses-about-slavery/
And yeah my mistake, it was NT but not Jesus. Southern states used all of these verses to justify chattal slavery in the US.
That being said, Jesus referenced slavery all of the time without condemning it (in fact I think he tells slave masters to treat their slaves well. That’s not ok). He used slaves and slavery as allegories in his parables, etc.
Jesus himself said that he came to fulfill the old law and that not a word of it will change (in so many words). He explicitly supports Old Testament law, and therefore supports slavery and the rules surrounding beating them. If he didn’t, he could have very easily had said so.
He tacitly approved of it. And I couldn’t care less about “the times”. Slavery is bad, period. No matter what/where it’s taking place.
There’s a church near me that flies a pride flag. Now, I’m not Christian (or LGBTQ) so I wouldn’t go to pray there, but I was happy to see it. Too many places of worship make the news for how hateful they are. It’s nice to see one advertising how inclusive they are.
Again, I’m not Christian and thus not an expert on Jesus, but from what I know his message was a pretty good one. Help the poor, the sick, and anyone else who needs assistance. If more churches actually followed Jesus instead of screaming that the Bible says you should buy more guns, assault immigrants, hate people different from you, and worship Trump while giving the pastor as much money as possible, then maybe they would be in better shape.
Viva Christo Rey
Important to note that the sides are in like a 5:1 ratio and Johnson is on the larger side.
Also the liberal churches are far older and are shrinking; denominations and mega-churches who act like Johnson’s are growing.
Young people see it all as a bunch of bs, except the radical ones, which drives religion to greater and greater insanity.
It’s also a simple matter of funding.
The megachurches preaching prosperity gospel, cramming 10,000 people into a building, and hoarding their wealth (most don’t pay apportionments to a larger denomination that is used to fund service projects) find it easier to keep the doors open than the little churches that focus on compassion and community service.
Righteous Gemstones vibes
The divide falls between small churches that help their community, and large churches that help themselves…
So if theres a break between the churches… again. How long till we get some christian anarchist type beheading random pastors or some other John Brown type shit.
It just dawned on me that evangelicals are the evangélicos in South America. Let me tell you, South America being 90% Catholic, we see evangelicals as crazy fanatics. If someone told me that an evangélico was part of the government in the country I grew up with, most people would immediately dismiss whatever they have to say about people going to hell or whatever.
I guess the only difference with this guy is that he’s wielding too much power, which makes him dangerous. But other than that, anything he has to say will be met with “sure, sure, old man, praise the lord whatever, go pray somewhere far away from me.”
You know, watching religion decline in the west largely as a result of the more fanatical like Johnson, I kinda hope their side wins so we can be done with it. There are few things that are more of a cancer on society (globally as well) than religion and the dogmatic approach to the world that it espouses.
The Devil having found no traction with drug addicts, thieves & prostitutes, and perl programmers has decided to use Christian leaders.
It would be believable if the first groups didn’t entirely compose last one.
I agree that the devil would go after perl programmers, as sloth is a sin.
Something something who doesn’t remember Black Perl?
And that Pontius Pilate wrote only in Lingua::Romana::Perligata
People called Javascriptum they go the house?
then python programmers came and literally made a hash out of everything
same with the drug addicts
| Linux kernel 6.6.6 released
Coincidence?! I think not
It’s worse than that, he’s a Republican
Matthew 7:15-20
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
“I’ll take ‘Metaphor Translations’ for $100, Alex.”
What is made up bullshit?
To define “fruit,” reference Galatians 5:22-23 - “… the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control.”
If I believed in God or the Devil, I’d find claim that he’s controlled by the Devil more believable than Johnson’s claim that he’s working for God.
Though these days I associate “Christianity” more with hate than with love.
Welcome to the club. Hateful is 90% of the Christianity queer people experience.
While I am mightily amused to see the God Squad fighting amongst themselves…
You should read the op-ed. It’s actually very good
This just in: superstitious con artists engage in slapfight.
Film at 11.
I don’t know if this weird little man is controlled by the xtian devil, but I do know that like so many of today’s cons/GOP, he is one creepy weirdo. A party filled with creepy weirdos.
Imagine thinking your god (note the lack of a capital g the provincial xtians love to use) gives you a right to poke around in others’ lives.
Xtians? Are we serious? Good grief lol
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I’m just going to say yes.
I can’t tell what that means ?
Think of it as how the shorthand version of CHRISTmas is Xmas and it make a tad more sense albeit still a rather unnecessary abbreviation in this situation.
I mean, strictly speaking, are not all abbreviations unnecessary? Sticking-my-tongue-out
ASCIIAmerican Standard Code for Information Interchange symbol face.It serves a purpose to be concise within professional circles but you do have to be more descriptive with the general public sometimes. Nobody gonna know what CYP2D6 means unless you explain it.
(It’s a liver enzyme that metabolizes various things)
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I just want to pause here and say that this kind of thing, much like basically any bumper sticker ever, is stupid as fuck and I hate it. Whether it’s my dumb fucking cousin saying “Killary” or equally annoying mouth breathers talking about “Drumpf.” Like, I’m as atheist as the day is long, and holy shit does it make the parent comment annoying to read. Your super great “hillary lied, people died” bumper sticker, the “honk if Trump should go to jail,” just all of it. It sucks, I hate it, it’s the laziest form of persuasion (spoilers, it’s persuading no one, it’s just pissing off the people you want to convince.) Oh you didn’t capitalize the ‘g’? Well fuck it’s me the pope, let’s peace out and go get tacos this Jesus thing was dumb anyway.
He supports the Antichrist, of course he is evil.
Just in case you are unaware the entire concept of the anti-christ was supposed to be Nero. The last book of the Bible was very controversial partially because of this reason. Other stuff you can argue about but to me at least this is a proven false prophecy and really should not be part of Christianity. However, I am a non-believer so maybe you shouldn’t follow my advice.
This is just an op-ed piece that links to another op-ed piece.
Seriously.
Does anyone know if there are any political communities that don’t consider op-ed pieces to be news? For example, a community that has strict rules that news must be free of journalistic bias and only cite news that factually happened with no agenda?
Because that would be cool.
free of journalistic bias and only cite news that factually happened with no agenda
Does such news even exist anymore?
I mean, Reuters. AP News, BBC, PBS news… there plenty of non biased news sources that don’t tel you have to fee about what they’re shoveling.
Ground News may be what you are looking for. On top of claiming to you the story straight, they show you stats of whether it’s getting more press on the left or right. They have a bunch of stats in their paid tiers, I think.
I don’t know the reputation of the people behind it, and I don’t use it heavily, but I like to hit their site/app from time to TMNT.
The devil has seen better days. You would expect a devil controlled human to be some sorta uber-human ultimate fighter. Zipping around the battlefield, single handedly committing whole outrages. Not some schmuck in a suit who got his job because of political stalemate.
I mean the devil is literally the great deceiver. in all biblical portrayals the only thing devil does is lie essentially. the lies sow doubts and people lose their faith.
what you’re describing is more along the lines of demons. and they’re technically easier to deal with because it’s so obvious.
I’m not religious but the devil really is a clever construct in Christianity, and highlights the best “feature”: salvation is based on faith and faith alone and everyone can be saved.
it is so much more effective at brainwashing than materialistic control
The devil never lies in the Bible. In the garden of Eden story (yes retrocon) he is the only one telling the truth. In Job he got something wrong but didn’t lie.
In any case there is no god so you can move on with your life.
“Controlled by the devil” - that’s silly. I think the real debate is whether he’s controlled by Godzilla or Mothra.
But we can be sure he’s not controlled by Gamera because Gamera is a friend to all children. (and he’s really neat)
Mitch is full of turtle meat.
Those old Godzilla documentaries have higher production values than the bible dramatizations I saw as a kid.
Despite a long track record of anti-LGBTQ+ comments and advocacy, he has insisted he can’t be a hateful person because he’s a Christian.
Oh, what a relief.
This little slapfight would be quite funny to watch from the sidelines if they weren’t fighting it with out rights.
