Is this a “the right can’t meme” thing? Liberals are opposed to the current Russia-ukraine war and Israeli-palestine war and are currently supporting the newest civil rights movement.
Nah I think it’s just the same snake-in-the-grass right wing propaganda bullshit that infects every leftist space online to sow complacency and disempower us with apathy by trying to convince us that the comparative left-ish-leaning party is the same or worse than the right so as to maintain the hold on power the right has. It’s bullshit anti-leftist wolf-in-sheep’s-clothing rhetoric. Same as it always was.
Edit: typos.
I’m guessing they mean liberal in the classical sense and not liberal in the liberal/conservative meaning of the current US political parties.
They’re talking about the current wars and the current civil rights movements, so that wouldn’t make sense anyway.
“Whigs sure hate Instagram”.
“Liberal” means differently to the left (socialists and far-left to be precise). In the classical sense, a “liberal” promotes individualism, free market and private property, which many on the far-left rejects.
Which classical sense are you referring to?
From Wikipedia:
Classical liberalism is a political tradition and a branch of liberalism which advocates free market and laissez-faire economics; and civil liberties under the rule of law, with special emphasis on individual autonomy, limited government, economic freedom, political freedom and freedom of speech. Classical liberalism, contrary to liberal branches like social liberalism, looks more negatively on social policies, taxation and the state involvement in the lives of individuals, and it advocates deregulation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_liberalism?wprov=sfla1
And your contention is that OP, commenting in 2023, without qualifiers, is referring to a term referring to 200-year-old conservatives?
Either way, the meme is either using an incorrect or irrelevant term.
You are giving op more than the benefit of a doubt.
You obviously did not know why “liberal” is a pejorative term used by those from the left, of all the people you would least expect to do so based from contemporary (mis)understanding.
Not even close. Like OP, your false assumptions render your point invalid.
Umm… do you realise what lemmy community you are commenting on? Probably not even close.
If someone was opposed to a war they wouldn’t want to contribute to it. I don’t see anyone saying they want to fight or bomb Israel but lots of people do want to fight and bomb Russia.
Liberals don’t want to contribute to the wars, they’re against both the Russian invasion and the IDF atrocities, as well as the hamas atrocities.
The difference between Israel and Russia is that Israel is responding to a terrorist attack in a horrific way with 70 years of animosity and attacks behind their retaliation, while Russia is breaking treaties and trying to invade and steal a country that they have already stolen part of back in 2014.
While liberals are calling out for Israel to pull back and stop the atrocities, they’re content at watching Ukraine kick Russia’s ass for the illegal russian invasion and attempted second annexation of Ukrainian territory.
These are not the same situations at all.
That’s just the same thing in more paragraphs. Unless you want to stop the contribution of money and weapons to Ukraine you are in support of the war. Nowhere did I say that’s a bad thing by the way, I just like things to be accurate and I’ve been watching the meaning of “anti war” turn into a meaningless label that people feel like they need to put on themselves to be a good person.
If you like accuracy, you must be furious at yourself.
You’re being deliberately vague, disingenuous and narrow-minded.
You’re arguing for any country that is illegally invaded by a superior military force to just give up their country.
Placation is not the way to stop wars, promoting illegal invasion and annexation actively causes more wars. So does not doing anything.
Russia already illegally invaded and stole territory in 2014 and is now doing it again because nobody stopped them.
You’re arguing that we should just let any country invade and steal territory.
You are wrong fundamentally and on the specifics.
If you support a war then you support a war and it sounds like you do support the Ukraine war. Do you want your country to give money, weapons, and people (aka support) to Ukraine or do you not?
Your flawed argument is that the soldiers fighting Nazis were pro-war. No, they were anti illegal genocide, invasion and annexation.
On the separate narrow note you’re trying to equivocate with false narratives only you are putting forth, I personally want Ukraine to receive as much support as possible, because it’s radically weakening a violent hostile country that has already proven it is hell bent on stealing territory.
Proving to the world that Russia is not a threat militarily and removing any further capacity for violent Russian hostility for decades has been a great investment.
Try again
You support genocide.
… in Ukraine. They want to fight and bomb Russian soldiers in Ukraine.
Alright Chamberlain. Brilliant logic you’ve put into this situation.
Liberals have come down hard in uncritical support of the nazi militias in Ukraine and on the Israeli side of the Palestinian struggle for freedom. Both are the pro-war stances.
Liberals have been against the Russian invasion from day one, and Russia is driving that war.
Most people have been ignorant of the Israel and Palestine conflicts until recently, and most western media glorifies the IDF because it’s a stabilizing democratic force in a notoriously anti-west region, but liberals are all upset with the current Palestinian genocide.
There are liberal pro-Palestinian anti-hamas civil rights movement right now.
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I’m against both current wars and for the current civil rights movements, so you’re 0 for 3 there.
By your logic, you’re the lib the meme is talking about.
Your Russian propaganda is b*******, russia invaded and tried to annex the rest of Ukraine the same way that they annexed Crimea because Putin is a cowardly, greedy dictator.
And you’re just agreeing with me about the IDF, so thanks, I guess.
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You’re close about Putin using a baseless pretense to invade and steal further territory from Ukraine, wrong about the Russian-Ukrainian peacetime relationship, and you haven’t mentioned that putin also disarmed Ukraine in a nuclear anti-arms treaty to ensure ukraine couldn’t fight back before putin broke the treaty, annexed crimea and then invaded a second time when nobody stood up to him the first time.
But hey, you got the names correct. Mostly.
Two, You’re agreeing with me about the IDF because I condemned the Palestinian genocide by the IDF. You, then, ostensibly condemned the Palestinian genocide.
This part might be difficult for you to follow, but if you condemn the same thing I already condemned, you are agreeing with me.
Man I shouldn’t make fun of you sorry. Your response is the kind of shit I would have said a couple weeks ago.
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Lol the one person that gets the post is downvoted.
Hey libs, we’re talking about you wanting to send hundreds of billions of dollars to literal Nazis that we helped move into power by overthrowing Ukraine’s government.
Whoops, looks like hexbear is leaking again
You hate that Palestine is getting food and water supplies, don’t you?
Nice projection zionist liberal
What is opposing a war?
People call themselves war opponents when they oppose invading Vietnam, which is good.
People also call themselves war opponents when they oppose Ukraine defending itself, which is bad. They support Russia invading Ukraine. They support wars except the ones when the US is invading.
nobody opposes to Ukraine defending itself.
Anti-War stance involves opposing Russia for invading Ukraine along with blood thirsty neoliberals like Victoria nuland who will sacrifice Ukrainian people to advance US strategic interest. They want this war to go on as long as they can make it go on. no price is too small.
No one buys what you’re selling. Russia can end the war today, but they won’t, because they’re run by a literally evil kleptocratic dictator.
wow such a nuanced take you got there. I wish I had the intellectual capacity to engage with you.
We wish you did too. More informed dialog always benefits a conversation.
Most self-aware idiot.
The Ukrainians want to join the West than align with Russia. Conspiracy theories or not, the Ukrainians in the run-up to the Maidan revolution were agitated when then Ukrainian president Viktor Yanukovych reneged on the deal with the EU only to sign a deal with the Russians at the last minute. Unlikely that Ukrainians as a whole were somehow brainwashed and “coup” the government.
No one ever asked the Ukrainians what they want, haven’t they? Or are we talking to Russian bots speaking on Ukrainians’ behalf because they think Ukrainians are their little brothers who doesn’t know any better? Ukraine is always “little Russia” for them, isn’t it?
The Ukrainians want to join the West
The majority do but nobody in a comments section should claim to speak for what Ukrainians want. We’re finding out more and more about how peace may have been achievable as early as spring 2022 if Ukraine committed to not joining NATO. I don’t claim to speak for the preferences of a nation, but you can see how this may change the context of the prolonging war. WW1 was expected to be short and quick, but when people saw what it had become we heard things like, “never again.”
A lot of Ukrainians are escaping conscription right now just like my pacifist Ukrainian ancestors did. In my western country there’s a whole network of support for these people, where you might know of someone organizing resources for Ukrainian families but never know the individuals themselves for secrecy. This isn’t talked about in Western media very much because our countries are very pro-Ukraine joining NATO. Our media mostly talks about isolated incidents where Ukraine came out on top using Western weapons, and how supporting Ukraine with weapons is the only way to counter Putin’s strategy. It’s a cartoonish version of what’s going on that people can feel invested in and good about, the material human situation is a different thing.
Ukraine did not even want to join NATO, they just want to join the EU. However, Russia, because they want to carve their own sphere of influence, think Ukraine joining the EU is tantamount to joining NATO.
Also, Russia invaded the entirety of Ukraine, why would Ukraine say they don’t want to join NATO anymore after Russia occupied nearly half the country? And Putin’s claim of stopping NATO expansion is obviously a load of crap when two nations just joined NATO! How would that exactly stop the alliance from expanding after invading another country? Even if Ukraine gave promise not to join NATO in spring 2022 (which, by the way, sounds implying demanding surrender from Ukraine), Finland and Sweden still would have joined after what Russia had just done.
Even so, the previous NATO summit did not even provide guarantee to Ukraine that they will be allowed to join! The narrative of Ukraine joining NATO from Russian perspective was not a forgone conclusion until Putin decided to annex Crimea, support the separatists and invade the rest of Ukraine. The very thing he feared from happening just happened because of his own hubris. It is a self-fulfilling prophecy of his own making!
There are many draft dodgers from Ukraine, not surprising there. Any wars have them, not that I would blame them personally. Nevertheless, most Ukrainian men and women of fighting age are still willing to fight.
The idea of Russia as a single irrational actor surrounded by rational actors just isn’t accurate, it purports that there are no rational reasons for their actions and thus explains nothing. So you’re left thinking what you’ve typed there, just no ability to explain the actions of Russia other than being dumbfounded by it in this cartoonish way. Ukraine is easy to rationalize because they’re defending themselves as they have the right to, as well as entertain and control their own alliances as a sovereign nation does.
The rich soils and gas reserves of Ukraine are exploitable resources, and Russia is an imperialist actor competing for these resources with the EU and NATO, and Ukraine. The capitalist class in Russia want access to these resources and pressures the government to act in their interest, the government must support the economic arrangement that sustains their legitimacy and power. All the stuff you’ve said about how Putin is dumb may be completely true but ignores these structural causes of this conflict and assumes it’s one man’s irrational decisions that have caused all this. Seeing the structural causes here provides rational explanations for why not just this conflict, but why these types of conflicts occur. Competition between capitalists for who gets to exploit limited resources, yes it’s that simple.
Nobody should be compelled to violence by a greater power than their own. Radical non-violence is a different mindset than that which sustains state powers and it takes a strong belief that another world is possible to follow it. People say it’s not realistic while dying in the service of fairy tales, at least my fairy tale offers an alternative.
The idea of Russia as a single irrational actor surrounded by rational actors just isn’t accurate, it purports that there are no rational reasons for their actions and thus explains nothing.
Yes, if the person subscribes to realpolitik/realist theory then what you say is correct. Which is why I said Russia wants to carve their own sphere of influence. As you mentioned, Ukraine is resource-rich. But even so, Russia is a huge country and they already have loads of resources under the sun. Having Ukraine’s resources just adds to their collection.
But the most rational reason for Russian imperialism from the realist perspective is that Ukraine being in the West’s influence would make Russia feel insecure and vulnerable. Ukraine’s flatlands lead straight to the vital Russian oil supply in Caucasus-- the Volgograd gap as they call it. Even before the German invasion of the Soviet Union in World War II, many German planners proposed ro concentrate their forces in Ukraine to strike USSR. The Soviets have (incorrectly) anticipated this and put most of their armoured forces in Ukraine. But as history unfolded, the Germans focused straight to Moscow not Ukraine. Although the German forces in Ukraine in 1941 suffered heavy casualties because they faced the best Soviet forces there.
Let’s face it though, the term “realism” and “realpolitik” is a misnomer and counter to “reality” and “rationality”. The reality is that there is no reason as to why people across the world should not get along and try to usurp one another. There is no rational reason for it other than our un-evolved lizard brains trying to be competitive with one another.
The fields of dead russians are a grisly cartoon. I think you’re the one with distorted views, personally.
They want this war to go on as long as they can make it go on. no price is too small.
Bullshit. Russia can end this war tomorrow by respecting the treaties it signed with Ukraine.
The Treaty on Friendship, Cooperation, and Partnership between Ukraine and the Russian Federation was an agreement between Ukraine and Russia, signed in 1997, which fixed the principle of strategic partnership, the recognition of the inviolability of existing borders, and respect for territorial integrity and mutual commitment not to use its territory to harm the security of each other.
Russia invaded. Russia can leave. Otherwise Ukraine has every right to defend itself and it’s allies are wise to arm it.
You can see this all the time with Hollywood liberal values. All the gay stereotyping and jokes through the 90s then all of a sudden they’re patting themselves on the back for being the arbiters of social progress.
It reads a lot different if you’re familiar with Gourevitch’s writing, especially on the Rwandan genocide. “We Wish to Inform you that Tomorrow we Will be Killed with our Families.” Read it if you haven’t already.
I read new republic and nation
I’ve learned to take every view
You know, i’ve memorized lerner and golden
I feel like i’m almost a jew
But when it comes to times like korea
There’s no one more red, white and blue
So love me, love me, love me, i’m a liberal
Correct
This is a joke, right?
It’s almost like one must examine and consider each conflict individually.
I’m liberal and support trans/gay rights, woman’s body autonomy, social umbrellas for the poor and unhoused, legalization of recreational drugs, but I also like guns and desire all minorities who have no agency to own them, as well as support all wars against bullies because pacifism does nothing to stop them otherwise. Where do I stand? I guess I’ll go fuck myself then.
social umbrellas
Treat the symptoms not the cause
support all wars against bullies because pacifism does nothing to stop them otherwise.
Simplify geopolitics into “bullies”, support the actions of NATO/US as though they’re not “bullies”
Pretty much liberal yeah
Treat the symptoms not the cause.
You’ll find that almost all liberals also want to treat the cause, but they are blocked at every step by conservatives and centrists.
Treat the symptoms not the cause
Treat both. They usually give you a painkiller while setting your bones.
Wait until they find out that there’s a ton of “we don’t know what the underlying cause is” and “we don’t have a cure for that yet” in medicine. In which case you have to do your best treating the symptoms – which is also true outside of the world of medicine.
Sometimes a temporary fix buys you time to do it right. Sometimes a perfect or even “really good” solution isn’t feasible for myriad reasons: so you do the best with what you have.
It’s just such a stupid false dichotomy. Give the man the fish and teach him to fish. It’s a lot easier to learn on a full stomach.
You expect leftists to do anything but idly daydream about the day that a socialist revolution finally and magically falls into their laps?
A leftist is someone who opposes every war except for the ones the fascists might win.
