• Excrubulent@slrpnk.net
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    1 year ago

    Who still thinks any state is the good guys? Hamas and Israel are both enemies of the people.

    The only way to cut through the propagandistic lies of these groups is to point out that neither truly represents the people they say they do.

    • Earthwormjim91@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      I mean, Hamas took power by killing Palestinian civilians. They don’t represent anyone and they openly say they will martyr civilians.

      The Palestinian National Authority (Fatah) was the democratically elected government of Palestine before 2007. Hamas staged a coup and executed Fatah officials, which is why Gaza and the West Bank are separate entities today.

      Hamas is as much a state as Al-Qaeda. They’re a terrorist group that seized power by way of murder and have openly declared they intend to use their citizens as shields and martyrs.

      They’re not a state. They’re a terror cell that deserves to be eliminated. Unfortunately their own admitted tactics of using civilians as shields means that civilians will be killed.

      • Excrubulent@slrpnk.net
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        1 year ago

        They aren’t making the IDF bomb apartment buildings, which is something they’ve been doing for decades, before Israel helped create Hamas.

        https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/

        So where is Israel’s responsibility there, in sponsoring terrorists? Or do we pretend notiing happened before the last few weeks because then we can sort of pretend Israel has no culpability, you know, if we squint and try to avoid looking at the bombing of civilians?

        • Earthwormjim91@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          Yes they are. By their own admission in this article.

          Hamas by their own damn admission uses civilians as shields and intends to martyr them.

          Your article leaves out the fact that Israel funded and supported several Islamic organizations at the time in both Gaza and the West Bank. One became a terrorist institution.

          Take the whole history into account. After the six day war, Israel was in the position that they needed all the support they could get. So they supported anyone that opposed the PLO, which was sponsored by Egypt and Fatah. Because that’s who they just were attacked by.

          Israel funded dozens of Islamic organizations that were opposed to Fatah, including mosques and schools. Hamas came out of one of them.

    • Quacksalber@sh.itjust.works
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      1 year ago

      Difference is, Israel isn’t meant to represent palestinian people, Hamas is. And they are doing a great job of it, if their job is getting civilians killed.

      Edit: Just think about the massive protests against Netanyahu earlier in the year. Do those show how in tune the Israeli government and people are? No. But the very fact they could protest mostly peacefully differentiates Israel’s treatment of its population from all of its neighbours.

      • Excrubulent@slrpnk.net
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        1 year ago

        The… what? I have no idea what you’re even trying to say.

        The IDF is still dropping bombs on civilians. You can invent whatever bullshit you feel like, it doesn’t make that somehow okay.

        • Quacksalber@sh.itjust.works
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          1 year ago

          The IDF is dropping bombs on (suspected) Hamas holdouts, which are all conveniently located next to civilians.

            • Quacksalber@sh.itjust.works
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              1 year ago

              Doesn’t change the fact that in this conflict, the IDF are trying to get Hamas targets with their attacks. And that the Hamas are the ones that built their infrastructure next to civilians, that Hamas did kill Israeli civilians indiscriminately and that the Hamas knew full well, that by building their infrastructure next to civilians and by mindlessly raiding Israeli territory, the IDF would respond and kill palestinian civilians while doing so. Israel wants to crush Hamas. Hamas wants as many people to die as possible, so that Israel is made a pariah internationally.

              • Excrubulent@slrpnk.net
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                1 year ago

                Right… so it’s so predictable that the IDF would bomb civilians that any provocation makes the provoker guilty of their murders?

                So basically the IDF are so irredeemable in your eyes they’re just a force of nature or something?

                Again, you’re also ignoring the fact that Israel created Hamas.

                And Israel SHOULD be a pariah. The only reason they’ve gotten away with this genocide for so long is because they’ve had unconditional US state backing.

                • Quacksalber@sh.itjust.works
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                  1 year ago

                  What do you think Israel should do then with Hamas? Let them get away with murdering more than 1200 Israelis? Conduct small-scale incursions at best? The fact of the matter is simply that the situation was fucked long before and the palestinian civilians were in accute danger of becoming collateral the moment the Hamas broke into Israel. If you are looking for a clearer good-guy bad-guy situation, look to the westbank. There, the Israeli settlers are clearly the ones in the wrong.

                  All the outrage in the world won’t stop Israel from continuing to bomb Hamas in Gaza. On the other hand, Abbas and Fatah got Palestine the recognition of most UN member states. And unlike Hamas, Fatah isn’t getting their civilians killed in droves.

                  • Excrubulent@slrpnk.net
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                    1 year ago

                    I’m not looking for a clearer good-guy-bad-guy situation. I said in my first comment that both Hamas and Israel are enemies of the people.

                    I don’t think either of them “should” do anything, but since “should” doesn’t factor into either of their decisions, it’s irrelevant anyway. They’ll keep oppressing people until they are stopped by organised resistance, just like it is with any oppressive system.

            • Scrof@sopuli.xyz
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              1 year ago

              It makes sense because it doesn’t violate Geneva conventions. If there are combatants hiding among civilians their deaths are 100% on said combatants. What do you expect Israel to do? After a terrorist attack that is equal to 17 (!) times the scope of 9/11 just to shrug it off and send more humanitarian aid to be pillaged by Hamas?

              • anteaters@feddit.de
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                1 year ago

                100%. People here scream “genocide” and “war crimes” but have no idea what these words mean. The “friends” of Palestine here make even Reddit look normal.

      • jet@hackertalks.com
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        1 year ago

        The Palestine territories are vassal states of Israel. Israel is ultimately responsible for the safety of civilians in the territory they control.

    • fosforus@sopuli.xyz
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      1 year ago

      Hamas and Israel are both enemies of the people.

      Uhmm. Are you aware that Israel is #4 on the World Happiness Index this year? It’s the happiest non-scandinavic country in the world. You don’t get there by being “enemy of the people”.

      Here are the rankings of Israel’s neighbors:

      • Egypt #121
      • Jordan #123
      • Lebanon #136 (second worst of all measured)
      • State of Palestine #99

      Israel is obviously not the problem in that area.

      • Excrubulent@slrpnk.net
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        1 year ago

        Wow, extremely wealthy country propped up by imperialism has a high happiness rating compared to extremely poor countries being stomped on by that same imperial war machine.

        Surely the poor countries are the problem.

        • fosforus@sopuli.xyz
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          1 year ago

          You must understand that you cannot explain it away like that. Palestine perhaps you might, but funnily enough, it’s the happiest country of those four.

          • Excrubulent@slrpnk.net
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            1 year ago

            Why not? Literally just give any explanation. You didn’t even try to explain in your first comment how “happiness” has anything to do with this.

            • fosforus@sopuli.xyz
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              1 year ago

              Why not? Literally just give any explanation.

              Egypt’s, Jordan’s and Lebanon’s bad standings in the happiness scale cannot in any way be explained away by Israel. Just because you lost several wars against an enemy several decades ago isn’t enough to explain any of it. So it’s all on them. As I said, Palestine’s bad situation might be explained by Israel, but again, it’s the happiest of those four.

              You didn’t even try to explain in your first comment how “happiness” has anything to do with this.

              You said that both Hamas and Israel are the enemies of the people. I disproved that notion by noting how Israel is #4 happiest country in the world. My apologies, I thought the inference was obvious.

              • Excrubulent@slrpnk.net
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                1 year ago

                I didn’t blame it on Israel, I said the imperial war machine. Israel the state is also the product of capitalist imperialism, but they are the beneficiary. I made that pretty clear I think.

                The poor countries on that list are all the target of structural adjustment policies, which basically say “you need to neglect your population and become indentured servants, and if you don’t we will fucking glass your country.” That last part about glassing them isn’t in the text, but it’s clearly implied by the context these policies take place in. Also the leaders are usually bribed so they will agree more readily.

                And just because Israeli citizens are “happy” according to some index that you’ve not actually shared, just insisted does exist, has nothing to do with whether the state is on their side. They are generally extremely wealthy people living in an extremely wealthy state that is propped up by US spending. The people who live there are expats from wealthy western countries, which is a privileged sample of a privileged sample.

                I’ll refer you to Hank’s Razor: “Anything that can be explained by socioeconomic status in a society, it’s probably that rather than the thing that you’re measuring.”

                This is almost certainly entirely socioeconomic status, directly influenced by geopolitics.

                Also, Israel’s genocide is not making their people safer. It is endangering them enormously. The state just can’t stop genociding because it’s been given a green light by the US imperial war machine, and that’s just how states behave when they have that kind of power.