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If I’d try that, I’d end up with no RAM at all…
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The GPU is integrated and uses system RAM as VRAM. Increasing the available VRAM should improve performance in titles with lots of high-res textures.
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You and that other technological genius are wrong. The device ships with 8GB of RAM and tools like CryoUtilities allow for more of that to allocated to the GPU framebuffer. This allows for measurably better performance. Cryo does this by increasing allocated GPU VRAM and enabling more swapping of RAM to disk, thereby giving the deck more usable VRAM.
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You are both rather uninformed. RAM can enable games to use more c library headers and avoid stack smashing by way of the UPC bussing through the central wafer. The reason why valve doesn’t use this bus path like they CAN is because the propagation delay is not even close to being a bottleneck on the lesser capacity chip but when you have 32gb chip, for example, the sequential NAND configuration doesn’t do any better at allocating memory because the pointers aren’t using malloc() in the transport layer anymore.
wtf did I just read?
You okay there, buddy? Not smelling any burnt toast, right?
I’m not wrong I just skipped a step in describing the value of having more RAM you egotistical cumstain… Cryo33 doesn’t just recommended increasing the GPU allocation in the recovery tools he practically states it’s a must.
And it’s really telling how practically every other x86 handheld starts at 16GB but please do shit on the basic premise that we should have more RAM because it’s so fundamentally flawed.
I’ll chime in and say all three of you are wrong and I refuse to elaborate further.
Uh, actually RAM amount is the difference between some games being playable or not at all, and there are plenty of game issues related to insufficient/low memory
On the Steam Deck? I’ve never heard anyone mention the amount of memory being the bottleneck on there.
How many people would actually be able to or take time to diagnose that versus “it started stuttering/crashed so I had to restart the game” ?
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Not the OP, but it’s decently well documented that there are games out there that are having a tough time with the memory constraints of the Steam Deck’s 16 GB: https://youtu.be/z94TcihZxME?t=145
Now I’ll grant that maybe it’s a memory leak in TLoU that would cause you to still run into issues regardless of maximum memory but 16 GB is the recommended minimum and is starting to be the minimum recommended for other newer games and that’s without having a chunk set aside for VRAM, so I’d bet that you’d see decent performance gains just by increasing the available RAM without it running at higher clocks.
The list of games that want combined RAM/VRAM in excess of 16GB is steadily increasing*, if there were an easy means of getting my Steam Deck to 32 GB, I’d jump on it. I haven’t had less than 32 GB in my desktop daily driver since 2017 and honestly the 64 GB I have now starts to feel anemic once you’ve got a VM or two running with Chrome and a game all having to contend for the same resources. Honestly, I’ve never felt like I had too much memory, but I have definitely felt it performance wise when I don’t have enough, where things start to stutter and the frame pacing goes all to hell while things are shuffled in and out of memory. Speed isn’t nothing, but there is definitely an increasing argument to be made for quantity as well.
*
- https://store.steampowered.com/app/1716740/STARFIELD/
- https://store.steampowered.com/app/990080/Hogwarts_Legacy/
- https://store.steampowered.com/app/1282100/Remnant_II/
- https://store.steampowered.com/app/1649240/Returnal/
- https://store.steampowered.com/app/1680880/Forspoken/
- https://store.steampowered.com/app/2124490/SILENT_HILL_2/
- https://store.steampowered.com/app/1888930/The_Last_of_Us_Part_I/
Not even sure why you guys are arguing. All of this can boil down to:
- More RAM is beneficial, especially when it’s shared by the CPU and GPU.
- The biggest bottleneck for most games on the Steam Deck is probably not RAM/VRAM, though.
- Faster memory will probably improve performance more than more memory.
- All of this is entirely dependent on the game or application you’re running.
But the biggest point should be:
- Good fucking luck desoldering and soldering BGA memory chips by hand.
It’s not that the RAM hungry ones don’t run, it’s that they fill up the RAM and create stuttering - sometimes even with a big page file. Emulators can do this, for example.
And more RAM is particularly good because the CPU and GPU pull from the same pool of RAM in the device.
I’m supposed to prove a negative? Do you want me to show a video of games crashing
Games that scale up with play (more players, growing environments, etc) tend to use more RAM over time, and especially such games with mods benefit from more RAM.
Anno, various building/construction games like Cities, Arm, DCS, Warzone whatever. Plenty of games will run with 8-16GB but run better with more. Yes, you can play the game with the “required” specs but that doesn’t mean they run great, and CPU/GPU isn’t always the bottleneck in larger environments.
I played through GoW on Deck but it definitely had a memory leak that would cause crashing after a bit. More RAM would have extended the play time despite that issue, and I’ve a couple other titles where the odd crash is likely for similar reasons.
Your being asked to prove a positive.
Your claim is games crash due to ram.
So give an example of a game that crashes due to ram and you are complete.
Proving a negative would be saying no games crash due to ram, and being asked to prove that.
The amount of bad logic in use by everyone in this post has me wondering how people even get to work in the mornings
a well modded cities skylines can take 64gb or more of ram.
I literally did give an example, so now you’re just being dickish.
GoW (God of War) had - possibly still has, I haven’t checked recently - a memory leak condition. Over time, it will start to stutter out and eventually freeze. TLOU apparently also has/had this issue, though I haven’t picked that one up yet myself.
More RAM extends the time one can play but in some cases may also get one past a “hump” to the point where it can do collection and reclaim RAM.
In the case of GoW it seems to be a VRAM issue, but since the Deck uses an APU both system and video memory are allocated from the same pool. That also means that one needs to consider VRAM usage overall in terms of performance, as a game that works well with 16GB on a desktop system with a dedicated GPU (that has dedicated memory) won’t actually have 16GB available on the Deck as some of that is allocated to the VRAM pool.
And no, your ask originally was that I prove a game “not running” (which is proving a negative, as the positive version would be “show that game X runs”) and then tying it back to RAM. To quote:
do us a favor and show me a game not running on the Steam Deck due to lack of RAM
UH, ACTHUALLGY 🤓☝️
Do you think faster RAM would have a bigger impact than an upgraded GPU?
Nope much better to spend 50€ on a slighty newer cpu/gpu that on a faster speed memory module
Can we go back to the good old days where our devices had openings for RAM and storage upgrades please?
Especially for things like this.
Since when did small handheld devices have openings for RAM and storage upgrades?
Laptops always used to. Even most of those don’t any more.
Apple are certainly the worst offender here (want 2TB storage in your iPad Pro, that’ll be an extra £1250 please), but they’re not alone.
Laptops aren’t handhelds, they’re laptops.
Did I say handhelds?
The person you replied to said “small handheld devices”, and I don’t think most people would put laptops in that category
I’d love a standardized tiny socket like the MMC modules or something alike. A DIMM socket would be far too large.
Even though upgrading RAM in a steam deck wouldn’t be that useful it increases the ability to repair it.
Yeah, we’d need some sort of modular RAM size that’s small. No idea why we have 2TB of lightning fast storage and it’s the size of a postage stamp, but the RAM sticks are still more or less the same clunky sizes we had 30 years ago.
I guess its because SSD storage wasn’t an option back then and the interface is newer. But since soldered RAM is more of a rilule these days we do need something new.
It’s because ram is even faster with lower latency.
Pcie4.0x4 nvme is 40Gbps (I presume you mean pcie4.0 which is the newest and greatest over pcie3.0).
And that’s if it can actually sustain that level of read/write consistently, and isn’t just dumping data into a buffer.DDR3 1333mhz is 80Gbps (which is 15 years old).
DDR4 2133 is 136Gbps.
These are just rough numbers. Actual throughput is going to depend on number of channels, mobo, CPU etc.
I just don’t think most / any connectors are going to be compatible with modern ddr speeds. Even doing the layout on these smd pads takes a lot of work to make it right. You’d be taking a major speed downgrade which would limit your performance way more than this ram amount upgrade overcomes.
Quick Edit: storage is another beast entirely where I agree with you completely. Looks like steam deck you can upgrade the ssd and it’s at least way easier than this. Comparable to a laptop.
Wouldn’t be a speed downgrade for the steamdeck, for future generarions I would agree. I think thickness is the primary factor.
Yeah I thought about this some more. I totally forgot that even on my PC I installed ram through a connector. So there is a capability, but my experience is just more in an embedded electronics place where it really isn’t standard just to save space and cost. We also theoretically know the requirements going in so leaving space to upgrade isn’t required like it is for a generic platform like a PC or steamdeck. I don’t think the typical DIMM connectors would work with the form factor, but a different connector could maybe do it. There could also possibly be reliability concerns with ram in a handheld around whatever movement the connector, is expected to deal with, but that couldn’t be overcome. So yeah it’s for sure possible but it would take some work.
I feel like a solution similar to m.2 could work, holding the module in place with a screw. I dont think the m.2 connector would suffice as it only has 67 pins and DIMMs have I think 288 pins, so that’s quite a difference. I do think SODIMM has less pins, but not much less, definitely not to the tune of less than a quarter as many.
Having recently looked inside my steam deck to upgrade the storage, I honestly think they would have had room for at least one SODIMM slot, but the tradeoff is increased thermals, more power draw, and probably some design constraints around the pcb leads possibly leading to increased overhead or latency. I agree that a new form factor would be best to address these issues. It would be cool if something similar to the SXM socket came out, having a pad of pins so you can increase the amount of pins while taking up the same space.
Apple Silicon has entered the chat.
“No.”
Sure, if you want your device to be half an inch thicker, and more expensive.
Steam deck is already a brick, would anyone notice?
I’d wager the same kind of people screaming “it should have been socketed” are the same people who would scream “why the fuck did they make this thing so thick?!”
The chips themselves are the most expensive parts usually, much more than a socket and additional daughterboard. And if they were all modular you can reuse those chips for other devices!
Also, even back in the chunky early 2000s IBM Thinkpad days I never really minded the size or weight, that’s just my own opinion though.
last i checked a thinkpad wasnt a handheld device, either.
This is awesome, but beyond my skill level.
Impressive!
If that’s real that’s one hell of a feat to pull off
I’m sure it is. People have done it with graphics cards. You basically drop 2GB modules in place of 1GB (or 4 instead of 2 or whatever).
ah hell don’t tell me this. this is my problem. i bought my current GPU without realising it doesn’t have enough VRAM to drive ray tracing at 4K but it’s fine for everything else at 4K.
If you don’t know what you’re doing and have the right tools, you will break your shit.
And no, I won’t tell you what they are, because if you can’t figure it out it’s a really bad idea (and also because I have no fucking clue, but no one need to know that part).
absolutely, i have an idea of how it’s done, i would need a lot more experience before i’d be confident trying anything like it though.
Absolutely insane. I love it.
I hope phone screen fixing guys are shopping malls will start doing this kind of ram upgrades soon
If they only replace screen there is a chance they will be able to do so, because modern iphone screens require a chip from the screen to be removed from the original and soldered in the new one.
We just got a BGA rework machine at work, and I could do this
![[MOD] SteamDeck upgrade to 32gb of ram](https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/4e4b508f-e6cf-45b3-b3cc-ff897cada107.jpeg){kind=link}