Once again ordinary people in the West are saved from affordable, low-pollution living, and Western companies are saved from having to compete.
That’s catchy, but not entirely true.
China heavily subsidizes EV manufacturers (and production in general), plus they have cheaper environmental and labour standards… it’s not like there’s a fair market EU companies can compete in without some sort of handicap.
PS: Yes, “western” countries have been playing along with China’s deliberate long term strategy with full awareness of where it would lead, but that’s another story that is both much older and has a much broader scope than the EV industry.
This is the market place, brah. If the US or EU want to keep up, they can subsidize EV manufacturing to the same degree. We are just too stuck on subsidizing O&G to realize that harvesting value from a dying industry is going to leave us out in the cold as the new technology matures.
Free market capitalism and what we operate under haven’t been the same thing for as long as I’ve been alive. What some may call “Communist China” is beating us at the game. Get on the bus or get run the fuck over.
If the US or EU want to keep up, they can sunbsidize EV manufacturing to the same degree
You can’t allow dumping-inducing subsidies without also allowing defensive tariffs, otherwise the richer and more authoritarian countries, which have greater capacity for subsidies and greater ability to concentrate them in specific sectors, will easily kill foreign competition and establish monopolies.
The marketplace brah is a place where, without regulations that maintain a degree of fairness, the rich kills the poor, competition dies off, and consumers are drained to their last cent.
Just think of it: competition is when different actors fight it off and it ends the moment one of the contenders wins.
If you want the fight to go on forever, you don’t want an unregulated market.This is the market place, brah.
…
Free market capitalism
then talk about subsidies or non capitalist country controlling the currency, markets, VCs, etc.
What does that even mean?
I did… that was the part about extracting value from a dying industry.
I feel like we would need to utterly destroy the working class to the point that cheap Chinese EVs would become expensive if we were to compete at the same level. I could be wrong, but how many of the chinese workers are driving brand new evs?
Western manufacturing tends to be much more automation heavy. Chinese manufactures don’t bother with buying a $100k machine that can make a car part when they can just hire 10 guys at $10k/yr to make that same part with a $50 drill press and some hand files.
It’s not that it all strictly balances out, but if we actually gave a shit we could potentially be cost competitive for a lot of price brackets, especially given the costs to move whole ass cars across the Pacific.
Bear in mind these sub $10k Chinese EVs are not something US consumers would really be interested in buying, they are basically tiny car shaped golf carts with extremely minimalist feature sets. Think ‘no audio system at’ all type interiors.
they can subsidize EV manufacturing to the same degree
Meaning that we would either have to increase tax rates or borrow more money? Wow, what a great solution.
Or not subsidize oil and gas to the tune of ~$20 billion/yr and corn at $2.2 billion/yr and redirect that towards EVs.
Yeah I find it a ridiculous parallel I recently saw an article that put a number on Chinese EV subsidies and it seemed extremely low compared to the barrels of money we’ve been giving the oil companies.
China heavily subsidizes EV manufacturers (and production in general), plus they have cheaper environmental and labour standards… it’s not like there’s a fair market EU companies can compete in without some sort of handicap.
Hah. Volkswagen is in trouble right now because they fucked up the transition to electric cars completly. What do you think will happen now? That’s right, we the (German) people will have to save them now, with our money. Basically the same shit as a subsidy, just later in the process. Kinda like what the Chinese do, just the really stupid way.
Oh, and of course, it will be everybody’s fault but their own.
I wish they had an eGolf comparable to the Bolt and the Leaf.
China heavily subsidizes EV manufacturers (and production in general)
And that’s a bad thing? Any sensible government is going to subsidise renewable energy and electric vehicles. It makes both economic and environmental sense. Anyone not doing this is an idiot and a climate terrorist.
Subsidizing sales of EVs (ie. I pay for my neighbor’s new EV because I want cleaner air) does make environmental sense.
Subsidizing production does not have the same positive environmental impact, mainly because factories in China pollute more than factories, say, in the EU (due to different environmental laws), but also because moving finished products from China to the “west” obviously pollutes more than moving just those components that would need to be sourced from China anyways (eg. batteries).
As for the “makes economic sense” part… IDK: I guess that mainly depend on your political stance.
Personally, I don’t like that both sales and production subsidies have the effect of moving money from the poor to the rich, but other people may focus on different effects (eg. more production = more jobs) and support subsides.
In case you wonder: my take is that, instead of incentivizing adoption and production of EVs, one should disincentivize internal combustion vehicles by adding taxes to them (which, in a sense, aren’t really taxes but just charging for the very real environmental costs society as a whole will have to pay for your shiny SUV).Anyone not doing this is an idiot and a climate terrorist.
You should really think twice before spewing judgements… and also avoid misusing words like “terrorist” because, when misused this way, it only conveys that you don’t like someone, dulling your message instead of strengthening it.
Subsidizing production does not … from China anyways (eg. batteries).
I’m asking why the EU isn’t subsudising their domestic EV industry and starting a competition in electric propulsion technology. That would benefit everyone, except maybe the oil lobby.
one should disincentivize internal combustion vehicles by adding taxes to them
Why not both? And preferrably better subsidies for public transport / cycles / footpaths, etc.
avoid misusing words like “terrorist” because, when misused this way
If killing a handful of people is terrorism, what would you call trying to kill the entire human race (along with thousands of random other species)? ‘Terrorist’ is, if anything, too mild a word to describe such filth.
You cherry picked his argument and left out the rest where he states China’s as cheaper standards of environmental “friendliness”
Because (1) lithium contamination is a much, much, smaller problem than climate change and (2) we shouldn’t let perfect be the enemy of good. Of course, if the EU is combining taxes on EV import with an equivalent investment in public transport or cycling / walking infrastructure, I wouldn’t be complaining.
It is massively clownish though because as the barrier to entry goes up higher everyone will just switch to micromobility which is built mostly by the Chinese
is this the famous “invisible hand of the market”?
Is your argument pro market regulation or against market regulation or just there to stir up shit?
The EU is a heavily regulated market economy. Broadly that creates better outcomes and higher levels of happiness for its citizens.
Absolutely
Competition is good! Unless it makes shareholders sad.
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Slave labor is a system in which a person is bought sold and indentured to a master for a substantial duration, often life. Their labor is coerced as property of that master.
That is not how China produces cars. They use highly automated systems and paid workers like everywhere else. While Chinese workers are paid less due to the forces of unequal exchange (a system imposed by the US) and an export economy (a system usually imposed by the US but more of a 4D chess move by China to develop productive forces, with the US gladly taking the deal for exploitation), that is not really why the cars are so much cheaper. It is because China has highly concentrated industry and a much less financialized system.
Speaking about “fair” is amazing in this context. The US is simply trying to protect domestic monopsony industry and to damage Chinese industry. This is a jingoistic and corporate policy.
Were talking about labour laws in the EU, not the US
My not American wage has me with less and less buying power with each passing year.
Do you loose all your savings and fall into years of debt if you have to spend a week in the hospital?
No but that’s also not the point being made here lol
Its relevant. Having reduced buying power yet not risking loosing all of your buying power for the rest of your life is generally preferred.
Most people don’t realize how terrible it is in the US. Lots of migrants to the US searching for better pay, but they don’t realize how miserable life in the US is because most of their paycheck gets eaten by rent, transportation to work, healthcare, etc. And as soon as they manage to save anything, it all gets wiped out by a single hospital visit.
I don’t think Hollywood (how most people lean about the US) does a good job conveying how most people live in poverty in the US, how miserable they are, and how many of us kill ourselves because of the conditions.
That’s true but the logic applies. The EU is part of the imperial core that eats from that trough and in turn supports its maintainer. It is simply following the US’ lead.
Labor conditions in the EU are better than in the US and better than in China
Depends on which part of the EU you are in. There is a reason the poor of Poland move to places like the UK.
Though this is neither here nor there as the original allegation was slave labor, which is simply a lie.
Chattel slavery is different than indentured servitude. There is no ownership of the indentured servant, but they are forced to work against their will. This is the slavery found in Xinjiang, as well as the US penal system.
I didn’t mention chattel slavery or indentured servitude. There have been slave economies outside the American colonies / the United States.
There is no evidence of slavery in Xinjiang, though there is a network of propagandists tied to Adrian Zenz, the US State Department, and the Australian equivalent who make dubious claims.
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Already responded to this one comment over.
Except it’s not fair wages though and it’s getting worse not better.
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They can’t form new trade unions because everyone already has to join a registered trade union.
And that trade Union serves the interests of capital. Try to form your own that fights for the workers, and you’ll get locked up. Its literally illegal.
Source?
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Politicians be like
Yay, no punishment for the european brands. What they were doing, slept?
Germany is upset about this because they sell cars to China. This will probable create Chinese counter tariffs on European cars.
because they sell cars to China
For how much longer? Can German cars even still compete with the Chinese, or has that ship sailed already? Come, buy the best engineering of yesteryear! Yay!
Germany oligarchs are imbiciles who cornrred German economy into being a Russian pappet…
When Merkel was advised about these risks by us and Poland, we were mocked within Germany is “old idiots”
Now these same elites are hoping Ukraine shot blows over so they can go back to sucking Putin’s dick for gas.
Germany was so unreliable that US had to blow that fucking pipeline to send a msg to the German nazi napo baby regime.
Can’t make this shit up… European geopolitics are still as clown as ever.
Dead Ukrainians is a small price to pay for cheap gas!
Russian gas was a cheap way for Germany to produce. The short term economic effects were more important to Merkels electability than any long term plans.
When it comes to gas, Russia never shut off the tap. Instead it was America who blew up the Nordstream energy supply to garner support for a wider war. But now China is producing on cheap Russian gas
At least Germany appears to heavily invest in green energy since Norstream blew up. Bless the sun for shining everywhere.
We did not blow up nordstream.
If we had 1/10th of those balls the world wouldn’t be in this shape, I wish to God we had.
Germany is in for 2 lost decades, shutting down nuclear was a mistake, but energy isn’t the only issue, Germany needs more workers or they need to fully commit to automation, which they haven’t quite yet.
China is now crippled with Russia as an ally. That’s about the best strategic success you can expect in IR, take the win.
The propaganda went really hard for a few years. But everything now points to the CIA.
https://www.ft.com/content/d60ae893-c251-4693-ac75-4133bb05b2d1
And more recenly
Your second link agrees with me, it was Ukraine. The mad fuckers pulled it off, we might have helped but even that is more than I’d imagine, our administration is timid AF when it comes to Ukraine and any kind of direct or even covert action.
I get why you’d be furious, but they were defending their homeland, and let’s be honest, yours too, if Ukraine had fallen Putin and Xi would have felt they could ask for a lot and we know how that road goes.
I fully support Ukrainian independence but it is being used as a proxy war between the US and Russia right now. They went from a Russian dictator in 2014 to Zelensky now.
America vetoeing the 2022 peace talks to send more Ukrainians into the meat grinder tells it all. At some point a diplomatic solution must be reached. Support is already fading and the only thing this prolonged war has achieved is the death of more Ukrainians and Russians (and profits for Raytheon)
Creating an economic incentive is known for sane country leaders to hesitate to attack their business partner. Sadly Putin isn’t sane.
I assume this doesn’t apply to Chinese parts used to manufacturer electric cars in the EU
@geneva_convenience It’s exactly the same that also happened several years ago between the US and the EU concerning civil planes. Here Boeing and Airbus compete against each other - and the US had the assumption, that the EU subsidized Airbus so that Boeing couldn’t compete. Because of that the US thought about tariffs that would have countered this.
oh yeah, the land of “free market” …
PS: Stolen land
Has the EU “champoined” free markets? I assumed that was more of a US buxzword.
The European commision sure wanted TTIP to happen, so there’s that.
Great news for EU auto workers!
Ofc. Electric cars are here to save the auto industry, not your health, safety, neighborhood, sustainability, kids, etc. #bancars
This will have the effect of people buying far fewer cars because the options are fewer and far between then moving to micromobility.
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