The recent post about what people are using for webmail got me thinking about a perhaps irrational policy I have with my own self-hosted software: I don’t install anything written in PHP, because I have this vague notion that PHP software is often insecure. I think I probably got this idea because years ago I saw all the vulnerabilities in PHP webmail clients and PHP software like Wordpress and decided that it was the language’s fault—or at least a contributing factor.
Maybe this isn’t fair. Maybe PHP is just more accessible to new devs and so they’re more likely to gravitate to it and make security mistakes. Maybe my perception isn’t even accurate, and webmail / blog software written in other languages is just as bad—but PHP gets all the the negative attention because it’s so prevalent for web apps. Maybe my policy was a good idea, years ago, but now it’s just out of date.
To be clear, I’m not trying to stoke the flames of a language holy war here or anything. I’m honestly asking: Is it maybe time to revisit my anti-PHP policy? I’m looking longingly at some federated software like Pixelfed and wondering if maybe I’m just being a little too close-minded.
So I’m interested in your own experiences and polices here. Where do you draw the security line for what you will or won’t host, and what made you make that choice?
I’m a full time senior PHP/JS developer.
PHP has a bad rap because of a few factors.
1, as you said, it’s accessible. It’s a very easy language to learn with a simple syntax and a simple tool chain. So often, it’s a dev’s first language. PHP holds your hand a little bit, but for the most part, security is on the developer, and when a dev doesn’t know any better, bad practices like interpolating values directly into your sql query seem like an easy way to get the job done, but at the hidden cost of opening up SQL injection vulnerabilities. But I’ve seen the same thing happen in Python code, so that’s not really a PHP problem so much as an education problem.
2, earlier versions of PHP were, in a word, shit. They were rife with inconsistencies, poor structure, half-baked features, and it all ran like dogshit. Even today, there’s still some contention in the PHP world about whether to fix the inconsistencies or not, because so much legacy code would fall apart if they did. PHP <= 4 was a goddamned dumpster fire. 5 was MARGINALLY better and brought in proper OOP. 6 literally didn’t exist for various reasons. 7 was actually getting pretty good, now with optional static typing. 8 is BANGIN’. It’s fast, easy to work with, has a great feature set, and a huge community.
3, it’s a big player. When you’re a huge player, you’re also a huge target. Wordpress is one of the most prolific web apps in existence, and it’s PHP based. Being huge, many more people are writing (shit) code for it, and many more (shit) people are trying to break it. Of course software that’s run on more servers is gonna be attacked more. It’s just numbers.
TBH, today, working in both languages extensively, I’d gladly take a PHP based web app over a NodeJS based web app. Don’t get me wrong, I love node for what it is and the paycheck I get, but JS is a goddamned dumpster fire of a half-baked language.
So tldr, don’t fear the PHP. As long as your software was written by somebody who knows their aaS from a hole in the ground, you’ll be fine.
The fact that people still stuck talking about baggages of PHP 4/5, which was released in 2000, as if they’re still valid today is hilarious to me.
Lol, I really appreciate your thoughts! These are exactly the sort of insights I came here for. I hope this is useful to others too who may be wondering about the same thing.
I don’t think programming language is a good metric for security. I assume everything I host has issues, and then try to mitigate from there.
IMHO, a better approach is to vet the project beforehand, looking at whether it is still actively maintained. I usually use things like commits, issues, etc to try and gauge whether a piece of software is actively maintained so that when an issue arises, it can be fixed.
You can mitigate much of the risk by using some basic best practices, like isolating all apps from each other (using docker, for example), using a reverse proxy, tools like fail2ban or a web application firewall, using proper database permissions for each app, etc
What I also do is add another layer by making certain applications accessible only over vpn. That won’t work for some tools, obviously, but also reduces the risk for tools you are only using yourself.
Being worried about software written in PHP is like being worried about buildings built with Ryobi tools.
I wrote my personal website in PHP, and I’m pretty happy with the security I’ve got going on. I’m not an expert, but I paid close attention to best practices to avoid pitfalls like SQL injection. My instinct is that it’s certainly easy to code insecure applications in PHP (and probably many other languages as well), but the language does provide means by which to code safely.
Bad applications full of security flaws can be written in basically every language.
The thing with PHP is there’s still extremely old apps that just haven’t been updated to modern standards, because PHP itself is much older and thus predates more modern JavaScript/Ruby/Python apps. Wordpress in particular hasn’t changed all that much, and insists on using a wildly outdated database layer on the name of remaining compatible with old plugins, because those plugins is what people turn to Wordpress for.
As with any app you don’t completely trust, the solution is to restrict what they can do as much as possible. Run with minimum privileges, sandbox it in a container, whatever is needed.
Security flaws are on the programmer, not the programming language. PHP is easy to learn and has many built in functions useful for web developing, but if the programmer doesn’t know anything about security and ships trash code it’s only his fault, this is why Laravel is so popular
