• AFK BRB Chocolate@lemmy.world
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    5 months ago

    I’m a flaming liberal, but I’m honestly revolted that, as I write this, your comment has a bunch of upvotes and no downvotes.

    • CreativeShotgun@lemmy.world
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      5 months ago

      This man wants to do things that will make me and many people i love dead or suffering. How do you not understand how we could feel this way?

      • SorteKanin@feddit.dk
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        5 months ago

        Because if you start justifying these kinds of things, they will eventually be turned against you and next you know it, your own political representative is being shot at because their opponent’s supporters are feeling threatened just as you are (whether they are truly justified in feeling threatened or not, doesn’t matter).

        Democracy does not work with violence.

        EDIT: I’m really curious about the downvoters: do you really think murdering your political opponents is justified? The goal is to vote out the fascists, not become fascists.

        • Tangentism@lemmy.ml
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          5 months ago

          Because if you start justifying these kinds of things…

          Republicans have already been justifying it. It was only days ago that a Republican said [paraphrasing] “theres a revolution already going on and it will be bloodless if the left doesnt interfere”.

          Republicans have already been justifying the death of BIPoC, trans kids, the queer community, Palestinians and anyone who opposes their genocide… the list goes on. And its mealy mouthed liberals that always say shit like “oh but we shouldn’t start justifying using violence, even in defence” from their positions of privilege.

          WTF do you think is going to happen after November, whether Trump wins or not? They have been laying out the justification for using violence for 4 fucking years and you’ve slept through it, hoping its just some nightmare you’ll wake up from.

          Democracy does not work with violence.

          How do you think your form of ‘democracy’ was achieved? You ballot box is awash with so much fucking blood that you would piss your pants if you had a tiny inkling. And most of it is from those who your country mercilessly crushed for you to have it. You dont live in a democracy. You live in a military/prison/pharma industrial corporatist state that masquerades in a trenchcoat as a democratic Republic

          • SorteKanin@feddit.dk
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            5 months ago

            I’m not sure what you’re saying - since they are justifying violence, you should too? That doesn’t seem sustainable, unless your goal is a civil war.

            EDIT for your edit: I am not from the US so I’m not sleeping through anything, I’m just watching from the sidelines. My form of democracy was actually introduced quite peacefully, all things considered. But that’s neither here nor there.

            • BlitzoTheOisSilent@lemmy.world
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              5 months ago

              Let’s say you’re in school, and you’re assigned a lab partner and told the requirements of your project and that you need to compromise both individual’s ideas to make it happen.

              Every time you try to make a suggestion, they immediately say no and suggest something that isn’t even graded for the project, and refuses to budge until you compromise. When you don’t compromise, they threaten to tell the teacher that you’re not compromising. As you try to hold your ground trying to get a good grade for both of you, they just keep doing whatever they want and making more threats to you: they’ll take your lunch money, they’ll beat you up after school, they’ll pop your bike tires, etc.

              When you tell the teacher, they tell you to stop overreacting and you need to learn to work with others. After school, your science partner punches you and says you better agree to XYZ tomorrow. You tell the teacher they hit you, and you’re told you need to stop exaggerating and learn to compromise and work together. Every day that week, your science partner makes good on each threat after school, and every day you tell your teacher, they tell you to stop exaggerating and learn to play nice.

              On the last day, you punch the kid back, really hit him, break his nose kind of punch. And you’re punished: the teacher says you shouldn’t have resorted to violence, your partner says they were the true victim in the project arrangement, you get a failing grade because everything you compromised on didn’t meet the requirements, but your science partner still got an A and wasn’t punished for anything he did all week because “the rules don’t apply to them the same way, they’re troubled/have a lot going on at home/whatever excuse.”

              That’s the current state of US politics: Republicans are justified in any and everything they do because they’re “special,” but Democrats have to follow all of the rules, all of the time, even when the other side of the aisle refuses to even listen to them or the centuries/decades of legal precedent. And they, the Republicans, still win because that’s just how the fucking system works.

            • Urist@lemmy.ml
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              5 months ago

              Any bloodless revolution is done through an implicit threat of violence. It is just the losing side being smart about how they lose.

              I tillegg om du er dansk, vil eg påpeike at Danmark mista eineveldet sitt då dei tapte Napoleonskrigane i 1814, som også var grunnlaget for Noreg sin uavhengigheit og demokratiske grunnlov.

          • OccamsRazer@lemmy.world
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            5 months ago

            Dude, who are the ones actually shooting at people? You so worried about what might happen that you can’t see what’s going on right in front of you.

                • Tangentism@lemmy.ml
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                  5 months ago

                  Anyone that’s said it was a set up has been countered with arguments that to just nick someone ear is statistically impossible but they all treat it that trump is the brains behind the operation.

                  Now we all know that generally, he’s as dumb as a bag of hammers and has cognitive issues (seems to be a second election based on old men with melting brains) so the real power lies behind the throne.

                  They might have taken the decision to set up a patsy & if he succeeds, ride the sympathy & somehow load all the blame onto Biden. If he doesn’t, as we’re seeing, trump rides the sympathy wave into the white house.

                  Another possible theory is that the kid appeared in a black rock commercial a few years ago and as BR have the contract to rebuild in Ukraine, that would be under threat if trump wins (he will pretty much throw them under the bus & let the reaction be his reason to split NATO). BRs main guys brother is Bidens right hand man. Similar to Haliburton with Iraq & it’s former CEO being Bush jnrs VP.

                  To see such massive laxes in Trumps security and people pointing out the shooter to police at least 3 minutes before he fired, raises more questions and leaves it wide open to wild theories.

                  One thing for definite though: Biden will absolutely lose the election now.

          • SorteKanin@feddit.dk
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            5 months ago

            I don’t think that’s true. Obviously you need elections that can be trusted (and despite everything I don’t think elections results are being tampered with too significantly) but if there are bad faith actors (like Trump) then just… Get people not to vote for such an actor. Should be easy enough seeing as they’re a bad faith actor right?

            Well no, because people are poorly educated or brainwashed or scared or bigoted or hateful or afraid or all the other reasons that people in the US might vote for Trump. The problem is not Trump, the problem is the people voting for him. That’s also why shooting him is a bad idea, it only entrenches his supporters even further (aside from the fact that shooting anyone is generally a bad idea).

            Democracy requires nonviolence and an educated and informed population. The US fails on both accounts.

        • ComradeSharkfucker@lemmy.ml
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          5 months ago

          Our “democracy” IS violent, it just isn’t the ruling class experiencing the violence. Every day our society is upheld by violence. Violence over seas (231 years of war, support of genocide, coups, and interventions) and violence at home in the form of an increasingly more powerful police state.

          This is just the direct forms of oppression like guns, bombs and jackbooted thugs. There are also sanctions that starve people and IMF loans that impoverish people. These all uphold our standards of living, the united states cannot exist with the impoverishment and exploitation of others.

        • theilleist@lemmy.ml
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          5 months ago

          Political violence ≠ fascism. Violence is what people turn to when they can’t achieve what they need by merely talking and voting. Cf. every revolution, ever. Including the American one.

          • SorteKanin@feddit.dk
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            5 months ago

            Violence is what people turn to when they can’t achieve what they need by merely talking and voting.

            The fact that this is the state of things is the bigger problem. That’s the problem that needs to be fixed and sorry, but violence is not the solution to that, it only makes things even worse.

            • OurToothbrush@lemmy.mlM
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              5 months ago

              Lol that minimizes what fascism actually is. Assassinations have happened throughout history, including before Capitalism and before the crisis within Capitalism that created fascism.

              • SorteKanin@feddit.dk
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                5 months ago

                Lol

                That “lol” is quite unnecessary. There is no need to ridicule me. I would expect better from a mod of a community like this.

                minimizes what fascism actually is

                I didn’t say that is all fascism is, just that it is a tactic within fascism. It can be a part of it. But anyway I don’t want to argue what is and isn’t fascism, my point is just that political violence and murdering your political opponents does not work with democracy and shouldn’t ever be hoped for or wanted, even if it is your political opponent being targeted. I want Trump gone as much as the next guy on the fediverse but I don’t want him killed.

                • OurToothbrush@lemmy.mlM
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                  5 months ago

                  That “lol” is quite unnecessary. There is no need to ridicule me. I would expect better from a mod of a community like this.

                  I dont need to, but I felt like it. I chose restraint and went with “lol” instead of really getting into how ridiculous and chauvinist of an opinion it is.

                  I didn’t say that is all fascism is, just that it is a tactic within fascism

                  You said this: “Murdering your political opponents is a fascist tactic.”

                  my point is just that political violence and murdering your political opponents does not work with democracy

                  I mean the Soviets murdered the hell out of nazis, so there is a counterexample for you. The cubans also murdered the hell out of high level regime collaborators when batista was overthrown. Another counterexample. I’m not advocating for murder within our political system but like, you’re not correct.

      • Bobr@lemmy.libertarianfellowship.org
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        5 months ago

        The other man already does, for two years, things that made hundreds of thousands people die, get wounded, suffer, etc.
        You are asking how people do not understand that you want Trump to be dead because he might hurt people you love, surely with your empathy skills you will be able to understand how people might hate Biden (and perhaps even want to see him dead as well) for what he did (and continues doing)?
        Or is it only sad when the people you love are suffering? The other people do matter, right?

      • AFK BRB Chocolate@lemmy.world
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        5 months ago

        How you could hate him? I understand. I have a nonbinary kid, and I’m against what he stands for. But advocating for political assassination is just wrong. We don’t punish people for crimes they haven’t yet committed, and we don’t support vigilantism.

        We need to vote out fascist Republicans, not kill them.

      • wizardbeard@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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        5 months ago

        This man wants to do things that will make me and many people i love dead or suffering.

        I keep seeing this repeated. What stopped him his first term and where are the corpses of the dead he is responsible for? Legitimately, link me to shit.

        Likewise, if his side really were going for an overthrow of the government with the invasion of the senate building, why were there not more instances of gun violence? The republicans are more likely to own guns right? If they really wanted to overthrow shit, why didn’t they come strapped? If they came strapped, why was the only police death from a thrown fire extinguisher causing a brain bleed that killed the victim later that night?

        There’s shit that doesn’t add up all over the place, and it bothers me that no one discusses it because they seem afraid to touch anything that might challenge the narrative of Trump’s terribleness and Biden needing to be infallible to win. Trump is more than reprehensible enough without hyperbole.

        • Not_mikey@slrpnk.net
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          5 months ago

          Not his first term but Trump seems ready to let Israel really take its gloves off and probably let the war expand into Lebanon and maybe Iran. Biden hasn’t really done shit but at least Israel seems somewhat afraid he might pull funding enough not to expand the war too much, trump will probably just give them a blank cheque.

        • pingveno@lemmy.ml
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          5 months ago

          If they really wanted to overthrow shit, why didn’t they come strapped?

          Multiple people had firearms at the 1/6 coup attempt, this is well documented. I’m not sure why they never shot anyone, but it wasn’t for lack of firearms.

    • ComradeSharkfucker@lemmy.ml
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      5 months ago

      Do you not realize how terrible it is that he missed? You of all people as a “flaming liberal” should be the most angry. This essentially secures trumps presidency, its the best thing that could have happened to his campaign.

      • AFK BRB Chocolate@lemmy.world
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        5 months ago

        First of all, that’s bullshit. As I said in another thread:

        The electorate is viscerally polarized, and very few people are on the fence about who to vote for - maybe some undecided about whether they’ll vote at all. I can’t imagine there are many people who are going to switch from Biden to Trump because of this, or who will even go from undecided to Trump. It makes no sense.

        Second, my political activism stops short of murder. Apparently that doesn’t go far enough for you. That doesn’t make me a troll.

        • ComradeSharkfucker@lemmy.ml
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          5 months ago

          Dont get me wrong, assassinations are stupid and rarely accomplish much of value. No single human is responsible for the state of our society, it is much more institutional than that. Only a dismantling of the current systems could actually inact change. HOWEVER, if trump was murdered I would gloat and I feel no shame in that.

          Also them missing is gonna make MAGA people really annoying for a while

    • PolandIsAStateOfMind@lemmy.ml
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      5 months ago

      You libs drone all the time in every media how the guy is an enemy of democracy, second coming of Hitler and needs to be stopped for any price. Yet you are “revolted” when someone taken it seriously.

      • SorteKanin@feddit.dk
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        5 months ago

        The problem is not Trump, the problem is the people voting for him. Trump should be stopped through educated and informed voting, that’s how democracy works.

        Unfortunately the US is not known for its education and good unbiased information. But that is the underlying problem that needs to be fixed, and shooting Trump does nothing to fix that and will only serve to replace Trump with someone equally bad (or even worse).

        • krolden@lemmy.ml
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          5 months ago

          Are you saying people should start shooting trump voters instead of trump?

          • SorteKanin@feddit.dk
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            5 months ago

            What a way to deliberately misread what I am saying. Obviously not and I won’t waste time on such a purposeful bad faith reading of what I said.

      • P1r4nha@feddit.de
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        5 months ago

        Democracy needs to be saved through democratic processes, not a lawless assassination attempt, otherwise it would be disingenious to want to protect it and its values.

        • PolandIsAStateOfMind@lemmy.ml
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          5 months ago

          I didn’t even suggested you people should murder him*, just pointed how calling him enemy of democracy, second coming of Hitler and constantly droning about having to stop him is a call for stochastic terrorism, but you clearly understood it like this so the feedback checks out.

          Also lmao fucking hell you call US president election mechanism “democratic”? And i won’t comment on US “democratic values”.

          Wait you aren’t even Usian lmao you absolute clown.

          *FYI Marxists-Leninists usually think political assassinations are futile adventurism, since it won’t change the conditions that created people like Trump. Which won’t mean we wouln’t be glad if some ghoul get offed.

          • P1r4nha@feddit.de
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            5 months ago

            Haven’t seen any prominent lib even use violent rhethoric in connection with pointing out Trump’s dangerous plans for his second term, so I was surprised you bring up stochastic terrorism. The fact that Democrats are running a horrible candidate against him just shows that they don’t take this seriously at all. Maybe that’s what you tried to say in your first message.

            I agree that democratic processes have little to do with US politics these days, but are you suggesting you can promote democratic values with anything outside living them (not that US politician do that, but in principle).

            And it shouldn’t matter where I’m from. The disaster that is the US empires fall is of global interest.

            • PolandIsAStateOfMind@lemmy.ml
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              5 months ago

              Haven’t seen any prominent lib even use violent rhethoric in connection with pointing out Trump’s dangerous plans for his second term, so I was surprised you bring up stochastic terrorism.

              That’s precisely how stochastic terrorism works, the big wigs never straight up call for it to have their hands clean just in case, for that they have their tabloids, their agitators, their media heads, their internet trolls. And btw Biden did said they need to put Trump into the bullseye (though he most likely didn’t meant it literally, but on the other hand he promised to get rid of Nordstream back in the day and it happened).

              I agree that democratic processes have little to do with US politics these days, but are you suggesting you can promote democratic values with anything outside living them (not that US politician do that, but in principle).

              In principle i do but i don’t see liberal democracy as desirable version of it due to it being in service of the small minority of capitalists and their stooges exploiting workers, and as such the system works exactly according to its values. I just think those real values behind that system are abhorrent.

              And it shouldn’t matter where I’m from. The disaster that is the US empires fall is of global interest.

              What SUPAVILLAIN said. If you’re not part of the abovementioned minority or their stooge you should be dearly interested in end of the US empire.