And by trans rights they mean “we don’t wanna be fucking murdered for being trans”
My hot take: I find transgenderism to be weird. I don’t get it. It weirds me out. I suspect I’m incapable of understanding.
Here’s the thing though: it doesn’t matter what I think. None of my fucking business. They can do what they want. Why is this a national issue?!? I find it weird, yes, but building a political ideology around hating them for it, that’s WAY weirder. And more dangerous.
Americans love freedom right? I’m having trouble thinking of anything more free than waking up a man and going to sleep a woman. Yes, I find it odd. But I’ll fight to the death their right to practice their flavor of odd.
I’m trans and asexual. It would be insane for me to take a stance against people having sex. I don’t enjoy it and the machinations surrounding it confuses me. However, I don’t care that people have sex even though I don’t understand it.
Turns out a lot of Americans don’t love freedom. They love only their freedom, which is corrupted in my opinion.
Eta: “I’m having trouble thinking of anything more free than waking up a man and going to sleep a woman.”
I didn’t read this correctly the first time and now I’m moved. That happened to me, it did feel like I was set free.
as a trans person thank you for this :)
Nailed it.
I’m transgender and I find transgenderism weird.
I totally agree, I just don’t think that healthcare should pay for body modification. More accurately, if people want insurance that covers those costs, it shouldn’t be subsidized be people who don’t wish to subsidize it.
I’d rather have healthcare cut out all of the wasted excess fees and corporate fat than nitpick who gets what kind of care, but that’s just my 2c
One side wants basic human rights. The other side wants you to die. We are not the same.
Ta fuck are you talking about?
It’s a reference to the comic that this comment section is attached to
What are YOU talking about?
Lick those boots Maga
TIL wanting basic human rights is “aggressive”. Ridiculously weak attempt at rage baiting.
Imagine equating the desire for human rights to murder.
Very imperialist for sure. The East India Trading Company and United Fruit Company would be proud.
It’s the ol’ white moderate line of thinking.
Seems to have worked sadly, this post ahould have been buried long long ago
Edit: Did not understand that op is sarcastic
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You either support the hate, vitriol and murder against trans people, or you don’t. There is no middle ground.
The idea that demanding trans people be treated with the dignity and respect other classes of people expect as being “aggressive” is just a pathetic way to try to deflect from their desire to support the side they know they cannot morally defend. It allows them to pretend “both sides” are at fault in order to deflect for the hate they functionally support. Only a stark moron could look at the current events relative to the treatment of trans people and think they are somehow demanding greater rights than the rest of us have.
Just another flavor of the “both sides” bullshit that has permeated politics; but only one side has abandoned democracy and staged an insurrection while collectively acting like the victims in the aftermath.
If you are a “centrist” and this seems like an appealing position to support, maybe you should take a long, long look in the mirror.
The fact that so many “centrists” have commented on this post to espouse their point of view in long diatribes of meaningless dribble has solidified my thinking on centrists.
Centrists are cluelessly dumb.
I always considered myself a centrist… but it was more about how I definitely believe the government should be involved in certain things/industries (prisons, healthcare, comprehensive social programs that boost up the worst-off in our society so they can actually have opportunities, etc) and not in other things (a “free market” that exists under strong, fair, and reasonable regulations that promote competition, discourage monopolization, and provide consumer and environmental protections, individual liberties like identity and community and sexual orientation, how people raise their kids (within reason, of course), etc)…
I don’t know what the fuck these people actually are. Right-leaning useful idiots who are too lazy to have an actual opinion so they just both-sides everything and get to feel smug about it. It’s easier than reading, I guess?
It sure feels like it comes from a position of privilege where their lives are fine under the status quo so anyone else’s struggle is not their problem.
Based on what you say here, you’re more left and most closely align as a Social Democrat.
I mean yeah, here in the US. Overton window’s all fucky over here.
EDIT: I should also probably add that there are probably more nuanced parts of my views that might stick me a little more in the centrist camp, like how the things I mentioned should be implemented, managed, how much reach they should have, whatever. Regardless, I do definitely vibe harder with Social Dems over here than any other ideological stripe.
Shit I label myself a progressive pretty far left as a social democrat myself, which is definitely further left than the mainstream Democratic party who in my view has only marginally shifted center-left in the past few years. Though even in Germany the Social Democratic Party is considered center-left.
Center-left is where I’d primarily place myself, for sure (with the occasional excursion into the center or even center-right, which is why I label myself a “centrist”).
It sucks so badly that there are very real, very present issues that can be debated by sensible people but that debate isn’t happening. Everything has devolved into surface-level culture war horseshit. I think the Right is just mad that they “lost” the culture wars which can be evidenced by who massive corporations - who generally don’t actually give a fuck about social justice - are pandering to. The problem is that they’re just lashing out and taking it out on everyone. Culture war stuff just shuts the conversation down and you never end up going beneath the surface to tackle real topics. You either end up squabbling over petty shit or semantics or you just leave. Nuance and context are just fucking absent, replace by strict black-and-white ideological stances.
I really do believe that conservative thought has a place and function in society. In my eyes, it’s there to temper unchecked change and keep things stable. You will never avoid change outright, but having it happen too quickly or wildly can leave people disillusioned. Unfortunately, if you left it up to some of these people, they’d drag us back to the 1950s… or worse.
Hey man, great comment and there’s a lot I agree with here — for starters, I’ve made the same argument regarding corporations and how they have now began catering to the left in terms of social issues.
I think that conservatism is an inherent part of society that should come based largely (albeit not exclusively) by age. The vast majority of this wealth comes from frankly rich old white fucks. In a functioning, equitable society, their voices would be relatively muted or at least in proportion to their population. But the Boomer and Silent generations were so massive they lopsided society. This made worse by the fact that we continue to elect increasingly older people who are out of touch with modern living and frankly declined in terms of cognitive capacity. But no. Instead, they have massive wealth and megaphones pushing their archaic messages that is even filtering down into younger generations.
So this, combined with the fact that while we have age minimums for representing our country, we don’t have age maximums — both contribute heavily to our current problems and the stranglehold conservatism has had on America. The only reason things have changed remotely is thanks to the internet, honestly.
Right on, I can’t disagree. I’m very much for age limits and possibly term limits to some degree, although I think there are decent arguments for and against the latter. I’m also open to ranked choice voting and it’s cousins, but I need more time to read up about all of that before I can say I have a substantive opinion on the subject.
What you described is exactly the scary lack of ideological balance that I see and am low-key kind of freaked out by. Even if the boomers are starting to decline in number, look at how they were able to whip up just enough of the younger voting-age generations to cause problems. Will that stuff persevere in their absence? I’m under the impression that as time goes on, younger generations tend to hold a more left-leaning streak for longer.
On the other hand, sometimes it almost feels like mainstreamed bigotry and racism and all that trash is kind of gasping it’s last desperate breaths, like it’s ok the cusp of crawling back under rocks and into the shadows. It feels like there’s a lot of thrashing going on in that corner lately. On a societal scale, though, that could take years or even a couple of decades… Plenty of time for another revival to get it back on its feet again.
Centrism being villified in America is really weird, as that is explicitly championing extremism over moderation.
Leaping so hard onto one side that you cannot tolerate anyone’s toe out of line, the party line must be upheld at all costs, is exactly the same kind of extremist shit we go after the right for. Just be better. It’s easy to get caught up into the “us vs them”, “black vs white”, “red vs blue” thing, but it’s really not that simple.
The example above is a strawman. I can do it too. One side says “kill all minorities”, and the other side says “all minorities should become the new upper class of society.” Neither side is actually pushing for either of those things, and we’ve turned real issues into disconnected make believe.
You’re simplifying the problem to the point where you don’t even have to think about it or consider a single argument. It’s much easier if you make up some extremist shit and then say anything and everything is justified in opposition of that extreme.
Also when a minority on one side says extremist stuff that shouldn’t be used as a blanket opinion for everyone not on your side.
Centrism being villified in America is really weird, as that is explicitly championing extremism over moderation.
When the center lies between two economic right wing parties. As it does in the united States. It would be weirder of it wasn’t. It’s a false center.
When the status quo is terrible, extremism is the only valid path.
They put an incredible amount of effort into creating excuses for not having to take a stance, much more than people who are actually taking stances put into explaining their stances.
It’s quite amazing, really came out of the woodwork and completely missed the point of the meme
Is this rant of yours supposed to convince centrists to transit to extreme wings of spectrum?
In what way is the “left” in the posted meme an extreme?
In case of this meme - in the way of aggressiveness.
“The allies were too aggressive against the Nazis it really put me off”
This is what all these bullshit arguments sound like to me.
You have one side wanting to violate the humans rights and privacy of a marginalized group. The other side either wants to help this group or at bare minimum ignore them and let them live peacefully. One of these is aggressive. The other is just basic fucking decency.
The allies were too aggressive against the Nazis it really put me off"
Here we are again with the Godwin law :)
Not really. We’re talking about a marginalized group having their rights violated. It’s not my fault the most famous modern example of this that happened less than a century ago is Nazi Germany.
But conservatives aren’t “Nazi Germany” and trans aren’t Jews in Dachau.
That comparison of yours was bad taste, to say the least.
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Dividing political spectrum by left, central and right parts is pretty common approach.
Also, this post is about particular meme, which is comparing centrism and extremities.
The American left is globally considered to be on the right, so your “extreme wing” argument is comparing the far right to the middle right.
The fallacy you make here is believing the wings are equidistant from truth.
“Truth”? It’s society, not physics. There’s no universal casted in iron “truth”. There’re points of view.
Yep, you’re right. There’s clearly no difference in terms of proximity to reality between climate change deniers and the consensus of scientists. .
There’s clearly no difference between those responsible for major political violence and those with considerably less. Clearly impossible to use math to tally the difference. Amirite?
Clearly, believing in democracy versus overthrowing fair elections are also equidistant to truth and sanity.
Clearly no difference either between one wing espousing bleach and ivermectin and anti-vaxx hysteria while the other side has the vast majority of consensus of physicians and scientists on their side. Golly. This is tough!
/s
Why do you only pick the extreme right and not the extreme left in your examples? Radical communists are also all about overthrowing the government. I’m not saying that all communists are radical, but they exist. Extremists from all sides are the minority I’d say.
Because 76 million people aren’t voting for an ultra-leftist. But they’re voting for an ultra right-wing nutjob.
Because you can’t even fill your fingers of communist driven politically motivated homicides on one hand but I’d lose boredom counting the number of right-wing extremist acts of politically-motivated homicides.
Because, clearly, the right-wing wing extreme is the fat greater threat. That you even propose this speaks to the very sensationalist arguments of McCarthyism itself, peddled by none other but right-wing extremists.
It is thus a blatant false equivalence fallacy, and right-wing extremism is causing overwhelmingly more damage to this country than any other group.
These are weak manipulations. Don’t do that.
On the contrary, these dismantle your argument completely. Don’t deflect.
On the contrary, these dismantle your argument completely.
… if that will keep you from aggression - sure.
there’s no universal truth just points of view
I believe that water boils at 12°C at normal room pressure
You somehow missed first part of the sentence.
It’s not their responsibility to educate centrists.
Such a toxic approach isn’t productive. Don’t make an enemy from one, who are not. Inform them, if you want a support. And not in an aggressive way.
“Hey I want the right to exist peacefully”
“Ehhhhh idk I need more information on why you think you deserve that”
😐
This seems to suggest that the default position on rights is to deny them unless the marginalized group makes a convincing enough case for acceptance, politely. This, incidentally, is what put me off the term “acceptance” as a positive thing. As someone whose right to exist isn’t questioned daily, it shouldn’t be my right to decide whom to accept or “tolerate” (ew) but my moral duty to celebrate, welcome, and build up. The notion of a group being able to sit undisturbed while marginalized people make arguments for their rights, but never in a way that offend or discomfort me, is … bad.
I agree in theory, but in real life, there are some pretty heinous marginalized groups out there. I don’t think LGBT should be counted as some of them, but everyone agrees that there are SOME groups that absolutely should have to prove that they deserve certain rights before those rights can be extended. That’s what laws are.
And to attack centrists is better?
If someone calling you an asshole for not supporting someone’s right to exist is an attack then yes go fuck yourself with a brick.
Wow, that really made me a supporter of your position.
What is the “centrist” position between murdering people who undeniably exist vs. not murdering them?
Meme from the post doesn’t put the point there, don’t exaggerate, please.
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The person who made this comic is dumber than the strawman they’re portraying here.
Yeah I’m glad someone has said it.
There are a handful of quite hateful people out there. But they are very much a tiny minority. There are few legislators out there that worry me. But a lot are mostly just concerned with the huge rise in childhood cases.
But a lot are mostly just concerned with the huge rise in childhood cases.
It’s like autism. There hasn’t been a huge rise in autistic or trans kids; people just know what to look for now.
I think that is partly true. I’m not convinced it’s entirely true.
As there absolutely is a subpopulation for whom early intervention is incredibly helpful I honestly think it just needs to be dealt with on a case by case basis.
But it’s hard. There is that other vocal minority that is against transition in all its forms.
It is dealt with on a case by case basis. There is no one size fits all solution for being trans at any age.
I will say We are in a weird situation at present where people’s lack of acceptance about trans people is the cause of making the choices harder than it need be. In an ideal world gender non-conforming people are accepted and you make choices based purely based on your own comfort. But at present there are a lot of people out there trumpeting to the rooftops that if you look trans you deserve to be misgendered or segregated. If people can clock you as a trans person at a distance there is a cost in the form of getting hassled by bigots, higher chances of assault and possibly of being detained by security in airports, discriminated against for housing and job applications and there becomes more places in the world where it is not safe to go. The pressure to conform more neatly to one sexual phenotype’s presentation is at least in part a safety issue… One that can driven by the existence of transphobia in the world at large not strictly by personal desire. In any case the risks of the issue complicated as they are are for individuals to navigate case by case. Nobody forces anyone into surgery or horomones it is ultimately the choice of the paitent and if they are 16 (the minimum age for HRT and top surgery) their legal guardians.
Yeah well said. I don’t agree with absolutely everything in there, but I certainly do with most of it.
Let me put it this way… My take on the whole matter is this: we’re all human. As humans, we should all have the same opportunities for happiness and misery as everyone else. The rights to exist, vote, an education, get married to whomever we love and later resent and divorce, then miss and have a few regrettable late night drunken confessions to an answering machine.
No matter what color you are, what hardware you have in your pants, who you find attractive, or what your pronouns are, you should have the rights and ability to do the same things everyone else can.
I believe in human rights… As in, the same for all humans. When we no longer have the need to differentiate by some adjective, like trans rights or gay marriage or whatever, and it’s just human rights and marriage, regardless of the individuals involved, then maybe we won’t be a piece of shit society. Anyone railing against the rights of other humans based on some quirk of their personality (and bluntly, the idiosyncrasies of your gender and identity are minor compared to all the shit that’s the same between you and other humans), is simply discrimination. We are all more alike than different.
So let’s not be assholes to eachother. Okay?
You sound like YOU’RE the problem here, if folks thought like you how would the rich divide us? Plus shit would be all nice and that sounds rather nich actually but still…HATE.
In all seriousness I wish more people had your point of view, it takes too much energy and time to worry shit that doesn’t affect us. I’ll never understand why people just can’t be cool and mind their business.
Also a silly side note I never liked bud light but I’ll order in bars just to watch people’s opinion of me change… to amuse myself…so somehow Anheuser Busch managed to get me to drink piss.
You had me in the first half, I’m not going to lie.
As some have said, over and over: if you don’t like gay marriage, don’t get gay married.
Related, I too, troll people in very much the same way. I don’t think I’m going to stoop to buying that piss just to amuse myself though.
Thanks for playing along… honestly your point of view was the most reasonable and well thought out on here, I had to be a smuck just a bit for funsies. I’ll never understand why folks hate when we have much more important shit going on in life.
My brother did get gay married and his husband is the best member of the family…
basically one side is nazis and the other is against Nazis. if you’re ok with nazi’s, you’re a fucking idiot Nazi. Must suck.
“Nice people made the best Nazis”. That line always goes through my head…
https://www.wbur.org/cognoscenti/2016/11/17/the-post-election-case-for-speaking-out-naomi-shulman
Nice people made the best Nazis.
Or so I have been told. My mother was born in Munich in 1934, and spent her childhood in Nazi Germany surrounded by nice people who refused to make waves. When things got ugly, the people my mother lived alongside chose not to focus on “politics,” instead busying themselves with happier things. They were lovely, kind people who turned their heads as their neighbors were dragged away.
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What a terrible take
Yeah, I second this. You are a fucking shit bag human being if you thinking protesting for transrights without actively killing people is analogous with the KKK fucking lynching people for being black.
Fuck every Lemmy user thinks this. There is no being nice to someone who has this logic of thinking. There are no fucking analogies here and you are a downright fucking idiot with shit for brains if you think this and you think anyone here deserves to treat you any different than a KKK member.
You aren’t some alt normal person who is, “I like to stay in the middle because I am not extremist.” You are quite literally just saying, “killing people is comparable to people protesting for human rights.” Get the fuck out of here you pieces of shit.
Were you replying to a comment or to the OP?
I would imagine they’re talking about the post shown in the picture
But because I don’t know what Lemmy does with deleted parent comments in a thread and I wonder if they might have replied to now deleted comment, I find it in good manners to ask rather than to assume.
I mean, this whole comment section is filled with horrible takes but i was talking about the post in this comment
Anytime someone starts with “it’s just a fact” you can be pretty darn sure that whatever is coming isn’t just a fact.
“I’m not racist, but” followed 100% of the time by something racist.
I’m not a racist but I’m just saying the chorizo quesadilla I had yesterday was delicious.
Now it’s only 99.99999999% of the time
I’m not a racist, but, disc golf is fun!
I’m no racist but Hitler’s art was mediocre at best.
It’s just a fact that vaccines don’t cause cancer.
It’s just a fact that you are a smart independent thinker 😉
Thanks :), but in fact I’m not a independent thinker, I just follow what the science consensus is :)
The left one is the normal one actually. I would be fucking aggressive too if my rights would be violated.
That’s the trick of the straw man. In reality neither side wants what described on the picture. Left side wants more, right side wants less.
What do trans people want besides rights?
They want to live their lives in peace and safety. Can you believe the audacity? /s
One side wants basic human rights, the other side wants to kill people. Totally the same thing, 100%.
Here’s the crux of the matter: We believe that if you scratch a “centrist,” you find a right-winger underneath because they all seem to buy into right-wing talking points and framing of the issues, including rounding up what a few fringe leftists say as what the whole movement wants, while rounding down what multiple, whole state governments, and its leading Presidential contender, are doing and saying as not representative of the right.
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I’m not against you in principle, it’s just that I’m very selfish and afraid, and therefore against changing a world in which you’re oppressed.
You’ve touched on why the Trans movement is fighting a mountainous battle. They may have the outward “support” of a lot of people, but true understanding requires people to change their internal worldview about how gender works and where their place in it is. Many older or middle-aged folks these days are not ready or willing to do that. They know where they sit in their binary and don’t want to face they may not be one or the other.
this, but the left in general. we’ll always be punching above our weight because the right and the center have the comforting, incorrect belief that everything is fundamentally okay.
I’ve heard this idea before and it boils down to this: how do you motivate people to rally behind an idea whose central tenet is that things are broken and need fixing? It’s so easy to motivate people by saying things used to be great and we need to go back to when it was great (conservatives). But to admit things are wrong and we need to actually work to improve? People don’t like hearing that they need to change. So it’s a constant battle to keep people motivated enough to put in the work, but not disenfranchised and defeated about how much work it takes.
Talk to a Biden supporter who believes that Biden has always been pro-lgbt and anti-establishment and you’ll see what the left has to punch harder than that
There’s no such a thing as neutrality. French didn’t get the right to education being neutral, neither anyone conquered any right being neutral. Being neutral means being condescending with the current status quo.
