Iran said it launched dozens of drones and ballistic missiles towards Israel on Saturday in a major attack following days of acute tension building up in the region and warnings from the US and elsewhere about a wider conflict erupting.
Air attack warning sirens began wailing over Jerusalem just before 2am local time on Sunday after the weapons were fired a few hours earlier from Iran with US and Jordanian military assisting Israel’s air defenses in intercepting the first incoming barrage.
With weapons believed to be still in the air en route to Israel, Iran’s mission to the United Nations posted on X: “Iran’s military action was in response to the Zionist regime’s aggression against our diplomatic premises in Damascus. The matter can be deemed concluded.”
However, it threatened more severe action in the face of further Israeli aggression and warned the US and Jordan specifically not to assist Israel.
Edit: here are links to the NYT and BBC live feeds.
Edit 2: updated summary and archive to reflect article changes.
Yeah, Iran sucks and everything, but didn’t Israel start this by bombing their embassy in Syria? If Israel had been held to account for that, maybe we wouldn’t be looking at yet another flashpoint involving a nuclear armed state.
I don’t know what anyone expected Iran to do here.
didn’t Israel start this by bombing their embassy in Syria?
Israel bombed their embassy in Syria as a response to Iran helping Hezbollah and Hamas. At one point an Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps spokesman said October 7th was a response to the death of Quds Force commander Qasem Soleimani, although they later retracted that. The Israelis wanted Soleimani gone because of his role in supporting Hamas and Hezbollah and earlier attacks on Israel, including his involvement in the 2006 war in Lebanon. Etc. etc. etc. on and on back to before Iran became Iran.
The middle-east is an illustration of the idiom “An Eye for an Eye Will Make the Whole World Blind”.
If we keep going back, Israel has committed far too many hostilities that were never responded to. Hell, they bomb syria most weeks without any retaliation form Syria. They commit horrors against west bank citizens all the time.
If we keep going back, Israel has committed far too many hostilities that were never responded to.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_Nations_resolutions_concerning_Israel
Can you guess how many of these were vetoed by USA
Uhuh.
Anyway, breaking news is that Iran has also launched cruise missiles, so now Israel’s going to retaliate with a significant strike against Iran. And in case you haven’t been paying attention, Israel are less than great on proportionality.
Never a dull day.
Israel doing more genocide. Disappointing but not surprising.
Come on dude, don’t dilute the word for every atrocity. Nothing between Iran and Israel is remotely a genocide , and using that word here diminishes the suffering in Gaza and other places
Call it whatever you want, I literally don’t care about emantics and I won’t argue them. It doesn’t discount the horror that Israel commits.
Yep. Most places the UN would come in and try to settle everyone down, but the US basically blocks anything like that, and it’s possible that’s mostly because of mystical prophecies they believe.
Let’s not forget that it was the US that started this trend of killing Iranian generals.
Let’s not forget the same thing I have to say every fucking time in one of these posts: Just because the United States did something wrong does not mean others should follow
You guys need to learn from our fuck ups!
But maybe it wasn’t judged as a fuck up. Maybe it just gave license for others to replicate.
No I stand here and tell you as a natural born American that our military actions have an infinitesimally small good to bad ratio.
We have like the independence war and WWII and even that has atomic bombs involved.
WWI was just a giant clusterfuck and idk that there were good and bad guys in that one.
WWII at least had hitler going after the Jews, gays, and non-aryans, plus japan going after China and well honestly I don’t know why people remember the holocaust so much and forget all about the super fucked up shit Japan did.
Good/Bad isn’t the point. The point is if you do something that shouldn’t even be on the table and get away with it, it’s now on the table for everyone.
Has the US ever bombed an embassy? Knowing your post history, I have a feeling you left out that detail for a reason.
Has the US ever bombed an embassy?
Good, 25 years ago and not a part of this conflict. And it was a huge issue. The OP is trying to omit that part of the story.
In any case, hopefully Israel gets what it deserves for the genocide it’s committing.
The Syrian Israeli strike was not on Iran’s embassy. It was on a building next door. An embassey is where you practice consultant affairs. Having a place to discuss military strategy doesn’t count.
As an apologist for the genocide, I know why you do it, I just want other people to see your strategy.
Have you ever worked on your vocabulary? It needs freshoning
Israel doesn’t care about MAD
Theocratic dictatorships tend to be like that. Iran does not care about MAD either, I reckon.
iran is funding and arming hamas, hizballah and the houthis, all of which were attacking israel.
in addition to their attacks on usa bases.Wasn’t Hamas created in response to Israeli aggression?
Not defending Hamas, but they don’t exist in a vacuum.
The religious extremism that became Hamas was funded and grew to power with Israeli funding.
As usual in the Middle East, the answer is “it’s complicated”. Anyone claiming that either Israel or Iran is 100% good or 100% bad is wrong.
And continued by Netanyahu himself: https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/
The Israeli far-right gained power in part due to Hamas, PLO and Hezbollah attacks.
It’s an endless spiral of violence, reprisal and even more violence.
The goal of Hamas is not “to stop aggression” but to destroy Israel. So it was formed as response to Israel existence, to which many Muslims never agreed.
Israel is born out of aggression
Nonsense. It was born according to UN resolution (and League of Nations resolution as well). And since then the aggression was directed against Israel with multiple wars initiated by those who did not want to agree with the resolutions. If it were not for those wars many Arab/Muslim lives would be saved and there would not be a situation we are today. The situation with Palestine today is direct consequence of all that history because how Israel can trust an independent Palestine when Gaza ruling party has destruction of Israel as one of the main principle. The same principle that you seem to support by the way, thus supporting the cycle of violence with no prospects of peace.
iran is funding and arming hamas, hizballah and the houthis, all of which were attacking israel. in addition to their attacks on usa bases.
don’t forget that those fucks also support Russia with their drones…
Yup. I’ve seen a disturbing amount of people pretending Iran are the good guys just because Israel are also the bad guys, as if it’s impossible for multiple sides in a conflict to be awful
The Good Guy Iran narrative is so bizarre. It’s like applauding someone for “showing restraint” because they hired a hitman instead of killing someone themselves.
It’s also not covered within international law to fund an attack by independent groups, only sovereign nations.
Funding Ukraine makes it legally Ukraine’s action. Funding Houthis makes it legally Iran’s action.
There are no good guys in the middle east. Only civilians that are angry about being shit on.
no good guys
Yes there are. Hero doctors and nurses who risk their lives to save civillian patients. Aid workers. World Central Kitchen workers.
That’s the side we should be on.
Wait, now you motherfuckers understand how multiple sides can be bad?
All I keep hearing from people like you is how Israel must be fucking great because fucking did something wrong so Israel can’t do anything else wrong
Who are “people like you?” I’ve seen plenty of people who are capable of recognizing that Israel’s behavior has been atrocious and Iran funds and sponsors terrorists and Russia’s invasion of Ukraine.
Homie go check my history, you’ll see I am far from a fan of Israel and the IDF
Fair enough I got heated, mea culpa.
I apologize
don’t forget that those fucks also support Russia with their drones…
Maybe you didn’t know yet. But Israel sold $ 400 Million worth drones to Russia. And they have been used in the war against Ukraine by Russia. Meanwhile Israel did not sanction Russia after its invasion of Ukraine.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/ukraine-photos-claim-to-show-downed-russian-drone-with-israeli-origin/
Note that Israel continued to sell drones to Russia after the Crimea annexation by Russia. So it can also not be said, that they didn’t knew what Russia would do with them. Israel was happy to aid Russia’s invasion from the very beginning.
Meanwhile Israel funds and arms terrorist groups in Iran like the Mojahiden-e-khalq or Al-Nusra in Syria, in addition to their cyber attacks on Iran and assassinations of Iranian scientists.
al-nusra in syria is funded by qatar, which syrians are suing for that.
the mek was allegedly supported also by israel, along with the saudis and the usa.
which had to start after their funding and cooperation with saddam hussein. so after 2003. much after iran’s support for hamas since the 1990’s and the founding of hizballah in the 1980’s.and since then they’ve barely done anything other than the 2 assassinations related to iran’s nuclear program. not even close to hamas, houthis’ or hizballah’s actions. and they barely have any weapons or funding compared, let alone thousands of rockets and drones.
Of course Saudi tries to blame their enemy Qatar. That was more of an accusation than any solid proof, at which point the CIA likely helped them to since they were toppling Assad.
Meanwhile according to Wikipedia:
There were cases of al-Nusra combatants receiving medical aid in Israel and returning to fight. Former head of Mossad, Efraim Halevy, in an interview for al-Jazeera implicitly confirmed that such practices had taken place
Yes, it does, and it sucks. It’s basically war over there. That said, attacking an embassy is a line where Israel’s actions should have been condemned. The point is not that Iran is in the right in any way, the point is Israel is just as wrong here.
Iran’s response isn’t proportional though. Israel made a single strike on military leaders using a nearby embassy. Launching dozens of drones is an escalation.
It’s not even a smart escalation. It allows Israel to claim they were attacked disproportionately and launch strikes on Iran’s actual military in country. Iran has much worse defenses against cruise missiles and drones. Now they may lose what sympathy they had from other countries.
I predict the US will free the ship Iran took today within a few weeks. Maybe the Navy will knock out all Iran’s anti-air radar in the south, just as a show of force, and then not attack anything. That would be a good way to tell them to stop without killing.
The US just tried to negotiate with Houthis over the attacks in the Red Sea, an
omissionadmission that things aren’t going so well. Iran is in a stronger position than Houthis, I think your over estimating the US right now.an omission that things aren’t going so well
Admission
Israel escalated by striking an embassy, breaking the Vienna convention, to Iran arming insurgents. That was Israel launching four missiles at Iranian sovereign territory, targeting high-ranking Iranian military officials, on ground that is considered to be sacrosanct internationally to preserve diplomacy in times of war.
The thing is, the drones are proportional retaliation, but still, it should be on both sides to try to de-escalate.
What I see though is that Israel wasn’t even condemned for the attack, in fact they tried to claim it wasn’t even an embassy they hit. Now the problem is that Iran, with its leadership and government being how it is, can’t let this go as they are humiliated. When Trump killed Soleimani, which was a similar strike (but not at an embassy!), Iran launched attacks at US bases, wounding US troops which the US let go without retaliation. That’s how it got de-escalated.
Your point with “let’s humiliate Iran by performing a show of force” is that they won’t take it and de-escalate. It will make it worse. I’m not saying we should let Iran walk all over us, but stepping in to cover one shitty side against another will just lead to either war or another 9/11.
You didn’t mention the ship they took. If you think the missiles and drones (dozens) are proportional, then the ship makes no sense. Commandeering a civilian ship is clearly extra and disproportionate. They’re probably not going to give that up without getting something in return.
The leaders of Iran are desperate to seem tough to their domestic audience, like Putin. That’s why they did this. Unfortunately for the people of Iran, this is going to hurt them further with sanctions.
Iran attacked the specific military installations that Israel used to perform their highly illegal attack on the Iranian embassy. This is the most textbook example of textbook examples of appropriate, proportional and measured self-defense we have seen in a very long time in the entire region. The relevant thing to count is not the number of missiles or drones, but the number of targets and their relevance to the case.
So now the Zionist spam brigades have started infesting Lemmy as well judging from some of the comments here. Very sad to see that. Last time I checked on Reddit it was already unbearable there.
This is really bad news, and by no means do I support Iran. But the attack on Irans embassy should have caused sanctions and condemnations. Instead Biden rushed to defend Israel as if Israel wouldn’t have started this.
I can’t believe what a fucking tragedy this is. With the US elections upcoming, Biden being prepared to die on this hill is what may actually cause that Trump wins and the US turns into full on fascism. Needless to say Trump won’t do jackshit for Palestinians either.
Western media hypocrisy made it seem mike an ordinary thing to target embassies, which have a very particular status akin to targeting the homeland territory , some mainstream media barely touched upon the news or dismissed it completely, if it were any other country like Russia targeting an EU embassy in asia or Africa it would have been non-stop news and escalation. they manufacture the outrage on small issues and keep the people ignorant on more important ones.
My local news straight up called these air attacks “Iranian aggression”. No, you fuckers, Israel went first this time. Usually it’s a slight slant but that’s just lies.
“You furnish the pictures, I’ll furnish the war!”
William Randolph Hearsts, the lot of them.
“went first”? Are we just sweeping under the rug Iran’s role on the 7th of October?
How far back do you want to go, lol? It’s easy to skip back to the last “tat” in a series of “tit-for-tat” that stretches back to the 40’s at least. The hardliners on both sides like to go back all the way to mythology, and while that’s obviously backwards it at least is intellectually honest.
On the 6th there was a ceasefire, then what Hamas did on the 7th changed that. People going further back are apologists looking to justify the unjustifiable.
Wowee, that’s so arbitrary.
Silliness to try and justify the taking of human life. No matter, “who started it.”
But that’s an awfully simplistic take too. I’m not defending Israel’s actions, but if these officers have been involved in either “starting it” or even the continued war, taking of human lives, they are valid targets. Having them run and hide in a diplomatic building while continuing to participate in the war, continuing to take human lives, is surely frustrating. To the country whose lives they are taking.
I’m not trying to take Israel’s side here, just saying that you can’t just take this attack out of context
I’ve seen the media careful to make a distinction between the embassy and “a consular building adjacent to the embassy”. I did a quick search expecting the to be the defense.
But international law is the real wtf. According to the Wikipedia entry
is the obligation of the country in which an embassy is located to protect the embassy, but international treaties do not expressly prohibit a third country to target diplomatic premises if they host combatants and are targeted in an act of self-defense, although a claim of self-defense cannot usually justify an attack on the territory of a country not participating in hostilities.
So, it’s Syria’s fault for not protecting diplomatic buildings? Plus Syria probably has a claim against Israel, whereas Iran doesn’t?
I’m sure Israel will attempt to argue self defense based on the targeted officers and however they may have participated in the original attack and involvement of Yemen, but that’s a pretty big stretch.
“Embassies.”
Fuck off promptly
This is all due to the breakdown of norms by allowing Israel to do whatever it wants. Respect for American soft power is non existent because of the double standard with Israel, Russia and the Middle East. Now American citizens get dragged into another war that they don’t want by the ruling class.
Not just allowing israel to do so, but providing them with weapons and now America and the UK are even intercepting any retaliation. Making sure nobody can fight back against the bully.
I think it’s fair to rush to intercept. It’s a purely defensive action, and if they’re able to intercept the entire barrage of attacks, Israel may not retaliate. It’s in everyone’s best interest – Iran included – that this doesn’t escalate even farther and farther.
Iran had all the right to do this, but that doesn’t mean they should have. The ideal situation would be for the US and company to prevent attacks from landing and then telling Israel to end their genocidal operations unless they want to face the next wave themselves.
And if Israel refuses, then let Netanyahu handle it himself. Make good on our threat to not help.
Unfortunately, I’m not certain it’s in Israel’s best interest that this doesn’t escalate. They can probably do serious damage to Iran whereas the reverse is far less certain (evidently from this attack). And they knew very well that their embassy attack will bring Iranian retaliation. Now they’ll just use that for an even greater response.
“You’re out of office and getting prosecuted right away when this war is over!”
Netanyahu:
Starting a two front war is never a good idea. Israel has the advantage over any single country in the region but it would be stupid of them to escalate that into multiple countries.
From coverage I just read:
The U.S. has no doubt Israel will respond whether lives are lost or not. And that Iran itself will be targeted.
My hot take: at least Iran didn’t shoot down its own civilian airliner this time thinking they were taking out a US bomber or whatever. My fear is that Iran thinks it’s ordained by Dog to restore Islam to its rightful place (read: cleanse Israel of all the Jews and and put decent Muslim folk in charge of all the holy piles of rocks), and maybe that means their strategic calculus isn’t exactly sober. Perhaps they think they can win a war with Israel, what with Dog on their side, and they absolutely cannot. Iran has said they are willing to let this wave of attacks be the end of the matter so let’s hope they are sober enough to not keep going blow for blow. So far it seems to be a proportionate response by Iran (given that almost nothing seems to have made it through (though I am not sure what their targets were, specifically)). I’d like to see Iran have a nice Arab spring and see the Supreme Leader get the respect he deserves just like Gaddafi, but I’d be just ducky if it could be a drone strike. Hopefully this doesn’t devolve into utter catastrophe and a cascade of failed states.
This drone attack by Iran may have more to do with “showing” it’s little vassal terrorist groups it’s prodding and bankrolling into doing Iran’s dirty work that Iran is “doing” something militarily in support of Hamas and the Houthi.
What is a drone strike that is going to take 8 to 10 hours to arrive supposed to accomplish when it’s so easy to spot coming well ahead of time. It’s not like Iran doesn’t have missiles that can hit Israel in a handful of minutes if Iran really wanted to do damage.
I’d say the best that could be hoped for is Israel shoots everything down.
- Iran got their revenge
- Israel wasn’t harmed
- As a US citizen, I’m fine with encouraging this part of the war to end with “sure, we’ll replace all the missiles Israel used to defend themselves”
Before everyone attacks me, remember that anti-aircraft missiles are good for defense but not offense.
They’ve been here for a while. Try reading new posts and find the negative vote comments. Same for y’all-queda and the qultists and white supremacists, and tankies, and most misinformation campaigns. It is the internet after all.
God I hope this place doesn’t turn into something like Voat where it’s just another 4chan like environment filled with all the users banned for posting racist shit and CP.
Nah, mods here are pretty liberal with the banhammer.
Banned for calling mods liberals
Yep. They had CP come through a couple of the communities and they locked that shit down pretty quickly.
Some motherfuckers don’t know how to act.
Blue conservatives.
They’re being a bit futile. If your default sort is active it doesn’t hide any downvoted comments.
And if you’re on an instance like Kbin or Beehaw, downvotes don’t even affect vote count because the downvotes are not federated.
Who do you think the tankies support in this conflict? Or, is this just poisoning the well to help Israel / US?
“Tankie” doesn’t coincide with any distinct political bloc, it’s essentially a buzzword to discredit leftists that are claimed to support authoritarian regimes. But what one might call a tankie in this instance would support Palestine as ‘tankies’ are against the US and their proxies.
Someone who supports Palestine and is against the US is not automatically a Tankie. But if this person at the same time makes excuses for the Russian invasion or argues that Taiwan belongs to China, then they are.
Hypocrisy (lying / arguing in bad faith) is exactly what makes the difference between a leftist and a Tankie.
You are correct, and it is used that way, what I’m saying though is there isn’t a distinct definition, it’s used differently by different groups and so only really serves to muddy discussions and shun ideological outsiders.
The same embassy that was full of Hezbollah? Iran is a terrorist state that sponsors terrorism.
Based on what evidence? Even if it were, an attack on an embassy or consulate is akin to attacking their territory. If Israel has a right to retaliate against Hamas then Iran has every right to retaliate against Israel.
The Iranian General they killed planned the October 6th massacre near Gaza.
Terrorist is a meaningless word.
It’s not completely meaningless, but it only means “people I don’t like”. It’s not anything objective.
Would you prefer Jihadist?
Yes. But then you run up against the fact there’s plenty of Jewish holy warriors in Israel, including in the government, so it starts looking morally equivalent again.
If you had to pick between Israel and Saudi Arabia to move your family to which one would you choose?
Well, this is completely unrelated to the original point, but Israel. Which happens to get along okay with Saudi Arabia, and both of which hate the original subject of Iran.
Even as an atheist Jew, somewhere Muslim like Khazakhstan or Indonesia are still higher on my list, in part because they don’t have theocrats in government.
Can’t say they’re much higher on my list. I guess what I’m trying to highlight is that Israel is a lot closer to a functional democracy than any other state in the Middle East and advocating for the terrorists they’re fighting is really naive.
By terrorism you mean brown people committing acts of violence? This is a response to Israel attacking Iran much like the genocide in Palestine is a response to Hamas attacking Israel.
Irrelevant, embassies are internationally protected sanctuaries.
So it’s okay to massacre 1200 civilians wherever, I don’t personally respect the international rights of Iran being they’re a terrorist state who does a lot of terrorism.
Irrelevant, embassies are internationally protected sanctuaries.
Except it wasn’t an embassy. You got worked.
It feels like watching the Cuban missile crisis. A sinking uncomfortable feeling. I think the news has legitimately traumatized me. Breaking news means the next horrible thing has happened.
Actual breaking news in a 24-hours news cycle is never a good thing.
Yep. Haven’t felt this way since Ukraine started.
Netanyahu picked this fight, he should fight it himself. Otherwise its just encouraging other US allies to create chaos in bids for additional military support. Turkey is probably taking notes right now.
Turkey is watching and taking notes about how the US supports full on genocide if you are Jew and doing it. If you are a Muslim or Turkish, the US will keep on supporting the local terror organizations like PKK through bordering YPG branch.
Turkey is researching ways to become Jewish.
Edit: Not just about the US but also the UK, France and Germany that oppresses protests against Israel’s genocide and arming Netanyahu with offensive weapons and using their own ships to defend against any retaliatory attacks. Turkey keeps thinking if her allies are the bad guys.
I know Israel is a small country of only 10M people with a traumatic history surrounded by enemies…so they need to act tough in their neighbourhood, take no shit and all…but they start to feel like the tiny angry girlfriend who dates a big guy and picks up fights in every bar expecting everyone to be afraid that her date will come to the rescue every time…
Painting Israel as a victim just for having a small population / geography… I don’t know about that. They’ve committed far too many massscres since their inception to be portrayed like that.
They were victims of the Holocaust. They were aggressors in the Nakba. They were probably victims one or more times after that, as well as aggressors (I’m a bit fuzzy on that history, honestly), and now they’re aggressors doing a “proportionate genocide” in Gaza. And they want to start shit with Iran, which might just be a case of two assholes fighting each other.
Jews were victims of the Holocaust
Zionists were aggressors in the Nakba
Don’t conflate Judaism with Zionism
Yeah, but Zionism is a Jewish movement, and I doubt there were many Zionists who got through the Holocaust unscathed. It was the major motivating factor for actually doing it, so it is a big part of the picture.
Signed, a (technically) Jewish anti-Zionist.
Zionism is a Jewish movement
It’s a movement that concerns followers of Judaism. But plenty of Zionists are Evangelicals etc. And Zionism has always had support from Non-Jews, dating back to its 19th century origins
I actually don’t know much about the history of non-Jewish support, come to think of it. I should look into that.
Stop giving in to the narrative that Israel equates to Jews. Jews suffered the Holocaust. Israel does not benefit from the suffering endured by a distinct group
Inequivalent, yes, distinct no. The founding of Israel and especially the settlement had a lot to do with the Holocaust. That doesn’t justify the Nakba, but if someone is trying to make one side out as always the villain they’re basically part of the problem we’ve had this whole time.
We’re all people. Just ordinary people, like you’d meet in a grocery store, but also capable of horrendous things.
but they start to feel like the tiny angry girlfriend who dates a big guy and picks up fights in every bar expecting everyone to be afraid that her date will come to the rescue every time…
Lol, I called them US’s little Chihuahua dog that rabidly barks at any moving object
Chihuahuas don’t kill so many children.
So pitbull then
Let’s be honest, they would if they could.
Also they have started the hostilities and made enemies of neighbors, not like they weren’t offered a fair share of land even in the face of them settling in there because the big ex-boyfriend just forced so.
The tiny angry girlfriend who is also killing children and old people in her basement?
I’m not quite sure how to fit Netanyahu into this analogy, but that’s also a factor. The dude doesn’t want to go to jail and it looks like he has no problem flattening the Middle East if it helps prop him up.
Seems like no one in Israel has any issues with following orders.
Israel is an apartheid. Stop falling for the Holocaust sympathy propaganda. The country is rotten to the core and doesn’t represent Jews.
It is an open air prison, no doubt about that. Yet the apartheid in this case did not arise out of pure racism, but as a reaction to a history of constant suicide bombings. Besides, there are 2 million palestinian israelis living peacefully inside Israel…but there is also a part of Israel that does not help their case either by covering for every nationalist invading the West Bank or the cruelty they allow to go unpunished e.g. Shireen Abu Akleh.
Pretty sure isrealis were the first to bomb given that they were doing it before their country existed and then took terrorists as national heroes and military leaders.
Ok… great … as if the problem wasn’t complex enough, there were/are? also crazy jewish bombers :/
The point is, you stated the apartheid was a response to bombings, but Zionist terrorists were bombing and killing Palestinians before the Israeli state existed, and those terrorists were rewarded by the West and put into positions of power in Israel. After which there has been continued resistance by Palestinians.
It’s an apartheid, but it’s good. Get out of here.
What would you have done?
I personally wouldn’t have used mass murder and eviction to create an ethnostate aka Israel. Israel then has proceeded to annex more land against all treaties, blocks aid from entering Palestine and routinely murders Palestinian civilians. Are you saying Israel had no other options?
Yes, I agree it should not have been done, it is the UN’s original sin. But now it is there, survived lots of attacks from its beighbours, lots of jews were expelled from e.g. arab countries to shelter there, you just can’t go back.
I’m asking what you would do if 20% of a country next to you kept trying to kill you (hamas wouldn’t even be happy with Palestinian statehood, they just want Israel wiped off the map).
I’d “build a wall”, stop weapons going in and let them be until they calm down somehow…but that’s not what Israel did anyway…and hamas got over the fucking wall anyway, so here we are…back to 2007 again.
They didn’t just do that though, they funded Hamas, allowed them to recieve weapons, refuses to recognize any sort of Palestinian statehood, pursued policies that enabled the most extreme factions of Palestinian resistance and thwarts any attempt at lasting peace. There is a long-term plan in the works by Israeli forces to annex all of Palestine. Israeli officials from top to bottom have made it clear they want to eliminate Palestine as an idea.
What would you do if you were Palestinian?
Stop being an apartheid and have a truth and reconciliation process to correct the wrongs done to the Palestinians.
I stopped looking at this problem through the lens of morality, it just leads you into a paralyzing spiral of blame and righteousness, because you have millions of people who don’t even know their borders, their status, their rights, an israeli military that is not sure where their jurisdiction and authority ends, a divided capital (that in itself is a stupid diplomatic trap by design, who the hell thought that would ever work?). This was a political failure in the making born from the utopian lack of vision of the birth of the UN: a political trap for anyone that gets near it, which can also be weaponized into political ammo by outside forces.
Probably the only solution starts by disabling the first layer of the trap: a palestinian state with its own official borders (which is its own problem, because there is no contiguity…legacy of the stupid original bipartite design), some form of limited military, navigation rights, release Marwan Barghouti, etc …and then you pray that hamas does not win the elections and immediately declare jihad on Israel :/ , but at least then there will be some clarity about what to do in terms of what we want states to act like with each other.
I am going to take the US perspective in all this and ask why they fuck are we even getting involved? They are half a world away. Why are Israel and Turkey? US allies? What have they done for us? Because it seems like we give them an awful lot and don’t get very much in return. The US should focus on defending the US and let Israel, Iran and all the rest of them have their part of the world with their conflicts. Just leave us the hell out of it.
Edit: And we need to stay the hell out of their business and leave them the fuck alone to run their countries the way they want to.
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Oil
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Shipping zones for commerce
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Strategic locations for the above
Not looking to be antagonizing, as you’re correct those are the reasons. But it should be said that they are stupid reasons. We should be weaning off oil as quickly as possible. The second point is in a lot of ways a hindrance, as shipping zones means shipping away manufacturing jobs.
And none of that is worth the price of war, or supporting genocide.
Not to mention that plenty of countries through the world are capable of engaging in maritime commerce with Middle Eastern countries without having military bases there.
To be fair, they enjoy that luxury due to the fact that the US Navy protects the shipping lanes.
It’s not like we wouldn’t use other ones if the area suddenly became unusable. Sure, it would be expensive. But hardly a need.
Completely agree. Just listing what I could think of for reasons. 👐
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It’s the Middle East. It has a huge amount of a particularly important strategic resource. Additionally, the countries there generally have, at best, a cold relationship with the US. If not outright adversarial.
Israel is smack dab in the middle of it with access to the sea. It holds a massively important strategic military and geopolitical position for the US.
So, sure, what the other poster says is definitely part of it, but I think what primarily drives US support to be seemingly unequivocal is that the US/Israel alliance is also very important to US geopolitical influence as well.
As for that natural resource, we have quite a bit of it here in the United States itself. So we wouldn’t have to rely on them to get that resource. That, and if the US really wanted to break away, they could very seriously incentivize the purchase of electric mobility devices, such as electric bikes and scooters and cars.
The US is 10th on the list of oil reserves
6 of those above the US are in the middle east (or northern Africa, depending on how you draw your boundaries). 5 of those have more than twice the amount of the US. One has probably around 5x. The US is burning through reserves right now, which is strategically a bad long term idea, IMO.
I agree with you that certain dependance can go away if we shift to electric. However, militarily speaking, oil is going to be king probably for a long time. And that’s what this is about. Not just making sure civilians can drive down the road cheaply, although that certainly plays a role.
The US is a net exporter of oil. They don’t have a hard dependency on the list and it doesn’t matter if they’re 6th or 60th - they have more than they need.
For now. They aren’t just thinking this very second.
Oil is crucial for agriculture and the production of vital chemicals and materials. We really shouldn’t be burning it.
Gotta tell Ya’ll Qaeda that they’ll have to give up their trucks but they can keep plastic straws.
Israel is #91 on that same list. Israel consistently increases tensions with our trade partners in the region. They are a liability to our trade negotiations, not an asset.
It has a huge amount of a particularly important strategic resource.
This is not accurate. There are multiple nearby allied/NATO countries in the area as well as carrier groups in the Med that more than cover what Israel offers us.
Israel does not offer us a unique strategic advantage in any scenario. They only increase tensions with our existing trade partners in the region and threaten to bring us into wars that they start. They are very much using us, and have been for decades. We allow/justify it because of religious and traditional reasons. Nothing more.
Biden is backing Israel because some of the U.S.'s biggest political donors (AIPAC) will shift their support back to the Republicans in the upcoming election if he doesn’t. Mark my words: Biden will back off Israel support the instant it becomes too late for certain donors to negatively affect the upcoming election.
I don’t know about Turkey, but US politicians mostly care about Israel because AIPAC pumps a ton of money into US politics, both in the form of funneling it to pro-Israel candidates, and ads and campaign funding against those who don’t bow down to swear fealty to Israel.
To a lesser extent, you also have a large chunk of fundamentalist Christians in the us who will support Israel no matter what because they believe Israel needs to exist as a nation with its full, Biblical territory, in order for Armageddon and the return of Jesus to occur. Just yet another way conservative Christians are trying to wreck the US for their insane beliefs.
You are correct. GDF just did a fantastic video breaking it all down.
You can’t be on top of the global trade and neglect strategic points that protect strategic trade routes. I mean, you can, but it will make USA shrink in global importance even faster. You leave, others fill the void, pay the price, reap the benefits. Isolationism isn’t likely to save the USA world dominance. Dominance which is the very biggest reason your currency is the most stable in the world: it’s backed by the biggest military apparatus ever, stop caring about the world, find out soon when your prices skyrocket and economy crashes. The real question is how the USA should behave in this, not if they should do a thing but rather what they should do.
Oh, i hold very few blood notes. Let it crash. My gold will hold its value
Ah you’re one of those people
Yep
Israel offers absolutely no unique strategic value to U.S. trade or military logistics. There are nearby NATO countries, bases in nearby allied countries as well as carriers in the Med that more than cover us.
Israel is only a liability to us. They exacerbate tensions with our existing trade partners in the region and risk bringing us into unecessary conflicts.
turkey has a strategic position towards the bosporus and russia, why they get away with a lot of bullshit too, israel is a more important as a reliable foot on the ground for guaranteeing the north end of the suez canal and the eastern end of the mediterranean. Cyprus also plays that role, but is also contested area greece/turkey. Never put all your eggs in one basket, that kind of thing. Carriers are nice but a always a risk (they might not seem so now, but you never know). Israel also offers an extra access point north side of the red sea, would the suez be unaccessible.
I’m not at all saying the usa should just blindly follow israel on its warpath as it has been for many decades. They should try to get netanyahu towards the exit, sooner the better, but just leaving israel altogether is probably not in the best interest for the usa itself, long term geostrategically.
Sounds an awful lot like “America First”?
As it should be, I would expect Israel to be Israel first. I would expect Iran to be Iran first. I would expect France to be France first. I would expect China to be China first, etc etc.
I wish we would all be Humans first.
“And I will give you borders they’re imaginary lines. If you cross them, go to war and win when everybody dies. Don’t you see, I’m the system. My whole purpose is divide. What you do will never matter because everything is mine.”
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Who is the manager of this system, I would like a word?
That would be the goons that we refer to as governments and let them rule over us.
That you, Donald?
If it’s just drones, this is just a tit-for-tat for the attack in Syria and not WWIII.
It’s a good thing that Israel’s retaliation is never disproportionate.
Obligatory, since people are not getting it:
There can not be a “cost of doing business” for the likes of Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran. Has anyone here ever wondered why Hezbollah are so tame in this conflict, why they are so deathly afraid of an escalation? Hint: They are seeing the footage from Gaza too, they too are keeping track of how every single Hamas commander is being systematically hunted down, how Israel is willing and able to level an entire apartment block just to get one of them, global public opinion be damned - or, if they are feeling particularly humane that day, sending a small missile or drone precisely into the window that commander happens to be sitting behind.
How anyone expected anything but pure hellfire in response to the October 7 massacres and rapes is beyond me. No nation on Earth would have reacted any differently. The likes of Switzerland or Denmark would have gone medieval on the perpetrators in a situation like this. Iran is playing a very dangerous game. One “lucky” hit by one of their missiles or drones, e.g. into a busy crowd, school or hospital, could spell the end of the regime in Tehran.
No nation on Earth would have reacted any differently.
I see this canard a lot, and it’s simply not true.
There are plenty of nations that don’t have track records of ignoring international law and committing egregious human rights abuses, including during armed conflict.
It is simply not reasonable to assume those countries would start a campaign of massive civilian slaughter.
Last time I checked, the UK didn’t level parts of Belfast during the troubles and commit collective punishment of civilians there.
Or similarly how Turkey handles its current operation in northern Syria that started with ISIS attacking Turkish villages across the border and continues against local groups funneling support to PKK there.
Good example.
I don’t think you understand how many orders of Magnitude hezbollah is above hummus
Sure thing, but they don’t want to experience the kind of air campaign (let alone ground assault) that is currently wiping the floor with Hamas. They are much larger and more capable than the Palestinian terror org, but the mere fact that they don’t have an air force would make any meaningful escalation a very uneven fight. There’s a reason Nasrallah hasn’t seen any daylight in years.
Wiping the floor, I mean, they did kill a shit ton of Innocent and children. So they won that.
Other than that, they can’t even keep the stuff that they’ve already bombed to hell with no one in it.
they also sent cruise missiles
That is unconfirmed. So far it’s drones according to the article and US intelligence. Our intelligence guys have been doing a good job forecasting what is happening so I’m inclined to believe them. Guess we will see in a few hours.
Iran launches dozens of drones, cruise missiles at Israel
also statements from iran about missiles being fired.
Like I said, we will find out in a couple hours. They will launch the ballistics and cruse missiles way later. Those don’t take hours to get there.
I am backing sconie.
The trick to this whole thing is to overwhelm iron dome with sheer numbers.
With how quick the other explosive delivery vehicles are, you have to launch them staggered so they all hit at the right time.
You use your little bitty drones and cruise missiles so that you can drive a hole over one area before they can re-arm the iron dome right there.
Your ballistic missiles fall through the gap and really do the damage
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
If ballistic missiles follow? Well…
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So, uh, are we doing World War 3 now? Just asking because I need to know if I should be canceling my summer plans and investing in canned food.
No. Sorry. This is Cold War II.
Analysts are literally calling it that
Cold wars don’t have direct conflict.Nevermind.Yes they do, just not directly between the primary powers
The US invaded Vietnam and the USSR invaded Afghanistan during the Cold War. Conflicts are standard
I stand corrected. But in my defense, the dumb online dictionary backed up what I thought– after I got past “The Cold War”, anyway. Stupid search engines…
No, that shouldn’t start until the Summer of '25
Honest answer, should’ve been investing in canned food yesterday. Today is the next best day to start.
I have trouble seeing anyone risking escalating this beyond the Middle East, so not exactly. Millions could die there, though, and Europe still relies pretty heavily on the Gulf for fuel.
I am not expecting a full scale war on “developed” countries up until China does something. Because, you know, it is against capitalism.
Congratulations to the US for breaking apart any sort of pretension of support for international law by allowing Israel to do whatever the fuck they want. Now we’re going to let the crazed leadership of Iran and Israel to drag everyone around them and abroad into further military conflict. Goddamn morons don’t know how to say “this is too far”.
“Crazed leadership of Iran”…which did a proportional retaliatory attack on Israel.
Israel’s response to Hamas is the crazy and the US backing of the genocide is also pretty crazy.
Of course, Iran isn’t the good guys but take a look and recognize that we are the baddies too!
Ah yes, the turmoil between Muslim and Jewish populations which has only existed since the founding of America in 1776.
I wonder if Biden ever regrets creating such dogmatic differences when he gave birth to the cultures of the fertile crescent.
Israel couldn’t function without continued US support, this isn’t some abstract, the US political establishment enables Israeli atrocities and turns a blind eye to their seizing of territory, even just last month Israel annexed Palestinian territory illegally with the full support of the West.
I think the situation is serious enough to avoid making such ridiculous straw-men.
This is an awful take. Jews and Muslim populations are not separate races that have fought since existence. Israeli’s are mostly German; they do not have a corresponding Muslim population.
- Palestinian Jews and Palestinian Muslims lived fine together till Israel started 75 years ago.
- Same with Iranian Jews and Iranian Muslims.
- Same with Iraqis, Yemenis, and North Africans
Warden (War loving Biden) has focused more on Israel than abortion, legalizing marijuana, equality, health insurance, taxes, and everything else he promised since he has took office.
I’m impressed. Every single thing you just wrote is incorrect. That’s a rare achievement, even around here. “Israeli’s [sic] are mostly German” takes the cake though.
They don’t call them Ashkanazi Jews for no reason. Words have etymology. Ashkanaz is supposedly the Blibical ancestor of the areas centered around Germany, including Poland. This is why their language is derivative of German (Yiddish). Ober time they moved north into Ukraine and Russia, so Yiddish developed some Slavic words.
TIL 1.3% is mostly from wiki
also learned that 20% muslim arabs dont exist
As of 2019, Arab citizens of Israel composed 21 percent of the country’s total population.[54] About 82 percent of the Arab population in Israel are Sunni Muslims, a very small minority are Shia Muslims, another 9 percent are Druze, and around 9 percent are Christian (mostly Eastern Orthodox and Catholic denominations).
Everything from the table in your image is still considered as “German Jews.”
Arab Israelis are what Israelis call certain Palestinians but mostly the Bedouin that never identified as Palestinian (generally the desert south where nationality isn’t the norm). It’s not an accident that Israel is considered a Western nation. The people are from Europe (not that there’s anything wrong with Western values; it’s just they should belong in the countries developed them as their own culture).
Bedouin make for about 10% of all muslims in Israel
In 2019, the official number of Arab residents in Israel was 1,890,000 people
According to the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs, as of 1999, 110,000 Bedouins live in the Negev, 50,000 in the Galilee and 10,000 in the central region of Israel
and most jews arent european either
There are no government statistics categorizing Israeli Jews as “Ashkenazi”, “Mizrahi”, etc, but studies and estimates have been conducted.[50][51] In a 2019 study, in a sample meant to be representative of the Israeli Jewish population, about 44.9% percent of Israel’s Jewish population were categorized as Mizrahi (defined as having grandparents born in North Africa or Asia), 31.8% were categorized as Ashkenazi (defined as having grandparents born in Europe, the Americas, Oceania and South Africa), 12.4% as “Soviet” (defined as having progenitors who came from the ex-USSR in 1989 or later), about 3% as Beta Israel (Ethiopia) and 7.9% as a mix of these, or other Jewish group
in what country does jewish culture belongs?
Those in the area of places like Nazareth are simply Palestinians. Some of them seem to have a “Palestinian-Israeli” identity. As of now; they know of their Palestinian origins. They follow Palestinian traditions and are now starting to protest the war in Gaza (though it took them 6 months to get permission to protest I guess – perhaps you can clarify).
I’ll give you Haifa where so many Palestinians were killed or purged out, Arab culture may have gotten weaker. I have read that Haifa Palestinians fit best in Israeli society.
Looking around on the internet, I see that Jaffa has an actual “Palestinian” (not Palestinian-Israeli or Arab Israeli) identifying position. Which makes sense as Jaffa was a Palestinian town and Tel Aviv was built around it.
There are no government statistics categorizing Israeli Jews as “Ashkenazi”, “Mizrahi”, etc, but studies and estimates have been conducted.[50][51] In a 2019 study,
Is this self-identified or is it genetic based? I’m a little curious on how Israeli culture is affected by European Jews raising a lot of the North African
in what country does jewish culture belongs?
This is a loaded question. The Palestinians had to be pushed around a lot. I see posts about how Gaza actually had many Palestinian refugees. The issue isn’t Israeli’s are mainly Jewish; it’s about the crimes done by foreign actors against Palestinians who are the natives of Palestine. Your question FEELS more like “should not we keep punishing Palestinians for getting in the way of setting up a country on their land?” Another way to put it is why are Palestinians still paying for Hitler’s atrocities while Germany is doing so well?
Also, Germany and France have a lot of antisemitic laws, to answer your question directly.
edit: I guess I should call those laws anti-antisemitic laws
TIL 1.3% is mostly from wiki
When classified over a single generation, sure.
I’m not sure if you’re aware but there was a massive migration about 80 years ago, and not many of those people are still around. That’s the 1.3%. Their offspring are the 44%
the data refers to 2019 there were many migrations most of which were not from europe
Inflight Emergency (IFE) declared via squawk 7700 for USAF tanker, now returning to al-Udeid from over Iraq (electrical).
QUICK UPDATE:
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Iran names the operation “The Promise of Truth.”
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Israeli aircraft are positioned over western Iraq.
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Interceptions have commenced over Jordan and Syria. A number of middle east Arab states announcing that they’ll knock down anything in their skies
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Incidents of drones crashing in western Iraq have been reported.
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Iranian media suggests that ballistic missiles will be launched from Iran in the early hours of the morning.
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Airspace across the Middle East is closed
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Al-Arabiya reports that British fighter jets are now involved in operation to interceptal Iranian drones launched against Israel
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6 p.m. ET Isreal should start to see missles, rockets and drones
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The world is waking up to the fact that treaties are just papers and words mean nothing. Basically what Hitler did 80 years ago but now it’s every leader.
https://t.me/pravdaGerashchenko_en/31824
Iran has officially declared the start of the attack on Israel. “The evil regime will be punished,” its leader said.
Iran, the Houthis from Yemen, Syria, Hezbollah are performing massive strikes on Israel with drones and missiles. Over 200 combat drones and missiles are in the air - media.
Iran’s defense minister: “We will also perform a strike on those who open their airspace or territory to Israel to attack Iran.”
https://t.me/combatfootageua/15045
*iran defends itself after israel brazenly attacked their embassy in syria
Unfortunately, that wont deter them
Two shiteaters squabble. More at 6
