- cross-posted to:
- hackernews@lemmy.smeargle.fans
- hackernews@derp.foo
- cross-posted to:
- hackernews@lemmy.smeargle.fans
- hackernews@derp.foo
Apple has a memory problem and we’re all paying for it::Apple still sells expensive “Pro” computers with just 8GB of RAM and charges a fortune for more.
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Alternate title: Apple charges fortune for underspecced machines, morons still buy them
Please tell me, as someone who has not given Apple money in over a decade, how I am paying for this.
Apple fans will say with a straight face they can’t use anything other than a Mac.
Apple fan here, and I love what they’ve done with hardware the last few years. That said…. I have to agree. Base RAM config is silly low, and higher RAM and SSD configs are stupid expensive. It’s a money maker for sure, I wish it wasn’t so obviously a cash grab. I’d be ok with a bit more padding in the base hardware price if the ram wasn’t so expensive to upgrade.
In the old days this was a moot point because you buy base config and immediately swap for after market big sticks- I did that for decades, but these days with soldered RAM and storage…. Eh, it’s a bit of a kick in the balls.
I am stoked for my new M3 next week though, good thing work pays for it!
Imagine if you had to buy it yourself. Really. Screw apple. I’m done with their blatant manipulation and control.
Apple fan here
asking for contempt? ;-)
Jealousy is more like it. MacOS is amazing.
MacOS is the worst part about Apple. Their hardware is amazing, but the software (third and first party) sucks.
How so? It’s a polished Unix desktop that runs most open-source and a bunch of proprietary apps, including Final Cut and Logic. It’s natively POSIX and has a proper shell.
It’s alright. Personal preference has me sticking with Linux, and I’ll never touch Windows with a ten foot pole if I can avoid it, but MacOS is certainly commendable.
Before I went Linux, I daily drove hackintoshes for a decade or so - back when the hardware was bad and the software was first class. Now it’s the other way around!
If Asahi ever get their kernel perfect, I’m definitely buying a modern MacBook Pro. No doubt about it.
I was watching a Twitch stream from a programmer and he said the same thing, about Apple switching from bad hardware/good software to good hardware/bad software. I do think modern macOS is so much better than modern Windows, but it’s far from where it was. Though that might just be me being nostalgic; 10.5-10.9 (Leopard to Mavericks) was my personal “golden age”.
I would argue modern MacOS is not “bad software” per se, it’s just nothing to write home about. Back in the heyday you describe, it was innovative and quite spectacular compared to the competition. Nowadays it’s rivals are better featured in many respects, but it still does everything it needs to.
I haven’t had any problems 🤷♂️
Many Linux distros support Mac devices.
For what? Or at what?
If you were asking that genuinely I’d answer. But I’m trolling you all just as much as you think you’re trolling me.
I’ve barely used MacOS, so it’s a genuine question
MacOS is extremely barebones. Almost two years ago I got a MacBook to work on a customer project. Until then I’ve only been on Linux and Windows 10. And boy was I in for a surprise. I kind of got used to it, but let me give you a few examples.
You want to tab between windows and not apps? Better pay for an app. You want to snap your windows left or right? An app. You want to control which app outputs to which audio device? You guessed it - an app. Clipboard? App. Configure mouse acceleration? An app (linear mouse).
I mean, the OS is polished and looks great. And if all you do is swoosh windows left and right in Starbucks, that’s all you need. But for anyone else it’s just sad how little it supports out of the box.
Jesus Christ it has most of those things. What are you even talking about?
PEBCAK
Can you point me at the right settings? I googled around and that’s what I found. Maybe I came up with old results which aren’t up to date?
I will answer any specific questions you want to know about macOS. You mentioned a number of things above, so what would you like assistance with?
Alight, thanks. Let’s see if I can explain this.
I couldn’t find native support for the following:
- snap windows left and right with keyboard shortcuts (Win Key + Arrows on Windows)
- set a default output device (eg speakers), but select apps (Spotify for example) should output through my USB DAC.
- I can tab between applications, but the only way to tab between all active Windows was with a third party app. It mostly works fine, but has a few quirks.
Yyyeeeeaaaaa…… those all exist within MacOS natively.
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So maybe I missed it or we are talking about the same things. Can you point me at the right thing to look for? Since you seem to be aware how these work natively.
- snapping windows by keyboard shortcuts (Win Key + Arrows on Windows)
- I want to have one output device by default (eg speakers), but select apps (Spotify for example) should output through my USB DAC.
- I can tab between applications no problem, but when I looked up how to change between windows of the same app (eg text editors), I came up with nothing. How is the shortcut called?
Cheers
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The closing sentence of the article…
“as Apple customers, we shouldn’t stand for it”
Apple customers…
“Here’s my $200”
You missed a 0
“we’re all paying for it”
Journalism these days is fucking awful
It’s from a news organisation called “MacWorld”. What were you expecting exactly?
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Yep. I am reminded of 3.5mm audio jack being removed from phones because Tim Cook was ‘brave’.
Well I do think the high cost of expansion RAM in Apple products is tied to school shootings, gerrymandering, and the prison industrial complex.
That is in the context of “Apple customers”.
Just a thought.
If I’m being generous, it’s macworld.com speaking to an audience of Apple users.
But no, I am not paying for it. I’m over here drooling at M1 chips, but then stopping when I see the baggage that comes with it.
Ms are only worth drooling over as far as power consumption. Relatively cheap 7840u outperforms M2 in every benchmark. I9s are just in a completely different league.
I’ll wait for Snapdragon X Elite from a more reasonable company or a RISC-V chip in a Linux laptop if stars really align.
[…] we’re all paying for it
How? How am I paying for Apple’s shortcomings?
Well, every competitor to Apple used to have expandable storage on their flagship phones. Removable batteries too that were a breeze to replace if they went bad. They all copied apple, and terrible storage and glued in batteries that are hard to replace is standard now. U have to pay 100 x what a micro SD for the same amount of storage would be, and replacing a battery, while possible to do on your own now requires special knowledge and tools. If you’re building your own PC, it probably doesn’t affect your PC, but laptops have also followed suit. Glued in batteries/ hard drives are the norm, and it’s way harder to modify a shelf model laptop than it was 10 years ago. Apple is the King of enshittification. I’m so tired of companies copying them and all their greedy, customer fucking moves.
i’m still mad about the headphone jack.
Often the cheaper models from a company will have a headphone jack. Sadly the moment you go for a higher model they expect you to use wireless headphones ( cause you got money anyway right…right).
that also means that they can add the headphone jack to the more expensive ones, but they won’t because you pay more money for the device… how does that make sense?
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Yes, with the exception of Sony. All their phones have headphone jacks.
They did remove them but the outcry from customers we so bad they put them back on immediately.
I have the Xperia 10iii and love it. I use the headphone jack all the time. And the SD card of course. I couldn’t imagine using a phone with headphone jack and SD card slot.
I almost included that in the rant lol, but it was long enough
Modularity/expand-ability comes at a cost. Both monetary cost and performance cost. We used to have gpus with expandable memory but we dont anymore.
Thats because by having the memory integrated into the board, we can put it much closer to the chip, greatly increasing the bandwidth and lowering the latency. This is exactly what Apple has done with its memory and why it isnt expandable anymore. Apple’s memory is 5x+ faster than ddr5 in terms of bandwidth. Also you fully take advantage of the entirety of the available memory bus, instead of having empty lanes chilling for potential upgrades.
By having an integrated battery, you can have the battery have all kinds of wacky shapes that fill your design better.
Having a microsd slot takes a lot of space and can result into a significant degraded user experience if the user uses a slow microsd. And even a fast microsd is slower than integrated storage.
All these things are possible but they come with some sacrifices. Part of the change is because of enshittification but some changes is because they make sense.
“We” is referring to Apple customers.
Yea this is a Macworld article.
Memory is memory. Apple’s attempt at branding these machines as “different” as if they were more efficient at using that memory, is absolutely fucking stupid. These Pro machines are used for large file operations like videos, and their response is simply “guess you need to pay more”.
I feel like they’re trying to get back to the PPC days where generally available parts are not cheap. I hope plenty of cheap alternatives show up on Newegg or wherever. Fuck this bullshit.
Memory is memory
Definitely not true hardware-wise. L2 cache is different from DDR3 RAM is different from DDR4 RAM… in price and performance
Software-wise, yes, the operating system abstracts away the differences and memory is memory
Apple’s memory upgrade costs are probably 90% usual Apple bullshit pricing, 10% grounded in reality. I’m thinking that the 10% may be something like the motherboards are designed without memory upgrades in mind, so if you want more RAM, they have to use a special mobo which they prefab less of
Apple’s “memory upgrade” is making the claim that you can do with half for the same amount of work on x86. It is 100% untrue.
You tried to delve into speed. But speed won’t outpace a 1TB video file you’re trying to edit. If you’re working with smaller chunks of smaller files that have fast operations ONLY, then make claim as such. This is a ploy for upgrade cash, plain and simple. Nothing about these chips moves the needle on memory usage BY HALF. What a dumbass thing to assert as a company.
Apple’s claim isnt 100% untrue tbh. It depends on the operations actually. Arm processors have at least 12 registers to contain data or references to memory. A program does need more ram space on a x86 processor, as it only has like 4 registers afaik ( correct me if im wrong! ) so it needs to push data more often to the stack.
This means that the m* processors has to generally save less info in memory. However, data is still data and you still need memory to contain the data youre processing so you still need the ram. So like, when doing video work that apple claim is utter bullshit. Raw calculations however might not be so much bullshit
For many memory intensive operation, this is incorrect since by that logic, Apple’s chip should use far more memory due to having quarter as many registers for those purpose. (32x64 vs. 32x256)
Most processors have cache memories for reasons you stated.
Correct, cache exists for that reason. But youre still loosing time and space by saving it to memory ( cache is just faster acccess for the cpu. Its still in ram or in the pipeline to be pushed to ram on next flush ).
Also true, per thread you would need more memory to save the cpu’s state when switching threads. Now i kinda want to do some calculations and tests to see at what point it gets better.
I always figured that per thread more memory is needed, but that the thread itself needed less memory ( or time to access it ) because it can contain more temp values in the cpu’s registers.Again though, there claim is bullshit or not totally depends on the kind of work youre doing and for video work i consider it bullshit as well :')
A semi isn’t a Ford F150. That’s the end of that argument.
Memory speed doesn’t really matter if your apps start thrashing
Edit: thrashing is very likely to occur on something marketed as “pro”. I have a work PC with 8gb of RAM, and my job requires me to edit video. I need to be careful on how big my video files are, because it WILL start thrashing. This is the reality. Professional apps require a lot of memory pages, and they are never open on their own.
Edit 2: I guess the thoughts from a computer scientist are less important than corporate marketing.
Apple uses a unified memory where the memory chips are embedded on the SoC in the first place. The memory modules are on the same silicon wafer the chip is cut from, not separately on the Mobo, and shared directly with the chip in a single pool of memory that the CPU and GPU can access, rather than dedicated memory for each.
Changing the memory means cutting a different piece of silicon for it.
The SoC and memory are separate dies with different manufacturing processes. In the case of M2 it was TSMC for the SoC and SK Hynix for the memory.
When it comes time to package them together, the SoC and memory are soldered to a interposer layer. So the only difference is which size memory chips they solder together for the different memory configurations available.
That’s like building a fast car that can only go straight. It’s impressive but short-sighted and therefore stupid.
There are specific performance benefits to soldering your memory to the board or making them part of the main die itself. It’s why GPUs have been doing it for a long time, and why laptops with soldered ram can often achieve higher clocks and lower latency than their socketed counterparts. It’s a tradeoff, but a calculated one. I’m sure Apple also adds the extra revenue from absurd upgrade costs into their calculations.
Somebody has never been to a top fuel drag race. Impressive does not even begin to describe what those “fast cars that can only go straight” are capable of.
Ha ha. Most people don’t use their laptops exclusively for one single thing. I sometimes need a laptop that can go fast but more often it needs to be able to many different things. And some years later, let me swap in some more RAM and an SSD to give it another few good years.
Apple uses a unified memory where the memory chips are embedded on the SoC in the first place. The memory modules are on the same silicon wafer the chip is cut from, not separately on the Mobo
This is 100% false. All Apple Silicon Macs use standard LPDDR4X or LPDDR5 memory chips, the same as are used in other computers, which are soldered on a PCB next to the SoC. They are not on the same die. The high memory bandwidth on M1/M2/M3 comes from having a lot of memory controllers built into the SoC – it’s akin to a PC with an 8+ channel memory setup. As far as I’m aware, there’s nothing technically preventing Apple from making an Apple Silicon mac with socketed memory again, other than those sweet sweet profits for shareholders.
I mean why let them bullshit even 10% ?
“There might be some hard to find small benefit here, maybe.”
That just sounds like you want it to be true, but deep down you know it isn’t.
Shit like this is apple play book from the nineties, especially “we need less ram” and “our clock cycles are better”.
It wasn’t.
I absolutely love Apple Silicon—the performance to power ratio is wonderful, and the high-speed memory makes things like LLMs work great—but the RAM upcharge is insane, and shipping anything “Pro” with 8GB of RAM should be criminal in 2023.
I really hope that Qualcomm can make some noise with their new laptop/desktop processors. Anything to light a fire under Apple’s ass and make them stop skimping on RAM.
I cannot +1 this hard enough. There was once upon a time, back in the Darwin days, when I had my eyes on a Macbook as my next computer. Apple Silicon almost got me there again. I’m itching for a Snapdragon X Elite Oryon OMGLOLBBQ SBC, but I’m not holding my breath. I bet laptop makers snap up all the chips for 2024, and then I get one in 2025.
Which LLM are you running on your macbook?
Not an LLM, but stable diffusion runs on them… Very slowly due to extreme swap usage.
I’ve been using an iPad with m1 for a while, can’t wait to get this power on a regular machine… but the ram price makes me want to wait another gen at least.
Microsoft’s exclusivity deal with Qualcomm expires soon, so there should be more options coming around. After all this time, RISC will finally change everything (without getting into the technical details of how it did already).
Damn, even my phone got 8GB memory
My phone (pixel 6 pro) has 12gb and it’s a 2021 model. It’s outrageous a pro laptop only has 8.
My phone is a Galaxy A52 from 2021. Not even a flagship. It costed me around $500 new.
My phone (Moto G Stylus 5G 2022) costed $300 and has 8GB RAM and 256GB storage
It seemed obvious to me that they do this so that they can say the MBP costs “as low as X”, but in fact everyone needs to pay at least $200 more
I’m not paying for it, I just go to downloadmoreram.com, DUH
I don’t pay for the computer, I just go to downloadmorecomputer.biz
This is the way
We are? Pretty sure I ain’t.
Yeah, I’m not complaining either
RAM is boring… THE FINISH IS TITANIUM!!!
THAT’S LITERALLY OUR ENTIRE MARKETING CAMPAIGN!
Yes. Unfortunately people who buy Apple don’t care. This is what happens when you prioritise brand and design over functionality. You end up paying more for the brand (worse shit, but hey you can feel good about buying such a great product!).
As an Apple user: I do care. However, the alternative is using Windows, which makes me wanna punch my monitor at least once a month. And I’m not even using it as a primary OS.
I don’t prioritize design and don’t care about brand at all but I care about a frust free experience and I just don’t have that with windows.
Running a hackintosh was less frustrating than using windows on the very same hardware…
If Linux supported the software and the features I need/want, I would very much just use that
There are things in Mac that also make me want to punch my monitor. No tree view in Finder, so I have to open two windows to copy stuff? No titles in the launcher so I have to scroll over all the windows to find the one I need? It’s a nightmare for working with documents. I much prefer windows for that.
What does Windows do to make you want to punch your monitor?
For example (and that is only one out of many over the years), on my one PC search just refused to work. Windows search isn’t great but not having it is even worse than that and no matter what I did, neither the search in the Start menu nor in the Explorer worked. Couldn’t type in anything. If I opened the on screen keyboard, it did work but not with my physical one. I even reinstalled Windows from scratch and it worked for a few weeks and then stopped again. No one why. Only got fixed once I went back to Win 10.
Another Example is Microsofts over-insistence to force Edge, bing, OneDrive, Office365, etc. on you. It feels like, once a month, when I log in, I get a splash screen to please subscribe to one of those services and also use Bing and also, they put the Edge icon back onto my Desktop.
It’s things like those that just annoy the shit out of me. I want to use my PC, not to constantly fix it. And it’s a myriad of other thing like that. Some small, some bigger.
It’s not that macOS is better in every way, there are a few things Windows undoubtedly does better (like having a keyboard shortcut to open the file explorer) but for my day to day use, macOS has kept out of my way and just done what it’s supposed to. And sadly macOS is a package deal with Macs, which are great, hardware wise but also very expensive. But considering the software advantage, the Apple tax is worth it, at least to some extent
I personally never had much problems with Windows 11, but I fully understand the edge frustration. I used MacOS for many years, but not without tweaking and porting the hell out of it. The problem with Apple for me is their lack of reparability and the absurd prices of their hardware. I now mostly use Linux, although it’s far from perfect and nowhere near as good as some claim, so I’m still forced to stick with Windows.
Use “everything” by VoidTools to search the file system. It’s the perfect search tool, very powerful and lightning fast.
Noted. Does it also start programs?
You can click on the files it shows, and if it’s a .exe file you can start the program
So it’s not useful for that. But having a decent search is defs a pro.
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If Windows didn’t wanna make me punch my monitor at least once a month, that’d be a good deal…
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Problem: the software I primarily use under Windows are
• Photoshop • A 20 year old negative scanner software • Games
The latter is less of a problem nowadays, however, I‘d like to use HDR in supported titles and Linux HDR support wasn’t really a thing yet, last time I checked…
Same with macOS, I primarily use proprietary software that doesn’t have a Linux version, nor decent Linux alternatives
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Doesn’t solve the negative scanner and HDR issues though… The scanner has a solution, in theory, however I’m not ready to spend 100€ on scanner software for Linux, when the 20 y/o free software works just fine…
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That I‘d love to replace my Windows with Linux but QEMU is not a solution for my problems.
I am having the same feeling towards the Mac I have to use at work. That stupid piece of shit is just a usability nightmare. I’ve no idea why people insist on Apple products being simpler or more efficient to use. It’s just not true.
I guess it depends on individual preferences and experiences
To each their own, after having had the ‘pleasure’ of maintaining a fleet of Macs I’m personally quite happy with Windows these days. I’m never touching anything running MacOS ever again, that bullshit OS almost made me want to practice my frisbee skills on more than one occasion. Stability issues galore, that stupid single menubar that changes depending on which window has focus, crap like ‘sudo rm somefile’ failing with a ‘not enough disk space remaining to remove file’ error message when the disk is full, and many many other issues that were such a pita to solve. MacOS feels like having to work with one hand tied behind your back and a hammer in the other. Never again.
I mean, some of those are preference things. I like the menu bar on top because it’s easy to home in on it. It’s always up there. For every program. No searching.
I cannot complain about stability, either. I had a hackintosh running macOS on PC hardware, that was more stable than Windows on the same machine…
And I also rarely do things in the terminal besides ssh-ing into my Linux server…
I’d agree though, that Windows is easier to maintain. It’s just a pain in the ass to daily drive, because, at least in my experience, something will always refuse to work for no apparent reason, even though it’s supposed to.
It’s even worse when you consider there’s no dedicated video memory, so this is shared between graphics and the rest of the system.
